Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

and a Happy New Year to ALL

note: this is a thread about turbos... should you wish to discuss me i suggest you post in the other thread. i am pretty sure this thread will stay on message.



nothing makes our motors run like turbos and 2015 promises to be by miles the most exciting year ever due to the loads of new turbo options.

due to aero advancements (both comp wheel and cover design) we may have to re-think sizing and power levels.

as you know generally we associate 62 mm inducer compressors w around 400/460 ROTARY (diff than piston) hp...

the 2015 add looks like around 50 hp however if you look at the Precision 62 since the wheel has a 6.94 area (52 Trim) i see 600. they say 800 piston. 800/1.3 = 615 rotary.

the mid range turbos, 64 mm inducer, were generally good for 500/550... in 2015 as much as 690.

perhaps re-thinking sizing is in order.

there are some fascinating match-ups:

in the 62 category we have:

Borg Warner

S300 62 FMW... a carry over but sports a billet compressor and really nice turbine wheel. 6.527 cold side area.

S300 SXE 62 new engineering for 2015 both cover and wheel take flow to a new level. improved journal bearings. good value for high tech. avail March 6.54 area.

Borg Warner was nice enough to let me share this comparative turbo map. it contrasts the S366 w the new S366SXE.

at 72% efficiency

20 PSI (2.36 pressure ratios) S366 61 pounds per minute............S366SXE 70 pounds... plus 14.7%!

30 PSI (3 pressure ratios) S366 70 pounds..............S366SXE 77 pounds.... plus 10%

at 60% efficiency

20 PSI S366 73.5 pounds........S366SXE 80.5 pounds (over 600 hp) plus 9.5%

30 psi S366 79 pounds........ S366SXE 85.3 pounds plus 8%

note also the far superior surge line on the left.



EFR 8374 a hair larger compressor w advanced aero but the 40% lighter turbine wheel is the key. should move boost curve left. 6.626 area

Garrett

the GTX3582r is pretty much everywhere plus 10% to the regular GT35. whether it can get to these regions is still open for speculation as the turbo has a small turbine wheel. 6.519

Precision Turbo

new for 2015 is the GEN2 62 turbo. sporting a 52 trim along w dual ceramic BB it should spool now and is rated at 800 piston hp (80 pounds per minute) or 615 rotary. cold wheel area 6.91 52 trim for big spool.


properly supported and tuned the 62 sized turbos should be able to please most of the rotary market.



moving on to what was previously the "mid-sized" 64 category.... (500/550) 7 inch comp wheel area.

Borg Warner

S300 SXE 64 new engineering for 2015 both cover and wheel take flow to a new level. improved journal bearings. good value for high tech. avail March 7.178 area.

Garrett

GTX4088r sports a 65 mm inducer and map showing 83 pounds of air. has a large for Garrett turbine. 7.167 comp.

GTW3884r (the new "W" designation is for "wide" as in compressor map. wide is good) rated 100 hp more than the GTX4088r... no info as yet on Garrett site.

both interesting turbos...

Precision Turbo

new for 2015 is the GEN2 64. rated at 900 piston/700 rotary. dual ceramic BB 7.07


as we get into the 8 inch area there are additional very interesting turbos but you'd better have a different transmission and be able to keep the car on the ground...

BW S300 SXE 66 and 69
BW EFR 9180

Precision GEN2 68

2015 should be an amazing year!



howard

Vicoor

So, because the compressors and turbines are more efficient we should be able to run a smaller compressor to yield the same mass flow at lower shaft speed, and a larger turbine with less back pressure to get to that shaft speed at a lower back pressure. Effectively "winning" on both sides?

tomofnp

Happy new year and thanks for all this info. Great read

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"So, because the compressors and turbines are more efficient we should be able to run a smaller compressor to yield the same mass flow at lower shaft speed, and a larger turbine with less back pressure to get to that shaft speed at a lower back pressure. Effectively "winning" on both sides?"

well stated, of course we will just have to see how it works on the real world.

the Borg Warner S300 SXE looks like the value play as they should price where the S300 FMW line is which is around $1100-1300 well bought.

Borg indicated to me they might have a 64 model for trial in January. i plan on setting up a visit to Precision the week of the 12th.

howard

Rikk

iTrader: (2)

I'm curious if the new SXE line will bring down the price of the EFR line? I'm not sure the price of the EFR is justifiable compared to SXE at nearly half the price? I was curious if BW would bring a 9180 IWG option to the table for this year as well. If I'm reading this correctly the biggest difference is the(option for an) internal wastegate and less mass equaling a slightly quicker spool? With that said I have not heard or read one bad review about any of the EFR turbos, having several options is nice yet it does not make the decision any easier.
Thanks for all your input Howard

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"curious if BW would bring a 9180 IWG"

just a guess but i doubt you could IWG the 9180 as the WG flow requirements would exceed the gate.

i doubt EFR$ will be much effected by the SXE line as they do contain ceramic ball bearings, are water cooled, and have a much lighter turbine wheel...

other competing turbos w these features are similarly priced.

i believe the SXE cold side (comp and cover) is a later design to the EFR and IMO it is modestly better, being wider and slightly more efficient. i think i heard that BW may slide this tech into the EFRs.

BW is touting the titanium/alumide turbine wheel as a future OE product. the motorsports community is the D part of the R&D.

BurntOrangeT2

iTrader: (30)

Howard, Eliott has the IWG 9180. T4 .92 rear.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

I will have a back to back dyno with the EFR IWG 8374 vs the brand new EFR 9180 IWG this spring. I expect to see 35 psi by 4000rpms, and 600+rwhp. Maybe even 650rwhp if we are lucky. I will test with a 3" and 3.5" inch downpipe the lowest boost possible with the medium actuator.

rx72c

iTrader: (8)

Best I have accomplished with a 170 dyno ramp rate is 25psi by 4300rpm.
Please note that it is very agressive as it comes on

This is with a 1.05 split t4 efr 9180

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

that's interesting re the 9180, 25 psi at 4300.

i reach 25 at 4650 w my GT4094r. the 4094r is a touch bigger (8.17 sq inches) versus the 9180 at 7.97 but the 9180 is a significant amount ahead of the 4094 as to flow and efficiency.

of course the 9180 has the really trick turbine wheel which is both larger (7.19 V 6.42) and about 40% lighter than the 4094. while low end spool/power is much more challenging to hook in first gear it continues to pay big dividends at higher rpms as the same lighter rotating spools better at all rpms.



since there are but 70 days to the next Texas Mile i have decided to go directly to my 9180 and set my 4094r aside. it will be interesting to see what it does. i will be logging turbo RPM, exhaust backpressure, turbo outflow air temp w a thermocouple along w EGTs etc.

HC

rx72c

iTrader: (8)

Another thing I should mention that boost between gears is something I have never experienced before. It is instant. Its something that would be impossible to show on the dyno.
The other factor that does not show on the dyno is partial throttle low boost/off boost response is amazing with this turbo. Compared to another car i have here that has the GTX4294 the gt is lazy until its on full bang and the 9180 is as light as a feather.

Rikk

iTrader: (2)

Great info here guys! Do you have any videos of this (9180 IWG)bad boy in action yet?

rx72c

iTrader: (8)

The one that I am referring to is EWG.
Videos soon

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

I have been saying it for a while, the EFR turbochargers are the best that money can buy HANDS DOWN.

I expect to see 30 psi by 4k rpms with the IWG 9180 on our shorty manifold.

rx72c

iTrader: (8)

Ill have the 9180 on the dyno again on saturday once the water/meth is working and ill lock down the gates abit more and go from there. I reckon i could possibly do 30psi by 4k.

Full-Race Geoff

Howard, always great to see your posts. somewhat pertinent to your conversations - I saw a short video explaining "inertia" for a round wheel, E-Thirteen Finally Answers the Age-Old Question: - Pinkbike i am excited for you to get the 9180 dialed on your setup, then to try a precision

very aggressive as it comes on is an understatement

the 9180 can be a violent explosion of power. I think most people can not understand what the difference is from an 800hp EFR vs an 800hp garrett/precision until experiencing first hand



if anything the EFR prices are likely to go up, titanium wheels and stainless housings are not cheap to manufacture. I believe EFR is the best value in the ball bearing turbo world. The SXE line delivers unmatched value in the turbo marketplace for journal bearing turbos.

yes 9180 IWG is an option right now, i run one on my RB26 and one of the guys here on his built evo. The price is a bit higher than any of the other EFR's and i dont know why it costs so much more than 8374 iwg but its a badass turbo to be certain.

Howard, the internal gate is actually quite large and works great on the 9180 IWG! I ran this on my personal RB26 for a while, testing it with full datalogging


agreed on both points. Sorry i did not get to show you any of the cool demos at PRI

jetlude

iTrader: (9)

Not sure if it been mentioned before but are the EFR,s rebuildable? Are there, or will there be spare parts such as turbine wheels and bearing assemblys for them to be rebuilt DIY. Or will there be a trade in program like Garrett? I would hate to loose a apex seal plus a $2xxx.00 turbo altogether.

jetlude

iTrader: (9)

Oh yea, and Cheers to you Howard for all the valuable information you have shared with us over the years.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Efr turbochargers are not rebuildable. I have yet to see one fail.

silverTRD

iTrader: (36)

What makes a turbo rebuildable/not rebuildable?

Full-Race Geoff

correct, EFR is not rebuildable. However in 3 seasons of Indycar racing there has been zero failures. they are proving to be some of the most reliable turbos - as long as they are used properly (just like anything else). One thing i have not seen yet is any 13B builds using a twin B1-frame EFR... that could be really interesting

every turbo and manufacturer is different. in the case of most ball bearing turbos there is a precision press-fit tolerance plus a high speed core balance required. On the other hand a journal bearing turbo uses a slip fit with component balance so you can easily service it

RENESISFD

iTrader: (13)

^ The main concern us rotary owners are worried about is when a apex seal goes through the turbine. There is no servicing the turbo after that? It is garbage?

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Correct. One must buy a new supercore then...

RENESISFD

iTrader: (13)

^ And what is the price on that, like percentage less that buying complete turbo? Seems like a major drawback for rotaries to use those turbos.

RENESISFD

iTrader: (13)

The company designing their product is what dictates if something is rebuildable.