RICE RACING

Yeah, unless the Dyno dynamics has had it setting altered to give a more favorable result (as explained by A777) or is run in shoot out mode (as explained in the linked thread you posted earlier) in which case it will read more than an American Dynojet.

If he ran it on a dynojet or even a dynapack he would get a pretty accuarte result close to what I predicted, on Dyno Dynamics??? Who the f*ck knows? Ring Pac performance and ask them why they scraped their DD dyno.

I know when it came time to dyno my car before I stayed away from the DD because the level of data it provided and therefore analysis you could carry out on your engine was poor at best in my opinion! Then with all these stories of differences in readouts depending on machine parameters then different software like shootout mode giving results of 770rwhp v's 550rwhp on the same sample test car just make that dyno system a joke.

Is it any wonder that one of the biggest drag rotary work shops in Australia decided to invest over $120 000 in a dynapack?? Not to me it isn't! I decided not to even spend $40 to waste my time on a DD even before all this BS started with the shootout mode exagerated results!

A777 points about using a DD as a guide is about all you can do with that type of dyno the other chassis dyno systems (dynojet & dynapck) along with engine dynos give reliable consistent results which you can depend on, Hell if you could not (extract data for accurate engine/chassis dyno's) every auto manufacturer would stick their car on a 1/4 mile and measure it's time to quote their engine power and torque....I don't think so That is plainly idiotic and wrong, people who complain about engine or chassis dyno's not giving accurate results are either using a **** system or are being lied to from the operator (unit set up to exagerate or lower the true output) or are if the unit is accurate in denial because the figure is lower than they expected it to be.

Simple solution use a reputable dyno and operator and you will know what power you realy do have, otherwise it realy is all just guess work and nothing more, how much of an educated guess depends on what data you have how accurate it is and what level of analysis you want to go to (a quater mile calculator or gneral "simple" formula is not good enough!) You need reams of data pertaining to ratio's, power curves vehicle dynamics, test conditions, vehicle mechanics etc etc to have any hope of guessing correctly..... My estimate of A777's peak engine power I believe to be correct within +-2% so whatever this works out to rwhp on a DD system is anyones guess? on a dynojet in would be in the range I stated previously (just below 500rwhp) to achieve the time and speed he did in that run.

AJC13B

This debate is getting tiresome

You believe what you want Peter, best of luck to you. Live in your world of paper and theories. The rest of us will be out running real numbers while you estimate what numbers you could run based on the curvature of the earth and what phase the moon is in.

Oh yeah, I am sure that Pac got the dyno pack dyno simply because the DD doesn't read right. It would have nothing to do with it being easier and safer to bolt 600rwhp+ directly onto the hubs than strapping it to the ground with cargo straps

relvinnian

To clarify, he never said anything about estimating numbers, just that drag racing is not an accurate way to measure engine power.

My opinion: If you factor in the correct variables, you will get a pretty good estimation of engine power. For those more interested in speed rather than engine efficiency and the engineering aspects, it is a practical way to come up with a good baseline. Peter is right in that it is testing the combination rather than isolating the variables and testing the engine in a direct manner.

RICE RACING

Yes I will continue to believe in facts not hype, show us a reputable dyno sheet to prove your claims?

You only need 490rwhp at maximum to do the time and trap A777 achieved on a std temp/pressure day, if you can't handle that then you have got a problem

Hollywood Hype means ****, you have a track result and I analysed it for you and you still don't beleive the result?? So post a dyno sheet along with the parameters & details run so others can see if it is fact or fiction, untill you or anyone does this then your claims are not backed up facts!

I state again A proper corrected dyno sheet will eliminate all the hype all the variables associated with quoting power made from a track result, as it stands at the moment I can prove to you or anybody that you do not need more than 490rwhp to do what A777 did so that is still a hell of a long way short from your claims which have no basis bare your own pig headedness and constant insults towards my ability to get to the facts!

Keep it up, I will not stop and never will, the negative comments put forward by people like yourself only prove that you have no evidence to back up your claims.

Again dynos are accurate, go find a good one stick your car on it and post the sheet, Dyno Dynamics have issues as outlined in the thread you posted! dynapack and dynojet have never had this cloud of doubt around them at all! The only issue is wether SAE ambient correction has been applied or not. Go stick your gt35/40car on one of these systems and post your sheet. Till then the evidence you have been quoting (A777's time) clearly shows that this car is making far less than 500rwhp period

RICE RACING

My tip, go find a dynapack in your area...they will read a difference if you have the headlighs on (power required from the alternator!)

You will get a good analysis of engine rpm,power and torque, from this you can go do any mod you like. Go back and re dyno (don't worry about ambient as it will be corrected) make sure you test in the same conditions (a/f ratio, engine temp) and you will get a very accurate result of your mods.

Compare your average power from 5k to 8.5k and you will soon tell what will give you better performance, 5k to 8.5k only important for the launch, then focus on the 6.3k to 8.5k zone to match your other 3 ratio's it is very simple and if you have an accuarate repetable dyno source those test results will come out on the track test.

Higher average power over the selected rev bands you use will mean you will be quicker, if you are or not depends on many many things including engine tuning, ambient conditions, track conditions, driver input, chassis tuning & condition (suspension,tires,drive line) you name it the list goes on and on and on!!!

That is why a good dyno sheet is the only way to analyse and engines performance and hence potential vehicle performance.

AJC13B

Peter Peter Peter....

You don't know when to quit do you? Not once in this thread have I insulted you. Yet you say I am pig headed? My negative comments prove that I have no evidence? What negative comments?

My 'claim' is that A777 is making 500rwhp+, your 'analysis' shows he is making around 490rwhp, and then you say he is 'clearly' making less than 500rwhp?! Make up your mind!

Im going to try and stay out of this one now, I am over the headaches. Myself, and thousands of other people will continue to quantify a cars supposed dyno numbers with real world results.

RICE RACING

Yes and thousands of others including car manufacturesrs, race teams & enthusuiasts will choose to analyse engine performance via dyno testing.

They will check their car performance on the track!

RICE RACING

You still fail to understand that there are too many factors to establish what power he is making, it can ONLY be established by running it on an accurate dyno.

I stated he is making no more than 490rwhp, This depends on ambient variables, car variables, driver variables Any one or all of these things will affect the estimated power result!

A dyno does not lie, only people do! Get over it Steve, how many gt35/40kits have been sold in the US & in Australia and there is only 1 person who is "maybe" making 490rwhp at maximum in dynojet terms. Either way I am over it too! Till some gt35/40 driver posts a credible sheet of some description proving otherwise then this turbo is a great myth in terms of outright power & no way in hell will it make anything near this power level in street trim with an air filter and streetable exhaust system attached to it.

As I said prove me wrong post a dyno sheet ! Till then it's just like a broken record lots of claims with no proof to back up the claims.

Dyno sheets prove engine performance
Drag times prove car performance

Simple

Mr rx-7 tt

iTrader: (5)

I wish someone would show a dyno sheet of a GT 35/40...it would end this speculation. AJC 13B You have a new motor with a streetport maybe when you break it in you could post your dyno numbers? Also, adjust the numbers to our Yankee dynojet?

RICE RACING

Well I would like to see an American 13B user using this turbo making 500rwhp.

Lots and Lots of kits have been sold why no solid numbers in this region yet? Are you telling me Americans have no idea how to set up and tune rotaries I highly doubt it

I say this turbo has issues delivering the goods that is why we have never seen a sheet to back up the claims!

Carl Byck

Probably so, that said, A777, and AJC are the guys to do it. I have seen consistent #s from the T66 Q trim, and will use that, or the slightly larger PT67 Q trim. Carl

AJC13B

I would take a time slip showing 10.0 over a dyno sheet showing whatever, any day, as would nearly ever car enthusiast known to man.

Go up to 10 people and say "My car makes 472 SAE corrected horsepower on a normal pressure day" and you will get a blank look followed by "Whats it run on the quarter?" No one cares what a dyno sheet says unless its backed up by numbers.

When Subaru changed the shape of the WRX, power went up but 1/4 mile times went down. What did the general public as a whole complain about? Its slower. But a dyno graph shows its got more power! Surely that means its faster!

A dyno graph proves ******* NOTHING!

Now, Peter, you go sit in your coner and I will sit in mine. You believe what you want, and I will believe what I want.

mr rx7 - A dyno sheet will be provided very soon. Car is now tuned up to 20psi

RICE RACING

It won't even do 600bhp on a 13B! Let alone the 700bhp some vendors quote it as. Don't forget they market it as a rotary kit and they are kidding the buyers into thinking the turbo will support a level of power that has never been achieved or proven in any way shape or form, not even close

What a joke

RICE RACING

Thats your point of vew and thats great, it does (drag time) nothing to prove how much power or what the spread of power is like Stevo!

Dyno graphs prove spread of power and peak power
Drag times prove how fast a car is

RICE RACING

Your logic is flawed.

Ok I will buy a 800bhp engine which makes more average to boot and you can buy the 600bhp engine and if ours cars are the same in every detail and we drive the same and we have the same level of grip who do you think will go faster steve???

You pick an engine based on performance (power, power spread), if I was buying a car I would buy it on it's track time.

Simple prove the power of the engine, not the speed of the car/driver

AJC13B

You really dont know when to quit do you?

Argue till you are blue in the face, makes no difference to me. You have your own theory, I will have mine.

RICE RACING

Yes I will sit in my corner seeing which engine combination makes the most amount of power and over what speed range to know what works and what does not for my driving style and my application.

You on the other hand will simply do what?, pick a lower powered motor or combination just because it did a fast time in what situation under what conditions?

Crazy simply Crazy

RICE RACING

I will quite when everyone realizes how crazy your logic is

Hmmm pick a turbo engine combo because of a time it does? or pick it becasue it makes more peak power and average power form 5.5k to 8.5k rpms for a drag racing application...........decisions decision, what a hard choice to make

This is stupidity of the highest order and I hope peole who read this can see how stupid your argument is of picking drag times over proven engine parameters & performance.

RICE RACING

Just in case you missed it in the other posts

Engine performance is analysed on a dyno chassis or engine.

Car performance is analysed mainly on the race track.

To compare engine performaces of different performing cars you put them on an engine or chassis dyno! not on a f*cking race track!

It's pretty simple logic and is the only way to analyse what engine combo performs best!

AJC13B

See, now you start with the personal insults. Are you sure you want to make this personal?

87GTR

iTrader: (61)

man this tread has gone to hell...

relvinnian

I can promise you right now of two people right here in Columbus, Ohio that will be dynoing over 500rwhp with a GT35/40 on large street ported engines. If you analyze the flow maps it is really not that hard to see.

Dynojets are not as repeatable as you state. Dyno bearing tolerances, wheel slip, "smoothing" correction, etc. can have thier effects, as well as engine variables like intercooler efficiency, engine temps, mileage on oil, ecu fuel/ign inconsistencies, gas quality, can all have thier effects, however minute they might be.

I think both real world and dynoed engine performance should be looked at, and the variables of each should be looked at and considered in the process of overall tuning. I do agree that dynomameters are far more accurate in measuring true engine power though.

Calm down Pete

RICE RACING

Did not intend it to be personal, I know you have a gt35/40 turbo and hence stick up for it.

I will keenly await your dyno sheet or track time's & performance if you choose to do this method instead, did not mean upset you or others just things are pretty black & white for me when I look at things....but I can undrstand your aprehension towards dyno figures, I hope you can understand my views on the variables associated with deriving power from vehicle performance instead of telling me to shove it up my ****

Maxthe7man

I think of a perfect example of what Rice is talking about is the 750-1000 hp Supra dyno queens that show up at tracks and run mid 13's, if the car spins the tires to half track thats power that is not going to show up on any timeslip, and evaluating engine performance and tuning changes on that data would be foolish at best..Max

RICE RACING

My point exactly! Also if you don't run the numbers due to what ever other reason it makes your engine look bad.

Classic example BMW F1 engine in a Williams, got lapped by a Ferrari in the last GP!!! Even though the BMW is regarded as the strongest powerplant in F1 (best acceleration and top end speed).

Renault one of the lowest powered F1 teams (as admited by the team itsself) finished second to the Ferrari.

Moral, you can't use track performaces to justify engine output or drivability simple as that in my books, but again I can see where AJC13B is coming from as well as there are some dishonest dyno operators out there too