SmogSUX

iTrader: (12)

Wondering if anyone else has these issues and what to do about them:

So I have a Holset HX40 turbo, so it's only oil cooled/lubed. No water. I'm running no restrictor pill.

My -AN fitting leaked where the braided steel hose met the fitting, so I assumed it was me who installed it wrong. Got another fitting, same thing. So I figured it was the shitty Jegs fittings. Went and got a quality piece and had the guy at the shop install it....guess what still leaks.

It seems that the line doesn't leak until I turn the car off. After driving I usually baby the car a mile or two to let everything cool off and when I get home I idle the car a few minutes just to make sure. Then after about a few minutes I notice smoke coming from the turbo to see that the line is leaking oil onto the turbo which is burning the oil. It looks like the oil is actually bubbling out of the fitting..I'm guessing the oil sits in the turbo once the car is off and ends up boiling out? How the hell can I fix this?

This brings me to my next question, which could also be the cause of the first problem. I just had my car tuned and the tuner said everything was fine, except the boost controller wasn't working right, bah blah blah don't care about that since he said he tuned it @ 12psi. That was fine with me. I can fix the ebc later.

Anyways I wasn't there for the tuning due to school, but my buddy was, who said the car pulled hard and smooth and everything seemed cool. Tuner said it was good to go as well. NOW I went to drive it today for the first time. I hooked the battery back up, since my car likes to drain the battery if I let it sit a week (which I did, due to school). Went ahead and started the car and held the idle at around 2k until the motor was at 170F so it would idle on its own. I get out of the car to see that the Stainless manifold was glowing a nice orange color and the hotside of the turbo was a faint orange too..usually I figured they don't get that hot until you beat on them a little.

No worries, I went ahead and figured I'd take the car for a spin anyways, but be very careful. So I drive off staying out of boost. Seems ok so far. I give it a tiny bit of throttle to build around 2psi of boost. Seems semi ok...I could kind of hear the exhaust note breaking up like the motor was missing REALLY bad or the ignition was breaking up or it was running super lean? Not sure how to describe it. I decide to give it a tiny bit more gas and build boost to about 4-5psi and the breakup sound/feeling was even worse. I pull over and pop my hood to see that my manifold and hotside were BRIGHT orange and the downpipe was also a nice orange color from the turbo about 2' back. I figured that that was WAY too hot and baby the car home staying under 3k rpms and out of boost.

Pull into my garage, downpipe looked like it was cooling off a little since it was a faint orange now, but the manifold and hotside were still a bright glowing color. I idle the car 2 minutes, shut it off and after 10 minutes the smoke from the oil bubbling out of the AN fitting.

This isn't normal is it? I didn't want to risk boosting the car when the exhaust was THAT hot. Or would it be okay to? My water temps as well as oil temps stayed around 180F. It was 57F outside...Should I be fine to boost it? The tuner tuned it to 12 psi and said everything was fine, but when my exhaust looked like that just from super light driving when I was babying the car I felt something was wrong.


Picture of fitting where you can kind of see the oil bubbling out:


Please give me opinions/insight.

My setup:
Microtech Lt8s
Holset HX40
Jacobs FC1000 ignition
running 9s for plugs all the way around (still need to install my 10s)
Devils own Meth injection
720/1000 injectors
cosmo pump wired for full voltage
Stainless manifold and exhaust, no cats

asianguy02

iTrader: (4)

I haven't gone single yet, but ive been lurking, so Ill see if I can offer some insight.

what does your wideband/EGT say? If your running really lean I suppose it would be possible to heat everything up that hot although that would be pretty close to grenading the motor.

Also have you checked for any obstruction in the exhaust? I've heard of similar things happening when something builds a nest in the exhaust and blocks it off, and if your running it straight through thats not something that would be unreasonable.

Those are my ideas, but like I said, I'm kinda a noob when it comes to singles

moremazda

iTrader: (4)

Does it hold an idle? Does it start right up? Also check the timing, make sure the CAS hasn't moved, then make sure the timing lock is off.

slpin

iTrader: (9)

what is your timing at?
got a wideband?

SmogSUX

iTrader: (12)

No wideband, tuner tuned it when I was out of town. Nothing is obstructing the exhaust I believe. It's still loud as hell like always lol. It idles once it's warm. Tends to be something that is a pain to deal with when using Microtech. I had a feeling it's the timing...we'll see though. Going to talk to my tuner.

And no EGT gauge...but after this it would look like a good idea to get one.

And it didn't start right up due to my battery being dead. With my underdrive pulleys the FD alternator only supplies I think like 12.5V...gotta ask the tuner-he checked. Either way yeah...battery was dead so I was using a rechargeable battery jumper pack to charge the battery while I put the oil line on and some of the interior back together. When I go home this weekend I'll check the CAS and Timing lock.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

That's a big oil feed line. 6AN?

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

THe way you describe it running sounds like the timing is locked.

Ever had any issues with your micro tech resetting after losing power? Seen a few LT8's **** the bed constantly back in the day when you'd pull the battery.

On your oil fitting issue - the flare is probably cooked on the adaptor in the turbo. Pull it off and inspect both angled mating surfaces on the adaptor, and hose fitting.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Check timing as mentioned, sounds very retarded.

SmogSUX

iTrader: (12)

Going to check the timing. Tuner said he didn't change the timing from back when I had Steve tune it. He also said that the issue is around where the injector staging and that he would richen the mixture around there as well as check the timing.

He also gave me the go ahead to drive the car harder above the 4psi, around 4k that I was putting around since he didn't have as much time as he wanted with the car and tuned the higher rpms/boost level in more detail.

So hes going to fix all that, but what about the oil line? I know the flare was installed properly, but what can I do to prevent the turbo from cooking it and boiling the oil out when I turn off the car? I'm sure the rubber under the steel braids probably turns to mush once I turn the car off and there's no fresh oil to cool it off. Maybe look into other materials that handle heat better?

And yes, it's a large line, but Holsets love oil

Also, I doubt the microtech reset, since out of boost the car ran smooth as hell...and felt SUPER responsive when getting into boost.

I'm going to try getting the rpms above 4k, then having a little fun with it until the tuner has time to check the midrange out. He said I should be fine above the injector staging point for now.

fc3s690

I have a HX30 on my miata and I had the same problem with the line. I did a little research and turned out I was suppling to much oil pressure to my turbo. I found a manual somewhere online listing the running oil pressure spec for all holsets, i'll try to find it and post it up here.

As for my oil problem the, my hx30 oil pressure spec was 30-50psi. Turned out I was getting 75psi to my turbo with a -6an line. I stepped down to a -3an line and it fixed my oil problem.

I'm running a -8 drain line at a 45 degree bend. If you return line is to small or as to much angle it may not be draining fast enough for how much oil pressure your turbo is getting (I assume 75-90psi right).

also if you used rtv to seal the return line, some of it may be blocking the return line flow.

kind of off subject, but what kind of power are you putting down with that hx40? I'm building a turbo II engine for another miata I have and I really havent decided if i want to use my hx35w or get a 19cm hx40.

fc3s690

FOUND IT

Straight from the holset hx repair manual .pdf:
8. Normal oil temperature is 95+/-5°C (203+/-9° F). It should not exceed 120°C (248°F) under any operating condition.
9. Any pre-lube oil must be clean and meet the minimum CD classification.
10. The orientation of turbine housing, bearing housing and compressor cover is fixed according to application. During installation, do not attempt to rotate these components. Inclined turbocharger installation is not recommended. If an installed angle is necessary, oil inlet centreline must be +/- 10 degrees from vertical and rotor centreline +/- 5 degrees from horizontal.
11. Holset permits oil return pipes to decline at an overall angle of not less than 30 degrees below horizontal.All turbocharger applications require a pipe of internal diameter greater than 19 mm which has integrated connectors. To ensure oil returns into the engine under all operating conditions, the return connection into the engine sump must not be submerged and the outlet flange of the turbocharger must be 50 mm above the maximum oil level of the engine sump pan. Crankcase pressure should be limited ideally to 0.8 kPa (0.12 lbf/in2) but 1.4 kPa (0.20 lbf/in2) can be accepted by reference to Holset.
12. Oil pressure of 150 kPa (20 lbf/in2) must show at the oil inlet within 3 - 4 seconds of engine firing to prevent damage to turbocharger bearing system. A flexible supply pipe is recommended.
13. The minimum oil pressure when the engine is on load must be 210 kPa (30 lbf/in2). Maximum permissible operating pressure is 500 kPa (72 lbf/in2) although 600 kPa (88 lbf/in2) is permitted during cold start up. Under idling conditions pressure should not fall below 70 kPa (10 lbf/in2).
14. Recommended oil flows for the turbochargers are 2 litre/min at idle and 3 litre/min above maximum torque speed.

A 19mm return line = 3/4 inch = -12an

zaridar

iTrader: (3)

i would say your leak is caused by too much pressure as previously mentioned.... i dont know about holsets but most turbos need a restrictor to reduce the amount of oil going into the turbo... i have a ball bearing so it is much less also it is water cooled so probably needs even less. however the actual size of the inlet with the restrictor is probably 2mm like the size of a ball point pen point.... also if the return line is below the oil level you will have issues because it cannot leave the turbo fast enough an will back up in the line....

if your turbo is getting that hot it may just be melting the hose... i do not think it should be getting that hot!!! i would have to disagree with your tuner and say not to go beat on it more if it is getting that hot at low/no boost something is not right... is your tuner someone that tunes rotarys often or has ever? rotaries need alot more fuel (way lower afr number) than reg engines but im sure you know that... i would say that a wideband is key and afr wouldnt hurt... make sure your tuner knows what hes doing and that you are tuned to a rich enough mixture... that and like others have said timing.... good luck let us know what the problems are/were

SmogSUX

iTrader: (12)

Tuner knows what he's doing.

And my drain line is HUGE, so it's fine. Also why would it be too much pressure when it's fine as long as the car is running, but will goto hell when I turn the car off? Isn't that when there should be little/no oil pressure?

kensin

iTrader: (22)

my friend had a problem like that,
turbo hot side glows freaking bright.
found out was a clog oil line off the turbo..

but destroyd the turbo.

zaridar

iTrader: (3)

is it possible that its just burning off when running and only is noticed when you shut if off? restrictions in the exhaust, timing off, or lean conditions are the only things that i can think of that would make it that hot....

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

One question:

If the tuner knows what he's doing, why did you have to rev the car to 2 grand until it reached full operating temp to idle?

I'd personally be a little weary.......

SmogSUX

iTrader: (12)

He knows what he's doing but microtech are bitches to idle when cold. I didn't have to hold it at 2 grand. Could have held it lower but whatever lol. I'll check the drain line for clogs. I know the exhaust isn't blocked at all. Looking to buy a laptop adapter so I can post maps and timing curves.

And I'm pretty sure the oil feed isn't leaking when the car is on. Even when I idled the car to cool it down it didn't leak (most likely due to fresh oil cooling it). Once I turned the car off and waited 10min it started boiling out. Idk what to do about this. I idled the car down and the turbo had a faint glow so it was cooling off considerably. I just don't know WTF to do about the oil boiling out.

SmogSUX

iTrader: (12)

And the car was street tuned at night. So it couldn't be fine tuned. No dynos around my area.

SmogSUX

iTrader: (12)

Anyone have any idea on what other material I can use for a feed line that won't melt and let oil boil out when I turn the car off and the turbo won't have fresh oil cooling it? Hydrolic line??

12AllWays

iTrader: (20)

Yeah I would go with steel hydro line. Bend it how you need. I will hold way more pressure that you are seeing...

zaridar

iTrader: (3)

it shouldn't be that hot i don't think the hose material is your issue... i think if you get it running cooler it will solve the rest of your problems

SmogSUX

iTrader: (12)

Okay, so I decided to drive it again since my tuner said it's okay. Car pulls to redline! Haha and the exhaust wasn't AS hot with me driving above the injector staging area, but still got pretty hot. And the exhaust note was never breaking up...I just remembered my wastegate likes to open SUPER early so it was the wastegate opening a tiny bit that was the noise I thought was my exhaust breaking up.

So my tuner is going to go over the timing maps and clean up the tune around the injector staging area next time he comes up to NorCal.

I'm going to look into the hydrolic line option...anyone else use one?

My new problem I have though is what my tuner was describing to me. I do have boost creep issues. Running off just the wastegate the boost held 9psi on the dot with no issues. With the boost controller hooked up it hits 11psi then creeps from there.

I can feel the car losing power in the top end due to the creep...I had a similar experience with my old BNR. Car pulled great, then I could feel the power dropping off little by little as the boost creeped up.

It's a Greddy Profec Type-S ebc...anyone deal with these?

Here's a video of my boost pattern starting in 2nd gear. You can see the boost build up to 11psi FAST, then start to creep...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFKvOlNRm94

xxtremes33

iTrader: (16)

you need to start by putting in a restrictor or run -3 an line. running a large line like that ur probably putting 70psi at the turbo when it really only wants to see 30-50psi. diesel engines dont run high oil pressures like our cars run. i run a -4 an line with a.065 oil restrictor on my hx40 with a full 19mm inner diameter drain line. my exhaust does not get nearly that hot to glow orange like that unless i just did a really hard run.

xxtremes33

iTrader: (16)

oh by the way, my friend blew his hx52 running too much oil pressure

zaridar

iTrader: (3)

agreed too much oil pressure... still cant figure out why its getting that "glowing red" hot tho