it IS 2015: Gentleman start your turbos
01-08-15, 06:52 PM
#27
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like every other ball bearing turbo, if you wipe out the turbine wheel it means buying a new center section.
speaking from experience, I have a customer with a track prepped time attack evo. He had an EFR7670 for about a year until the motor dropped a valve and shot valve + piston chunks through this EFR7670 damaging the gamma-ti turbine wheel... the result was 3 blades mostly missing, he was very upset to have to repair the engine and the turbo. I sent the photos to BW engineering who said they did not expect any further turbo failure and to "just run it". We did and there was no negative change on the dyno or track times. I expected the turbo would fail, due to imbalance and the cracked blades, but to this day it is going strong for track events. people would not believe it unless they see the wheel for themselves bc it's a seriously competitive time attack car
speaking from experience, I have a customer with a track prepped time attack evo. He had an EFR7670 for about a year until the motor dropped a valve and shot valve + piston chunks through this EFR7670 damaging the gamma-ti turbine wheel... the result was 3 blades mostly missing, he was very upset to have to repair the engine and the turbo. I sent the photos to BW engineering who said they did not expect any further turbo failure and to "just run it". We did and there was no negative change on the dyno or track times. I expected the turbo would fail, due to imbalance and the cracked blades, but to this day it is going strong for track events. people would not believe it unless they see the wheel for themselves bc it's a seriously competitive time attack car
01-08-15, 10:21 PM
#29
like every other ball bearing turbo, if you wipe out the turbine wheel it means buying a new center section.
speaking from experience, I have a customer with a track prepped time attack evo. He had an EFR7670 for about a year until the motor dropped a valve and shot valve + piston chunks through this EFR7670 damaging the gamma-ti turbine wheel... the result was 3 blades mostly missing, he was very upset to have to repair the engine and the turbo. I sent the photos to BW engineering who said they did not expect any further turbo failure and to "just run it". We did and there was no negative change on the dyno or track times. I expected the turbo would fail, due to imbalance and the cracked blades, but to this day it is going strong for track events. people would not believe it unless they see the wheel for themselves bc it's a seriously competitive time attack car
speaking from experience, I have a customer with a track prepped time attack evo. He had an EFR7670 for about a year until the motor dropped a valve and shot valve + piston chunks through this EFR7670 damaging the gamma-ti turbine wheel... the result was 3 blades mostly missing, he was very upset to have to repair the engine and the turbo. I sent the photos to BW engineering who said they did not expect any further turbo failure and to "just run it". We did and there was no negative change on the dyno or track times. I expected the turbo would fail, due to imbalance and the cracked blades, but to this day it is going strong for track events. people would not believe it unless they see the wheel for themselves bc it's a seriously competitive time attack car
01-10-15, 08:51 AM
#32
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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Geoff saved me lots of money about 3 years ago when i broke part of one ceramic apex seal. besides thoroughly trashing all my motor (never again) my turbine wheel was slightly dinged.
i assumed it was trash what w all the high speed balancing stories you hear about the final turbo assembly process. i mentioned my situation to Geoff and he asked me to send him pics. after viewing the pics he said absolutely run the turbo and that there should be no measurable power/spool loss etc. i was surprised.
i subsequently did over 60 pulls on it to 8900 and 3 in fifth gear to 8900. i ran the 2013 Texas Mile with it and was running 164 between the 1/4 and 3/8 marker. i do admit that just 2 or 3 vanes were scuffed at the edges, one was slightly (slightly) cupped but nevertheless i was ready to deep six it so THANKS GEOFF.
here's the damage:
HC
i assumed it was trash what w all the high speed balancing stories you hear about the final turbo assembly process. i mentioned my situation to Geoff and he asked me to send him pics. after viewing the pics he said absolutely run the turbo and that there should be no measurable power/spool loss etc. i was surprised.
i subsequently did over 60 pulls on it to 8900 and 3 in fifth gear to 8900. i ran the 2013 Texas Mile with it and was running 164 between the 1/4 and 3/8 marker. i do admit that just 2 or 3 vanes were scuffed at the edges, one was slightly (slightly) cupped but nevertheless i was ready to deep six it so THANKS GEOFF.
here's the damage:
HC
01-11-15, 11:05 AM
#33
There are a lot of guys out there running damaged turbine wheels with very little to negative side effect. Seen guys run them for years at all different boost levels and brand names and rarely is it much of an issue. Ones with much worse damage than Howard's pic shows.
Not recommending it, just saying it happens regularly with rotaries and a lot of "freshly rebuilt" FDs are sold with the turbo/turbos in this condition.
Not recommending it, just saying it happens regularly with rotaries and a lot of "freshly rebuilt" FDs are sold with the turbo/turbos in this condition.
01-11-15, 02:26 PM
#34
re-amemiya body vert
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Another thing I should mention that boost between gears is something I have never experienced before. It is instant. Its something that would be impossible to show on the dyno.
The other factor that does not show on the dyno is partial throttle low boost/off boost response is amazing with this turbo. Compared to another car i have here that has the GTX4294 the gt is lazy until its on full bang and the 9180 is as light as a feather.
The other factor that does not show on the dyno is partial throttle low boost/off boost response is amazing with this turbo. Compared to another car i have here that has the GTX4294 the gt is lazy until its on full bang and the 9180 is as light as a feather.
01-12-15, 07:38 AM
#37
Wastegate John
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There are a lot of guys out there running damaged turbine wheels with very little to negative side effect. Seen guys run them for years at all different boost levels and brand names and rarely is it much of an issue. Ones with much worse damage than Howard's pic shows.
Not recommending it, just saying it happens regularly with rotaries and a lot of "freshly rebuilt" FDs are sold with the turbo/turbos in this condition.
Not recommending it, just saying it happens regularly with rotaries and a lot of "freshly rebuilt" FDs are sold with the turbo/turbos in this condition.
01-13-15, 10:50 AM
#43
Pistons are for pussy's
Werent you and advocate believer of ALS seals which are unbreakable and said that you have yet to see that they eat housings?
01-13-15, 01:31 PM
#44
Then I started hearing a lot of reports from other builders I know and trust using them saying they were eating housings. I didnt believe it because I had my personal FD and multiple customers engine with well over 10k miles with no issues.
So I built a couple more engines, one for a different personal FD and sure enough they destroyed my near new housings in less than 1k miles. Literally looked like 25 grit sandpaper had chewed the surface. Maybe it was a bad batch, I dont know. My housings and irons were shot, I wasnt willing to take that chance again. I saw pics from other buildiers with the same issues all under 5k miles.
I'm not going to sit here and bash them as I built 35+ engine with them and had zero issues previously. Something changed in the production, coating etc I dont know. I watched them chew up 5-7 engines in literally a 3-5 month period.
Its sad because the original version was excellent, truly a great product. The down side is the other unbreakables(pick the name brand) all get you anywhere from 7-15k miles and then the car wont hot start. If you get past 5-7k miles the housings are usually too far shot to resurface.
Currently I run Atkins, OEM and am starting to run the RA Classics. I may build 5-6 engines a year as it is a hobby now so I dont acquire the data as quickly anymore. There is no perfect fix, want the power you make sacrifices. Going fast is all about money spent in the end.
01-13-15, 02:30 PM
#45
Two years ago when I pulled my FD motor with low compression, the previous owner had put unbreakable seals which really did a number on the rear housing as well as heavy damage to the rear irons and minor damage to the middle iron.
I assumed after then that the unbreakable, "ate the internals" but I never bothered to double check with others. I only use Atkins or OEM now but I guess there is the super risk that if a seal shatters, it hurt the insides pretty badly unless you do a refresh every 70-90k.
Aside from that, I have heard good things from the EFR's even though you cannot rebuild them. I was wondering like how someone posted on the first page that if we are indeed able to run smaller turbo's with larger power gains, what would the potential of the EFR's on a stock ported REW and has overall cooling of the EFR's remained the same? I'm always curious about stock ported engines hence my random question
I assumed after then that the unbreakable, "ate the internals" but I never bothered to double check with others. I only use Atkins or OEM now but I guess there is the super risk that if a seal shatters, it hurt the insides pretty badly unless you do a refresh every 70-90k.
Aside from that, I have heard good things from the EFR's even though you cannot rebuild them. I was wondering like how someone posted on the first page that if we are indeed able to run smaller turbo's with larger power gains, what would the potential of the EFR's on a stock ported REW and has overall cooling of the EFR's remained the same? I'm always curious about stock ported engines hence my random question
01-13-15, 02:41 PM
#46
I have no idea where you dream up your 5-7K mile numbers. If that were the case we would have changed to nothing but stock seals years ago.
We have customers that currently have over 75K miles on RA classic seals, running no premix around 300whp. We have lots of customers that have 30K-40K on super seals, making over 400hp for nearly a decade of street and track use. As we all know the higher HP cars just do not get driven as much. We have several customers that come back every year for additional mods that we have documented, their mileage, HP and compression every visit for over a decade.
Now you can start your multi-quote "head scratch" crap. But first I have one:
Why on earth would you even contemplate using seals that you claim will leave you with a completely useless engine inside of 5-7K miles. This defies all logic.
Now you guys can get back on topic since DJ thought it was the correct thread to start the apex seal debate, yet again. DJ you can PM that apology, if you can't handle posting it up publicly.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; 01-13-15 at 02:45 PM.
01-13-15, 03:15 PM
#47
That is too funny, since I still have not received any apology from you for being a massive douchebag in Tom's thread two years ago about those exact seals.
I have no idea where you dream up your 5-7K mile numbers. If that were the case we would have changed to nothing but stock seals years ago.
We have customers that currently have over 75K miles on RA classic seals, running no premix around 300whp. We have lots of customers that have 30K-40K on super seals, making over 400hp for nearly a decade of street and track use. As we all know the higher HP cars just do not get driven as much. We have several customers that come back every year for additional mods that we have documented, their mileage, HP and compression every visit for over a decade.
I have no idea where you dream up your 5-7K mile numbers. If that were the case we would have changed to nothing but stock seals years ago.
We have customers that currently have over 75K miles on RA classic seals, running no premix around 300whp. We have lots of customers that have 30K-40K on super seals, making over 400hp for nearly a decade of street and track use. As we all know the higher HP cars just do not get driven as much. We have several customers that come back every year for additional mods that we have documented, their mileage, HP and compression every visit for over a decade.
You keep claiming that 30-40k miles on RA Superseals, we all believe you.
Im sure there is a case or two out there that are willing to live with their car smoking like a freight train running more pre-mix than fuel. There is no short supply of builders and forum members who arent willing to lie about the reality of what the super seals do. Sadly, I would trust them more than the others right now if I was shooting for big power. 15k miles is about the reality before hot starts are near impossible, why lie? It gets you through the warranty phase and with FD owners averaging about 3k miles a year they get years of enjoyment. Banzai wins, just be honest.5-7k miles is about the point where housings are not resurfaceble with those seals, Im sure the recommended builder for RA isnt going to go public and say the seals eat housings, what a shock. We will just ignore the hundreds/thousands of examples of real world results showing that is exactly what they do.
Cant handle posting an apology publicly? What kind of childish mess is that? I gave you credit on the trans crossmember where it was due, you guys offer excellent customer service. I have zero problem stating the truth publicly. Why dont you do us a favor and stop lying about the super seals publicly? You can PM me admitting you know the truth if you cant handle saying it publicly.
01-13-15, 04:18 PM
#48
We have an engine with RA Classic seals with over 120 000ks on it and it still starts perfectly.
I have an E&J seals engine we built in 2006 that is still going to this day 70 000+ks (This car makes nearly 400rwhp on 93)
PLEASE NOTE
Most people who buy cars with "Rebuilt engines" and blame the seals from trashing housings, please note that the housings were probably garbage to begin with and just used for the sale of the car.
The ONLY SEALS that I have used that have trashed Plates/ Housings are POWER SEALS. No other seals has ever done that. I am basing this on engines I have built and pulled apart, this way there is no possible foul play or relying on someone else's word.
I have an E&J seals engine we built in 2006 that is still going to this day 70 000+ks (This car makes nearly 400rwhp on 93)
PLEASE NOTE
Most people who buy cars with "Rebuilt engines" and blame the seals from trashing housings, please note that the housings were probably garbage to begin with and just used for the sale of the car.
The ONLY SEALS that I have used that have trashed Plates/ Housings are POWER SEALS. No other seals has ever done that. I am basing this on engines I have built and pulled apart, this way there is no possible foul play or relying on someone else's word.
01-13-15, 04:19 PM
#49
Pistons are for pussy's
Crap, DJ you were one of the reasons i went with ALS. I rebuilt my engine early 2013 and i havent had a problem since, but its a weekend car and its not driven all weeknds, but when i do, it gets driven hard.
01-13-15, 04:39 PM
#50
Like I said, I had zero issues for 3-4 years with the ALS seals. Some started showing up warped and that was the first sign something had changed. Even then, I wasn't seeing any real issues at first with their performance.
I started to receive pm's from other members and builders claiming housing wear, I was skeptical at first as I had years of good results and even torn down a couple that had bearing failures and the housings looked really good. I thought we finally had a seal capable of 20K plus miles without damaging housings and that was nearly indestructable and for awhile we did. But then, I watched multiple tear downs look just like what I had seen from other unbreakable seals. The same grooves worn all the way around the housing. Some were engines I built, some were built by others. All were ones I knew the history on pretty well and the maintenance and driving conditions. I didnt want it to be reality but it is what it is.
Once again, there is no bias. I profit in no way off any seal and still stand behind any engine I built. I have no dog in the fight, simply the results of what I have seen. I've easily torn down 15-20 engines with Super Seals built by multiple builders around the country and even a one I built for one of my personal FDs back around 2008-9, every single one with the same results. The positive thing I will say is they were consistent and if you have the right mind set are likely the best "unbreakable" seal on the market. Maybe ALS/E&J have resolved the issues, I don't know. Its expensive to be the guinea pig and find out.
I started to receive pm's from other members and builders claiming housing wear, I was skeptical at first as I had years of good results and even torn down a couple that had bearing failures and the housings looked really good. I thought we finally had a seal capable of 20K plus miles without damaging housings and that was nearly indestructable and for awhile we did. But then, I watched multiple tear downs look just like what I had seen from other unbreakable seals. The same grooves worn all the way around the housing. Some were engines I built, some were built by others. All were ones I knew the history on pretty well and the maintenance and driving conditions. I didnt want it to be reality but it is what it is.
Once again, there is no bias. I profit in no way off any seal and still stand behind any engine I built. I have no dog in the fight, simply the results of what I have seen. I've easily torn down 15-20 engines with Super Seals built by multiple builders around the country and even a one I built for one of my personal FDs back around 2008-9, every single one with the same results. The positive thing I will say is they were consistent and if you have the right mind set are likely the best "unbreakable" seal on the market. Maybe ALS/E&J have resolved the issues, I don't know. Its expensive to be the guinea pig and find out.