GT40BB specs/opinions Turbo experts?
05-11-03, 05:25 PM
#76
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My point from the beginning has been that a timeslip can give you a pretty good idea what power a car is making, it by no means gives you a 100% accurate power figure, but it gives you a good indication of where its at.
With the Supras, they might run a 13 second pass, but at 140mph. Just from the terminal speed you can tell the car has a bunch of power but obviously fucked up the launch.
The opposite also applies, a car runs a high 11 but at 102mph, the car more than likely launched like a demon, but doesn't have the top end pull (Or he missed a gear!
)
With Angus' car, he is running the ET and terminal to suggest he is making 500rwhp or very ******* close to it. If you call tell the difference between 480 and 500hp by the seat of your pants, good luck to you.
With the Supras, they might run a 13 second pass, but at 140mph. Just from the terminal speed you can tell the car has a bunch of power but obviously fucked up the launch.
The opposite also applies, a car runs a high 11 but at 102mph, the car more than likely launched like a demon, but doesn't have the top end pull (Or he missed a gear!
) With Angus' car, he is running the ET and terminal to suggest he is making 500rwhp or very ******* close to it. If you call tell the difference between 480 and 500hp by the seat of your pants, good luck to you.
05-11-03, 06:10 PM
#77
Originally posted by AJC13B
I would take a time slip showing 10.0 over a dyno sheet showing whatever, any day, as would nearly ever car enthusiast known to man.
I would take a time slip showing 10.0 over a dyno sheet showing whatever, any day, as would nearly ever car enthusiast known to man.
Originally posted by AJC13B
When Subaru changed the shape of the WRX, power went up but 1/4 mile times went down. What did the general public as a whole complain about? Its slower. But a dyno graph shows its got more power! Surely that means its faster!
When Subaru changed the shape of the WRX, power went up but 1/4 mile times went down. What did the general public as a whole complain about? Its slower. But a dyno graph shows its got more power! Surely that means its faster!
There must be a reason why professional race teams all use dynos. One of which it is the only real method of computing the output of any engine. Sure different dynos can give different results whether they are over or under estimates, but if the testing is all done on the same dyno, then you can positively say that it is up or down on power from the previous test and mods. How good are the dynos the top teams use? I would imagine they pretty accurate.
Do pro stock teams design a manifold and test it on the track? Of course they do, but only after they test it on the dyno. As quoted by a pro team "Over the winter we concentrated on making everything on the truck right. Dave Monday spent a lot on time working with us to get the chassis perfect. Then it was dyno, dyno, dyno. With everyone in the class so close, I know a couple extra horsepower here and there can make a big difference. Anyway, that was our strategy. So far, so good."
That just shows that a dyno is a tuning tool that theoretically shows the ability of a given car to run faster negating all other variables. Racing however is made of to many variables to account for all of them which is why calculating engine power from time slips is simply not accurate, intuitivley and factually. I will accept that it can give a rough ball park figure of what the engine is putting out though.
Can a timeslip accurately provide a tiny increase/ decrease in power after a minor modification?
btw, just for ***** and giggles,my girlfriend (a physicist) who knows only a tidbit about cars asked what this argument was over and I told her about the two methods (dyno vs. times) of calculating engine power and without hesitation she thought there were to many varialbles in calculating power accurately via timeslips.
05-11-03, 06:26 PM
#78
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally posted by RX-Heven
There must be a reason why professional race teams all use dynos. One of which it is the only real method of computing the output of any engine. Sure different dynos can give different results whether they are over or under estimates, but if the testing is all done on the same dyno, then you can positively say that it is up or down on power from the previous test and mods. How good are the dynos the top teams use? I would imagine they pretty accurate.
Do pro stock teams design a manifold and test it on the track? Of course they do, but only after they test it on the dyno. As quoted by a pro team "Over the winter we concentrated on making everything on the truck right. Dave Monday spent a lot on time working with us to get the chassis perfect. Then it was dyno, dyno, dyno. With everyone in the class so close, I know a couple extra horsepower here and there can make a big difference. Anyway, that was our strategy. So far, so good."
That just shows that a dyno is a tuning tool that theoretically shows the ability of a given car to run faster negating all other variables. Racing however is made of to many variables to account for all of them which is why calculating engine power from time slips is simply not accurate, intuitivley and factually. I will accept that it can give a rough ball park figure of what the engine is putting out though.
Can a timeslip accurately provide a tiny increase/ decrease in power after a minor modification?
btw, just for ***** and giggles,my girlfriend (a physicist) who knows only a tidbit about cars asked what this argument was over and I told her about the two methods (dyno vs. times) of calculating engine power and without hesitation she thought there were to many varialbles in calculating power accurately via timeslips.
There must be a reason why professional race teams all use dynos. One of which it is the only real method of computing the output of any engine. Sure different dynos can give different results whether they are over or under estimates, but if the testing is all done on the same dyno, then you can positively say that it is up or down on power from the previous test and mods. How good are the dynos the top teams use? I would imagine they pretty accurate.
Do pro stock teams design a manifold and test it on the track? Of course they do, but only after they test it on the dyno. As quoted by a pro team "Over the winter we concentrated on making everything on the truck right. Dave Monday spent a lot on time working with us to get the chassis perfect. Then it was dyno, dyno, dyno. With everyone in the class so close, I know a couple extra horsepower here and there can make a big difference. Anyway, that was our strategy. So far, so good."
That just shows that a dyno is a tuning tool that theoretically shows the ability of a given car to run faster negating all other variables. Racing however is made of to many variables to account for all of them which is why calculating engine power from time slips is simply not accurate, intuitivley and factually. I will accept that it can give a rough ball park figure of what the engine is putting out though.
Can a timeslip accurately provide a tiny increase/ decrease in power after a minor modification?
btw, just for ***** and giggles,my girlfriend (a physicist) who knows only a tidbit about cars asked what this argument was over and I told her about the two methods (dyno vs. times) of calculating engine power and without hesitation she thought there were to many varialbles in calculating power accurately via timeslips.
Last edited by RICE RACING; 05-11-03 at 06:32 PM.
05-11-03, 07:17 PM
#79
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rx heaven - The subaru got heavier, hence it being slower.
And for your second point, sure they made changes and made sure they made extra peak power, but if the car went slower after the changes were made, what would happen? Like I have said numerous times, its all well and good for a bit of paper to say you have more power, but in the real world it could potentially mean nothing.
And at no point did I state that basing engine power off a timeslip would provide an accurate figure, but a ball park figure. The only real way to find out what your engine is making, is to put it on an engine dyno. Then ALL variables are removed.
And for your second point, sure they made changes and made sure they made extra peak power, but if the car went slower after the changes were made, what would happen? Like I have said numerous times, its all well and good for a bit of paper to say you have more power, but in the real world it could potentially mean nothing.
And at no point did I state that basing engine power off a timeslip would provide an accurate figure, but a ball park figure. The only real way to find out what your engine is making, is to put it on an engine dyno. Then ALL variables are removed.
05-11-03, 07:33 PM
#80
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Peak, spread, averages all have to be looked at, if you use a chassis dyno Steve I highly recommend a dynapack it will give you this accurate data without having to remove the engine and all the accessories to replicate what power you will get in the car (i.e. exhaust system, cooling system, ign etc etc)
Use a good program like car test 2000 and simply plot your power curve onto this and do some analysis, it will same you lots of broke parts chasing a time to prove how fast the car is with the new engine (power characteristics) see what gearing will work to match your engine's characteristics and you will soon see how fast your car can be or can't be.
I agree with you peak power is not everything & as always knowledge is everything It's all about matching your basic parts to get that all important time slip you are after
Use a good program like car test 2000 and simply plot your power curve onto this and do some analysis, it will same you lots of broke parts chasing a time to prove how fast the car is with the new engine (power characteristics) see what gearing will work to match your engine's characteristics and you will soon see how fast your car can be or can't be.
I agree with you peak power is not everything & as always knowledge is everything It's all about matching your basic parts to get that all important time slip you are after
05-11-03, 07:51 PM
#81
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
I would like to see people post what power they make in ranges from 5k to 9k rpms for example. Then it will be far easier to see how fast a certain car will be.
Typical car mated to a stock mazda box will average
5-9k for 1st,2nd
6.2-9k 2nd,3rd
6.5-9k 3rd,4th
If your donk is made to suit this range of rpm you can see that if you rev her this hard then performance below this speed range 5k rpm is not going to have any bearing on how fast your car will be
Steve when you get your car dynoed can you post the rpm ranges as well? Like on a dynojet/dynapack graph for example, it would be good to get this data if you feel like sharing it?
Typical car mated to a stock mazda box will average
5-9k for 1st,2nd
6.2-9k 2nd,3rd
6.5-9k 3rd,4th
If your donk is made to suit this range of rpm you can see that if you rev her this hard then performance below this speed range 5k rpm is not going to have any bearing on how fast your car will be
Steve when you get your car dynoed can you post the rpm ranges as well? Like on a dynojet/dynapack graph for example, it would be good to get this data if you feel like sharing it?
05-11-03, 08:43 PM
#82
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A quote from a learn-ed soul
at the end of the day you either race dynos (eg Dyno challenge) or you race cars...
Comparison requires commonality. an A-grade qtr mile here is the same as a A-grade qtr mile in Puerto Rico or New Jersey. So a (non corrected for altitude or temp) time slip is a truly transportable measure. Dyno charts aren't. They are a nice measure of relative performance for tuning purposes.
Having a nice dyno chart doesn't count for jack **** when you are still looking at the other guys tail lights as you cross the finish line.
Comparison requires commonality. an A-grade qtr mile here is the same as a A-grade qtr mile in Puerto Rico or New Jersey. So a (non corrected for altitude or temp) time slip is a truly transportable measure. Dyno charts aren't. They are a nice measure of relative performance for tuning purposes.
Having a nice dyno chart doesn't count for jack **** when you are still looking at the other guys tail lights as you cross the finish line.
05-11-03, 09:09 PM
#83
Mad Man
Steve doesn't dyno over 11,000 rpm (usually)
I think that it is time to say to each his own...
I have gathered invaluable information from both Steve, and Pete, although not in this thread
The key to my thread was, and is, that the more information RX7 owners share, the faster we will go as a group. For those with top secret combos, go some where else, you don't belong on a forum, you belong in a closet.
The fastest, and the most powerful Supras in the world have their hoods open for all to see. Further they post their combinations, complete with SAE dynos, AND time slips, or race results to the forums so that others may be able to achieve similar results. Five years ago the power levels that are being achieved today were thought to be impossible on a stock bottom end, today you can buy the package for 5000.00-10000.00, and have 650-850rwhp. That is not the end of it, but it is a start. To Steves point, what is the point if you can't get it down the track, BUT, I agree with Pete that you will never get down the track if you cannot make the power in the first place.
Steve, I doubt that you do not evaluate your engines potential and the tuning of it on a dyno. Pete you obviously appreciate the need to get down, or around the track, or you would not have invested in the Race Logic system. You are both smart, right, and you both know it.
I realize I too have over simplified the argument with the hope of ending it, but I think the question was, is the turbo sizing that I suggested a promising one in the opinion of Pete, Steve, and others who have demonstrated time and again that they understand what it takes to make a seven fast. I am not taking sides, only thanking you both for the information you have shared with me in the past.
Moving forward, I will continue to lobby all Seven owners to share what they can, so we can all go faster, and break fewer engines.
Carl Byck
I think that it is time to say to each his own...
I have gathered invaluable information from both Steve, and Pete, although not in this thread
The key to my thread was, and is, that the more information RX7 owners share, the faster we will go as a group. For those with top secret combos, go some where else, you don't belong on a forum, you belong in a closet.
The fastest, and the most powerful Supras in the world have their hoods open for all to see. Further they post their combinations, complete with SAE dynos, AND time slips, or race results to the forums so that others may be able to achieve similar results. Five years ago the power levels that are being achieved today were thought to be impossible on a stock bottom end, today you can buy the package for 5000.00-10000.00, and have 650-850rwhp. That is not the end of it, but it is a start. To Steves point, what is the point if you can't get it down the track, BUT, I agree with Pete that you will never get down the track if you cannot make the power in the first place.
Steve, I doubt that you do not evaluate your engines potential and the tuning of it on a dyno. Pete you obviously appreciate the need to get down, or around the track, or you would not have invested in the Race Logic system. You are both smart, right, and you both know it.
I realize I too have over simplified the argument with the hope of ending it, but I think the question was, is the turbo sizing that I suggested a promising one in the opinion of Pete, Steve, and others who have demonstrated time and again that they understand what it takes to make a seven fast. I am not taking sides, only thanking you both for the information you have shared with me in the past.
Moving forward, I will continue to lobby all Seven owners to share what they can, so we can all go faster, and break fewer engines.
Carl Byck
05-11-03, 09:14 PM
#84
Mad Man
Steve, what about if he is looking at your tail lights, and he broke two engines getting there, while you hit the dyno, applied known chassis technology and had a beer?
05-11-03, 09:48 PM
#85
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Carl
Supra Guys Rule!
Open, honest information, track times and true dyno results more than enough info to satisfy anyone! all with no attitude .....wish some guys here would take a leaf out of their book.
Some rotary guys seem to surround them selves with too much BS (secrets and big ego's and opinions) in comparison to those guys.
No excuses offered by those guys in relation to dyno outputs, yet it is such an issue here??? Before any *** clown starts shouting them down there are allot that are "flying" on the track with very heavy cars
8.467sec @ 164mph on BFG drag radials and not a wheelie bar in sight
in a very heavy car compared to a Mazda! Maybe those guys value chassis dyno results and figures more than you Steve
Supra Guys Rule!
Open, honest information, track times and true dyno results more than enough info to satisfy anyone! all with no attitude
.....wish some guys here would take a leaf out of their book.Some rotary guys seem to surround them selves with too much BS (secrets and big ego's and opinions) in comparison to those guys.
No excuses offered by those guys in relation to dyno outputs, yet it is such an issue here??? Before any *** clown starts shouting them down there are allot that are "flying" on the track with very heavy cars
8.467sec @ 164mph on BFG drag radials and not a wheelie bar in sight
in a very heavy car compared to a Mazda! Maybe those guys value chassis dyno results and figures more than you Steve
05-11-03, 10:00 PM
#86
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
There not scared to post their dyno sheets, and they have the all important track results some value so highly? So why are some Mazda owners so scared to show their dyno numbers?
I for one will never know? Maybe because they don't deliver the power they claim? Who knows? Who cares any more? I for one don't care what a gt35/40 will do after all this crap, if you have the power you claim show it! By avoiding the issue it shows you have something to hide simple as that.
As stated by others, participate in the forum and share info, most of us do just that for the benifit of all other enthusiasts in making thier own decissions regarding a performance claim.
Till we see a dyno sheet, there will always be a shadow of doubt there for some people. Some will be convinced with a track result others will need more convincing, each to their own
I for one will never know? Maybe because they don't deliver the power they claim? Who knows? Who cares any more? I for one don't care what a gt35/40 will do after all this crap, if you have the power you claim show it! By avoiding the issue it shows you have something to hide simple as that.
As stated by others, participate in the forum and share info, most of us do just that for the benifit of all other enthusiasts in making thier own decissions regarding a performance claim.
Till we see a dyno sheet, there will always be a shadow of doubt there for some people. Some will be convinced with a track result others will need more convincing, each to their own
05-11-03, 10:09 PM
#87
Rotary Enthusiast
Pete i can give you a dyno sheet of my stock blown head gasket, cracked headed corolla if you want, how may HP you want?? 250???
then ill take to the creek and run a 21, you still think it will have 250hp??
what im trying to say is you cant trust dyno figures!!!
then ill take to the creek and run a 21, you still think it will have 250hp??
what im trying to say is you cant trust dyno figures!!!
05-11-03, 10:13 PM
#88
Mad Man
BTW I do own a 97 Supra, but building a 500-600rwhp rx7 is a feat, building a 750hp supra is passe. We build and race these cars because it is our passion, when I pull up at a race, or Sevenstock in a 550rwhp wide body second gen, everyone knows what dedication it took to get there, and they appreciate the acheivement. These cars are unique, it will take the whole community to get to where 500rwhp is both readily acheivable, and reliable. It will not happen overnight, and "infighting" certainly does not get us any closer.
I have given Precision turbo VEs, and some basic flow information on the NA 13B. This was all I could find to help them spec a turbo to do the job that I have mentioned so many times. If anyone has VEs, or any other useful information on a streetported 13B that will help them please contact me, and I will pass it on to them. They are going to take this on as a project, and given the pertinent values I think they can help. These guys build turbos to support everything from road race cars, to 2000hp mustangs. It may be that in the end a properly tuned T66 at 25 psi is the answer, I don't know, but given the right info, these guys do, and they will fill in that piece.
Any comments or info appreciated, Carl Byck
I have given Precision turbo VEs, and some basic flow information on the NA 13B. This was all I could find to help them spec a turbo to do the job that I have mentioned so many times. If anyone has VEs, or any other useful information on a streetported 13B that will help them please contact me, and I will pass it on to them. They are going to take this on as a project, and given the pertinent values I think they can help. These guys build turbos to support everything from road race cars, to 2000hp mustangs. It may be that in the end a properly tuned T66 at 25 psi is the answer, I don't know, but given the right info, these guys do, and they will fill in that piece.
Any comments or info appreciated, Carl Byck
05-11-03, 10:21 PM
#89
Mad Man
10 sec, check this website, Supra guys like us know there is more to it, and they are internally critical of all claims. Point is, just because it can be faked, or doctored doesn't mean you throw out all information generated that way. If you check the site, they question everything from AF ratios to the weather. In the end they have a huge pool of pertinent data that eliminates the bullshitters. How many 10 second sevens are there? How many supras? Why, because they share information, that's why...
http://www.moreboost.org/turbos.htm
http://www.moreboost.org/turbos.htm
05-11-03, 10:34 PM
#90
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Carl - If he didn't tune it prior to racing, its his own damn fault The only reason my car was put on a dyno prior to me running 10.3 was because I didn't want to to drive a car with no exhaust and using fuel that creates its own ozone hole on the street Otherwise there would be no dyno sheet, just a 10.3 timeslip
And yes, the turbos you listed will **** in 500rwhp
Another quote, this time from Vlad Berak, builder of the worlds fastest untubbed rotor:
The only reason my car was put on a dyno prior to me running 10.3 was because I didn't want to to drive a car with no exhaust and using fuel that creates its own ozone hole on the street Otherwise there would be no dyno sheet, just a 10.3 timeslip And yes, the turbos you listed will **** in 500rwhp
Another quote, this time from Vlad Berak, builder of the worlds fastest untubbed rotor:
you can tune to make power on the dyno or on the track, we prefer the latter
Last edited by AJC13B; 05-11-03 at 10:38 PM.
05-11-03, 10:52 PM
#91
Mad Man
Experts can choose where they tune, and those that can afford it MAY choose the track. For commoners like myself I'll take the dyno for power, and the track for chassis tuning, Thank you.
05-11-03, 10:58 PM
#92
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally posted by Carl Byck
10 sec, check this website, Supra guys like us know there is more to it, and they are internally critical of all claims. Point is, just because it can be faked, or doctored doesn't mean you throw out all information generated that way. If you check the site, they question everything from AF ratios to the weather. In the end they have a huge pool of pertinent data that eliminates the bullshitters. How many 10 second sevens are there? How many supras? Why, because they share information, that's why...
http://www.moreboost.org/turbos.htm
10 sec, check this website, Supra guys like us know there is more to it, and they are internally critical of all claims. Point is, just because it can be faked, or doctored doesn't mean you throw out all information generated that way. If you check the site, they question everything from AF ratios to the weather. In the end they have a huge pool of pertinent data that eliminates the bullshitters. How many 10 second sevens are there? How many supras? Why, because they share information, that's why...
http://www.moreboost.org/turbos.htm
i think the problem with a lot of americans is they believe anything they read on the internet!
05-11-03, 11:05 PM
#93
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Originally posted by Carl Byck
Steve, what about if he is looking at your tail lights, and he broke two engines getting there, while you hit the dyno, applied known chassis technology and had a beer?
Steve, what about if he is looking at your tail lights, and he broke two engines getting there, while you hit the dyno, applied known chassis technology and had a beer?
05-11-03, 11:16 PM
#95
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally posted by 10sec rx7
Pete i can give you a dyno sheet of my stock blown head gasket, cracked headed corolla if you want, how may HP you want?? 250???
then ill take to the creek and run a 21, you still think it will have 250hp??
what im trying to say is you cant trust dyno figures!!!
Pete i can give you a dyno sheet of my stock blown head gasket, cracked headed corolla if you want, how may HP you want?? 250???
then ill take to the creek and run a 21, you still think it will have 250hp??
what im trying to say is you cant trust dyno figures!!!
For the record AJC13B when I dynoed my car it took 16 seconds (two runs!!!) I stoped around the corner, filled up with optimax drove 25m to the dyno shop, set the car up to the dyno and punched out 472rwhp twice!(dynapack) no tunning involved I ran it on the dyno as I ran it on the street, I set up all the cars I do this way because this is where they get driven I know many people who do the same! don't sell short peoples demands for a dyno sheet, we are not asking for a doctored piece of crap not worth the paper it's printed on! Just an honest figure and what you did to achieve it, nothing more, nothing less I am sure if I spent time droping my exhaust, running race gas and winding the boost of the clock & tunning my little car into the dyno I too could generate a much much higher figure, that was not the point in my case and I think you will find many enthusiasts not Hollywood Hype merchants are interested in the same thing, no need to trash dyno figures. Like every performance measure there are many ways to cheat if you so feel inclined it's down to the individuals honesty in the end.........I'd like to think that most men on this forum are just that and would be open and honest in this regard to this issue and as such it would be a topic that would not need to be broached with the "majority", for the minority the truth ends up catching up with you sooner or later
05-11-03, 11:17 PM
#96
Mad Man
Like your post? What is lots? If you have a problem with Americans keep it to yourself That will be my last response to your attempt to start another pissing match(which based on the amount of Fosters I drink, I would win ). Seriously, here their are dozens of 10 sec Supras, and a handful of 10 sec 7s. The key is the Supras are street driven, are most of the 10 second RX7s in AU street driven?
Carl
That will be my last response to your attempt to start another pissing match(which based on the amount of Fosters I drink, I would win ). Seriously, here their are dozens of 10 sec Supras, and a handful of 10 sec 7s. The key is the Supras are street driven, are most of the 10 second RX7s in AU street driven?Carl
05-11-03, 11:28 PM
#97
Rotary Enthusiast
Rice,
im as honest as they come,
my car made 407rwhp on 19psi with a 60-1 and ran 10.93@124.97 and backed up with a 10.96@125.01
i have dyno sheet and time cards to prove,
you have given us dyno numbers, now go prove with some time cards,
your car making that sort of power should run in the 10.50-10.20 mark
Dale
im as honest as they come,
my car made 407rwhp on 19psi with a 60-1 and ran 10.93@124.97 and backed up with a 10.96@125.01
i have dyno sheet and time cards to prove,
you have given us dyno numbers, now go prove with some time cards,
your car making that sort of power should run in the 10.50-10.20 mark
Dale
05-11-03, 11:30 PM
#98
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally posted by 10sec rx7
i think the problem with a lot of americans is they believe anything they read on the internet!
i think the problem with a lot of americans is they believe anything they read on the internet!
Most Americans are foth coming with information, and the ones I have dealt with have been totaly professional and very inteligent displaying a high level of engineering understanding and have always been willing to discuss and share information and results.