I'm looking for some assistance with an aftermarket twin turbo kit that I hope to use in one of my FC's. It is a RE-Amemiya setup that uses a pair of GReddy TD05-18G's.
The motor it would be going on is a combo of s4 and s5 turbo, and FE parts. The rotors are lightened (side milled) s4's, housings and irons are moderately street ported s5's and the e-shaft is from an RX-8. The rotating assembly has been balanced. 2mm 2-piece Atkins apex seals and solid corners. Mazda OE bearings, side seals, oil rings, etc. Ported FD throttle body, UIM/s5 LIM.
Now that the keg is taken care of, I'm on to dealing with fuel and EMS. I still am undeceided about what standalone I will use, but seeing as I have a slew of fresh injectors in my possession I figured I'd cross that bridge first. I currently have 550's, 680's, 750's and 800's.
Any ideas on what size injectors would be suitable?

 

What are your goals for the car?

 

It's for show and go. Weekend warrior street use with the occasional open track day event.
It has a ton of customizing done.....both style and performance. I've also focused a lot on suspension upgrades to make it more then just a parking lot sculpture and dyno queen.
As for power goals, I honestly don't have any. I don't know of anyone with a similar setup to base a comparison off of. If I had to make a rough guess, I'd estimate this combo's potential in the 400-425hp range....possibly more. But then again, that's why I'm here asking for knowledge and guidance.

 

After reading Howard Coleman's thread about injector sizing, I did some searching around for a compressor map for these turbos. All I could find is a rudimentary map. I don't know if it gives enough info to draw any conclusions from. Can someone help me interpret it, if at all possible?

Thanks,

 

This is probably the closest you are going to find, it's TD06 so I'm not sure how different it is but I suspect it's similar



using the converter I have mentioned here: https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/very-handy-free-program-unit-conversion-961838/ at basically standard conditions



You can see a realistic peak flow of about .25 m^3/sec which works out to about 40 lb/min .

 

If memory serves correct the 06 in TD06 vs Td05 is the *** end of the turbo so 16g or 18g is the compressor and the 05 and 06 is the turbine. So imagine the TD07 as a T4 TD06 as a T3 and a TD05 as a T2 , Not sure if those are accurate its just a comparison for understanding the Mitsu/Greddy turbine sizing.

18G - CFM 590 - lb/min 39
"Super" 16G - CFM 585 - lb/min 37
"Big" 16G - CFM 525 - lb/min 34
"Standard" 16G - CFM 520 - lb/min 33.5

Taking a page from Subie owners and their quest for power we can see the rough estimate of the 16g vs 18g along with Arghx conversion (he knows his stuff) that those turbos will put you in good power. The 18g's should do about 580hp and a pair of 16g's about 500hp. so you can figure that will make your car a beast. I did the comparison of the 16gs because it shows what your power range will be, and I have a pair of 16gs in my garage now I might have a use for them.

 

Turbine Exducer Inducer
TD05 1.93"/49mm | 2.20"/56mm
T25 1.64"/41.7mm | 2.09"/53mm
TD06 2.17"/55.1mm | 2.56"/65mm
GT2871 1.85"/46.9mm | 2.09"/53.9mm
GT3071 2"/50.8mm | 2.22"/56.5mm

cant take credit here had help from http://www.ztechz.net/id1.html, I just took time to show the closeness of the garret turbos to the Mitsu/Greddy turbos.

Hope this helps with your build

Good Luck

- Chasen

 

I can tell you right now that a full TD06 turbo has a T3 flange, and a TD07 has a T4. The stock Syclone turbo for example is a TD06-17C and a T3 turbine inlet gasket fits perfectly on there.

I have used newer 18G-patterned billet compressor wheels on Subarus and have been happy with them. But that's a very different setup.

 

So the TD05 18g's should have similar spool to rx7store.net's old twin setup, that they never sold... . I love that manifold they made.

 

"TD06 turbo has a T3 flange"

if this is the case just make sure it does not have the .48 A/R. i can tell you from direct experience that the 48 housing is too small for the rotary and will create too much backpressure and will lead to turbo/engine failure.

i designed, built and evaluated a twin turbo system for my FD. i clocked over 15,000 miles on it and was quite happy. i used two TO4E 46 trims. they made 44 pounds per minute tops and did employ T3 backsides w internal (ATP Ultimate Wastegate) wastegating. i started w 48s and melted everything down, switched to 63 and also ran 82s both of which were fine.

here's a comparison between my setup and your turbos....


cold side compressor area (2 turbos)

18G TDO5H.................... 8.75

TO4E..............................10.0

hotside turbine area

18G TDO5H....................6.726

TO4E..... stage 3 wheels...9.04
TO4E......stage 5 wheels.......10.816

"undecided about what standalone"

i recommend you find a unit that can log knock which is essential to tune, especially since you will have a unique setup.

good luck,

howard

 

Wow, thank you guys for all the healpful info!
As arghx speculated, "18G" is the compressor moniker. Regardless of weather it is on a TD04, 05 or 06 exducer, the compressor remains the same. So that comp. graph should be correct for my calculations even though it's on a TD06.

Attached are a few clickable thumbnail pics I took for comparison between an old TD06-19c and the newer TD05-18G. I wouldn't exactly call the TD05 a T2 footprint, but it is certainly smaller then the full T3 of the TD06.
(Side note- The TD06-19c is the original turbo used by GReddy for their FC upgrade kit in the late 80's.)

One other question I have is converting the cm2 rating of these housing to a more comparible A/R rating. The TD05's I have are 8cm2. The TD06 is 16cm2.

 

Revisiting this thread with a few more questions. Hopefully someone can help me find the answers.
After using Howard's formula for injector sizing, I come up with needing approximately 6400cc. Is it more advisable to use four 1600cc injectors or, say, two 1000cc and two 2200cc injectors?

Also, can I use a wastegate in the 47-50mm range, or will I have to move up to a 60mm? The original kit had a 47mm gate, but also used smaller (compressor) TD05-16G turbos.

 

Go 2x 1000cc and 2x 2200cc.

Idling will be a bitch otherwise, and you probably won't need the full 1600 primaries before you're transitioning to the secondaries as well anyway.

 

In my experience, ID1000's or similar are about as big as you can go for primaries on gas, while still keeping a decent idle, although in fairness that was with an old Microtech. Your 6400cc figure seems a little high though, are you planning on pushing over 500 whp and 20 psi? If you keep it at a reasonable ~15 psi (since you don't seem so concerned on peak power figures) you will have a nice powerband, most likely around 400whp, with those turbos in the higher efficiency area of the map. And, you could get away with 550cc primaries/1600cc secondaries.

It's your call at the end of the day, but I would expect these turbos to max out around or under ~550 whp @ 23-25psi, and that is if the turbine housings aren't too restrictive as Howard pointed out. If max power is your intention, then the ID1000/2200 combo is pretty ideal.

 

You're correct Trots. I'm not focused on acheving max power potential. I was just following the equation and the suggestion of running the injectors at 80-85% duty cycle, thus the 6400cc conclusion. I was figuring that 1600's would be too fat for primaries, but was unsure where the threshold for a reasonable idle on gas was.....so 1000's are kinda where it's at, eh? That's convenient, seeing as I received a pair of 1000's and a pair of 1600's with my KG Parts fuel rails.
If I were to run that combo, I'm figuring I could reasonably achieve 425-450whp @ 17-18 psi, and still be running the turbos pretty efficiently while not over working the injectors. Is that correct?

As for wastegate sizing.....any suggestions there?

I'm also still having difficulty converting Greddy's cm2 to a conventional A/R for the turbine housing. Does anyone know of a straight forward formula for this?

Thanks,

 

Remember that it's also going to depend on the 1000's you use. The injectors I was using are the ID1000's (EV14), which give a lot nicer/consistent idle at lower pulse widths than the EV1 style injectors. I know that with some ECU's, even the stock FD secondaries (850's) can be tricky to get a nice idle without playing with lag times. The nice thing is that with 1000 primaries/1600 secondaries, you have room for well over 500 whp on gas (over 600 whp by my calcs..)

As for those turbos @ 17-18 psi, I haven't used Arghx's unit converter, but I don't see an issue with that. Even using 95% VE as your figure @ 8500 RPM, you'd be ingesting ~58 lbs/min of air, or 29 lbs/min of air each turbo, which I don't know how that converts to m^3/sec, but seems would be well within it's effiency zone.

Wastegates: if you're running twin wastegates, 32mm's would be more than enough and are quite common. For a single, a 44mm or anything larger would be plenty.

As for cm^2 to A/R, they don't convert directly, since one is a measurement and one is a ratio, and unfortunately I can't help you with that one.

 

The 1000s I have are Marren. I'm unfamiliar with the terms EV1 and EV14.

My mani is designed for a single wastegate, so I'm sticking with that. I ended up finding a smokin deal on a Turbosmart 50mm Progate last night and picked it up. I can scratch that from my to-do list.

 

EV1 and EV14 are the different generation of Bosch injectors. The EV1's are the old style injectors that came stock in our cars (70's technology). The EV14's are much more efficient and using much newer technology.

 

For the most part, they will both flow about as much on the top end, however the EV14's give you considerably more linearity in the very high and very low pulse widths. Check out injector dynamics' website if you haven't already.

 

Thanks for the schooling. All of my injectors are EV-1's.
I checked out ID's website as suggested. Some really healpfull info there. I guess my next step is to sell off the injectors I have and upgrade.
However, the gap in available sizes (between 1000 and 2000cc) is interesting. Anyone know why they did away with there 1600cc model? Would I be able to dial back the pulse width (correct terminology?) enough on a set of 2000's?
Sorry for all these noob-ish questions, but EFI tuning is a relatively new frontier for me and I certainly have jumped in the deep end with this project. It's time to learn how to swim!