dubulup

wow, I'm surprised to see 16psi so late in the rpms...I that's what a little backpressure will do.

atihun

It's a T3 with a 1.06, plus I think the backpressure is realy holding it back.

I think that my porting job, an "aggressive" streetport according to Steve, is shifting the curve to the right a bit.

By 3500 the boost is at 10 psi.

charlies7

iTrader: (4)

oh for some reason i thought you had a T4 with a 1.00 for some reason..

jacobcartmill

iTrader: (6)

torque seems low for 384whp.

i made similar numbers in my TII: 360.0whp / 305.0wtq but that was with a .81 T4 p-trim turbine.

dubulup

atihun

It sure feels a lot more than 290 when you're driving it.

But I can't say it's more since that's whats on the the paper!

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Attila,
Been attempting to (re)contact you. PLEASE answer your PM's!!

Thanks, and congrats on a successful dyno!

P

atihun

Follow-up notes:

The car has been running great, so here's what I've found / noted in the past 2000 miles:

--Fuel:

Steve did a nice job tuning and it runs great at 16 lbs of boost.

However, it still idles like a bridgeport <--read rough / loud.
I found that the idle smooths out very nicely when the ignition is at -5L and -20T (AFR 13-could go a bit leaner), but I don't know if that is okay/acceptable for idle timing. Anyone know?

In the vacuum region / light throttle there are some fuel map areas that need adjustment. Some spots are too lean (16) and some are too rich (11). The car does not like driving in light throttle at an AFR of 16 as it starts to buck slightly; 14 to 15 is okay.

Fuel injectors and FJO Injector driver combination seems to be working well.

--Oiling:

Using Amsoil synthetic and it doesn't burn any oil. No oil in the intake and no blow-by. The OMP diverter works great and pulls Amsoil synthetic two stroke from a reservoir.

--V-mount setup:

Water temps are great with the v-mount and using Evans. Temperatures don't go above 88, on hot days it stays around 75 when moving. I was a bit concerned about the water temps being too low, however the oil temps should be fine after a bit of light driving since it is regulated by a Mocal 180 t-stat.

Air temps are in the 20-30 range when moving.

--Boost control:

The Blitz SBCID-3 doesn't work well using the automatic settings on a single turbo. Manual settings hold boost at exactly what I set it to.

--Exhaust:

Knightsports metallic cat works great; no smelly exhaust. But even with that and a Racing Beat exhaust it is still too loud for me. I bought a SMB Metallic cat that has a straight through muffler that should help.

--Turbo:

At 3000 RPM if I mash the gas, the exhaust gets loud and the boost builds relatively slowly. From 3K to 3.4K the engine seems like it has some wierd harmoics or something because it gets a little loud and slight vibration. AFR's are good, no noticeable knock. Once it passes 3.4K, it comes alive and oh **** hold on!

If I mash the gas at 3.4K or higher, the boost builds very quckly and no noise/vibration. I don't know if this is because of the porting that I did, restriction from the cat, if this could be compressor surge, or possibly I need a stronger wastegate spring?

The next steps are to smooth out the vacuum parts of the map and then install the water injection kit I have sitting in a box. I need to work on the injector acceleration a bit as it seems to go slightly lean on tip-in (AFR's - driving at 14>hit gas>15>14>12>10). Any suggestions on the tip-in?

Any input would be appreciated!

dubulup

great follow up!

EGT will tell you how your idle timing is...great thing about 13B's everyone's behave's differently

datalogging vacuum area's should help you see where to adjust fuel...no biggie there.

very strange about that vibration

I'm not sure how the tip in is set-up on a PFC...haltech lets you adjust a % and a time; How much to add for TPS movement and how long to tapper off to the fuel map. Looks like you need to adjust the % a little higher...

atihun

Thanks!

Idle egt's are around 800 after full warm-up. Normal driving in vacuum at an AFR of 14 is around 1300 degrees. Full throttle runs cools it down quickly!

atihun

New developments:

The stainless heat shield for the turbo is useless. I think it would be good if I had ceramic coated the exhaust side of the turbine housing but I was told not to when I bought it. I should have anyway.

I bought a turbo blanket; it helps quite a bit more with heat under the hood. When I replace the Knightsports Metallit High flow cat with the one from SMB, I will wrap everything from the turbo back.

Now for the interesting stuff:

Two weeks ago when I removed the heat shield I found that the upper rear nut on the turbo manifold to the exhaust manifold was gone. The lower rear nut was loose. The two front ones were tight but because they were wedged by the manifold.

When I got underneath, I saw that there was a 1/16 space between the turbo manifold and the exhaust manifold on the rear side (=exhaust leaking before getting to the turbo). I’m wondering if this is the cause for the following:

i. Slower than normal response of turbo
ii. Extra noise
iii. Lower than expected torque numbers, possibly hp as well

Once I tightened it back on I found that the noticed vibration around 3K to 3.4K has reduced noticeably, but it’s still slightly there.

Boost builds faster from 3 to 3.5K.

Additional findings:

I’m still seeing 14.5-13 AFR range in 2-5 psi of boost on light to medium throttle when warmed up. I don’t know if the AFR’s are being affected by the wastegate as it dumps back into the exhaust before wb02 or I need to richen it up in that section. I do hear the wastegate opening and releasing extra exaust to keep the boost at 2-5 or whatever I was throttling to. Overall, I think that light to medium throttle driving could have been tuned better; so that’s what I’m doing now.

Anyhow, the moral of the story is to check your nuts.

Any input is appreciated!

dhahlen

iTrader: (5)

Use Safety wire....

I had this problem from vibration on a few setups. I use an all V-Band setup now from HKS, so I don't worry anymore.

But, just do safety wire on all 4 bolts, that way they can't vibrate loose. We used to do this on every single bolt on a helicopter due to the constant vibration.... you had to.

It won't take all that much time, if you're not sure how to do it just read up on it, but it really is common sense. Do two bolts at a time, and make sure the safety wire keeps the bolt tight by working against it...

http://www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html

You should be able to find some of those bolts at a hardware store or order online with correct thread pitch, it will do wonders in the future, just kind of a paint every time you need to remove your turbo from the manifold.

bryant

cool i have the same problem with my t-78 setup vibrating the bolts loose.

Asleep

i)yes ii) yes iii) yes

Based on tuning experience with similar turbos and ports, you should have full target boost by 3800rpm, in 3rd gear.

Use shouldered nuts, and then a lock nut on top of it. Also, use similar metals of nuts and bolts. The expansion and contraction cycles of disimlar metals plays a part.

Did you check to make sure the T-4 manifold flange was flat? Mine first one was warped from welding. Came in a kit. The nuts, bolts, fittings, were also all replaced.

If your wastegate spring is 7psi, it is not going to open much before that with a boost controller. At 2-5psi I don't think your wastegate (or where it dumps) is opening to affect AFRs. Rule of thumb AFR for light throttle and low boost is going to be leaner than WOT. Helps spool up. Adding about .03 in those areas should bring it closer to 12.5AFR in those areas.

My wife torques my nuts!

Tony

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

Tony has it right. It's not specifically the vibration that works the nuts loose it's the thermal cycling that does it. I've checked the nuts on my wastegate one evening when all was cold, all nice and tight, run ONE session on the track for 25 minutes the following morning, let the car cool down and found 2 of the 4 nuts only finger tight. What a pain!

I've had the problem mainly on the wastegate bolts.
Safety wiring is the best soln but is a royal PITA.
Shouldered nuts will help. Shouldered nuts with serrated shoulders is even better - negates the need for lock washers. Lock washers typically won't work as the tremendous heat they see will make them relax very quickly and become totally ineffective.

I've used a lock washer "system" made by Nordlock with some degree of success but as mentioned by several of you before safety wiring is the best soln.

As for the heat shield I agree. I ditched my metallic heat shield in favor of a thermal blanket.

FWIW
Crispy

atihun

Are shouldered nuts those that are slightly crimped towards the top and have a slightly larger base? If so that's what I used and then just for the hell of it I put another nut on top of it.

The safety wire looks like the best way, but it's too hard to get into the base area of the turbo that mounts it to the manifold.

Should I be overly concerned about the AFR's around 2-5 psi?

I need to get a friend to help me fine tune those spots on the map. Anyone want to come to So Cal and help me out? It's 83 today, and the beach is about 15 miles away.

Asleep

AFR's 2-5psi: not "overly concerned" but I think 14 leaves open a potential path to higher boost spiking lean before you get control of it again (in a higher boost cell.) Personally, I'd lke to see mid-12's. Some might argue...and I won't disagree with them. But I have seen how the ecu "skips" through the map in 1st and 2nd and would hate for the ecu to hit 14 on it's way to 14 in a "danger cell."

No, the "shouldered" ones have the "built in washer" base. I'll have to find a pic.
Here it is:


You really don't need the hassle of s-wire. After helping a buddy do his plane and his race car I swore I would never submit myself to that hell. Or, advise it

Are you using studs with nuts? Also, what material is the flange on the manifold? Mild or SS steel?

Tuning...can be arranged for a few pictures of the garage. Pm'ed.

Tony

atihun

Hey all!

Just a quick update:

1. Idle:

My idle has been a bit rough (bouncing around, and lumpy). Part of it I thought was due to the large porting I did. Well I've tried everything, at least I thought I did.

So I spent some time tinkering with the idle and using Chucks manual idle settings, I now have a really nice smooth idle!

I set the 8 cells around my idle to the same fuel with 4 IGL and -4 IGT. This helped with electrical load, but without it was still lumpy and AFR was around 12.5.

Then I tried -5 IGL and -20 IGT, which I think is Mazda's stock idle ignition timing. The car can idle smoothly at 720 RPM's and the AFR is around 13.5 (I didn't even adjust the fuel)!

I'll tweak it a bit more, because the vacuum cell it's in is at -10 inHg (P6) on my map, and sometimes it gets close to the the P7 row and fluctuates a little.

With electrical load, it still idles at the same RPM for some reason...

Overall, it's a huge improvement.

2. Using NGK B9EGV's (in trailing) and B10EGV's (in leading):

Since these are non resistor type plugs, I get a noticeable amount of FM interference. Oh well.

3. Low PSI AFR's:

I've added about 5% to the low areas and will be working on those as needed. The rest of the map seems fine.

4. Using a K&N type air filter:

The suction from the turbo causes the oil in the filter to actually drip out of the filter. Anyone ever seen this before?

5. Using the stock oil ventilation method:

I get a little bit of oil pooling in the intake tubing (between the filter and turbo inlet). So it looks like I might install a catch can in the middle of the setup (between the oil filler neck and the vacuum tube to the intake.

willub and company

iTrader: (3)

have you had any problems with the techedge? I got mine about 2 months ago and when i got it the cal button wasn't working. i asked them and they said it was due to something or other with the wiring, just wondering if you had the same problem.

atihun

I got mine about 3 years ago; it was a 2B0 version. I have no problems with it.

Which version did you buy?

Here's a diag I made of how I wired it up to the Datalogit if you're interested:

http://www.atihun.com/pictures/2B0_to_Datalogit.bmp

willub and company

iTrader: (3)

I got the 3A. std. sad thing is, i have tried to email them about getting this fixed and they seem to be ignoring me. BTW, your car is amazing
http://wbo2.com/3a1/default.htm

atihun

Thanks!

Are you using the serial cable to the PC and the calibration program? That is what I use and it works without problems. One thing I noticed though is that if you are using Windows Vista, it is very picky on what gets connected to the serial port.

willub and company

iTrader: (3)

so i can use my computer to calibrate it? I think i am going to try that first thing tomorrow! is the cal program part of the software that is on there website?

willub and company

iTrader: (3)

edit... http://wbo2.com/sw/conf.htm is that what you are talking about?!?!?!?!?

atihun

That's it. Just make sure that you have the O2 sensor in free air, not already installed. Works great.