1st Gen Turbo Advice Requested
04-28-05, 12:31 PM
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1st Gen Turbo Advice Requested
I've been driving RX-7's since 1981 and FINALLY NOW I will have boost!!
But I need to develop a "system" and I'd like opinions and suggestions from people who know much more about this than me.
I (with the help of very experienced friends) built a very nice Streetported GSL-SE 6-port engine. (Yeah - I know it's a strange engine to start with)
The only parts I re-used were the iron housings and the oil pan.
Everything else was Mazdacomp New.
The engine was "run in" on the bench. Started right up and has the best compression numbers one could hope for.
So the engine is ready for boost, and I used the "stock" rotors that have 9.4:1 compression.
I'm fuel injected using a Haltech E6X.
I have a MSD6A and coil for each plug running direct fire.
TWM TB's and pressure regulator (with an input for use with boost)
Racing Beat/Dellorto Intake Manifold Top, GSL-SE Intake Manifold Bottom.
Daily Driver and Autocross.
Turbo .vs. supercharger.......
I think the Turbo wins as the "better" boost solution.
Please tell me if I am wrong.
No matter what I do - I'll need an intercooler.
I have a Mariah wide body kit - so I have room for an intercooler.
I imagine I can run in the 10 to 12 pound boost range.
Would that be "safe"??
Some of the suggestions I need are:
I'll need a new exhaust system.
Turbo
Exhaust manifold
wastegate
BOV
Intercooler
Plumbing
Separate oiling system?
Anything else??
Another option I was considering was "Electric Supercharging".
I'll probably get flamed for saying that, but I went through the numbers and it seems there are advantages and disadvantages to this approach.
I strongly believe there would be significantly more power for a given amount of boost.
It would be a much simpler system, being totally "bolt on".
I would imagine cost would be the same or lower.
The "thomas Knight" system seems to be the only legitimate "electric Boost" out there.
But there is no controller yet available.
However he makes a blower/motor assembly available that could provide 12 pounds of boost to a ported 13B engine at 8000 RPM.
Luckily - I can design a controller since I've been a Electrical Engineer in the Military/Aerospace world for 25 years.
Controlling a 36V, 2000A Electric Supercharger is easier than controlling a Missile Fin, and the power levels are similar.
Wastegate and BOV functions would be performed by the controller as well as boost .vs. RPM curves
But - That might be a stupid approach.
I need opinions!!
How much will a good Turbo system cost using new components??
(Including Exhaust system, any special oiling etc)
The "Electric approach" would cost about $3200 + Intercooler.
Steve
But I need to develop a "system" and I'd like opinions and suggestions from people who know much more about this than me.
I (with the help of very experienced friends) built a very nice Streetported GSL-SE 6-port engine. (Yeah - I know it's a strange engine to start with)
The only parts I re-used were the iron housings and the oil pan.
Everything else was Mazdacomp New.
The engine was "run in" on the bench. Started right up and has the best compression numbers one could hope for.
So the engine is ready for boost, and I used the "stock" rotors that have 9.4:1 compression.
I'm fuel injected using a Haltech E6X.
I have a MSD6A and coil for each plug running direct fire.
TWM TB's and pressure regulator (with an input for use with boost)
Racing Beat/Dellorto Intake Manifold Top, GSL-SE Intake Manifold Bottom.
Daily Driver and Autocross.
Turbo .vs. supercharger.......
I think the Turbo wins as the "better" boost solution.
Please tell me if I am wrong.
No matter what I do - I'll need an intercooler.
I have a Mariah wide body kit - so I have room for an intercooler.
I imagine I can run in the 10 to 12 pound boost range.
Would that be "safe"??
Some of the suggestions I need are:
I'll need a new exhaust system.
Turbo
Exhaust manifold
wastegate
BOV
Intercooler
Plumbing
Separate oiling system?
Anything else??
Another option I was considering was "Electric Supercharging".
I'll probably get flamed for saying that, but I went through the numbers and it seems there are advantages and disadvantages to this approach.
I strongly believe there would be significantly more power for a given amount of boost.
It would be a much simpler system, being totally "bolt on".
I would imagine cost would be the same or lower.
The "thomas Knight" system seems to be the only legitimate "electric Boost" out there.
But there is no controller yet available.
However he makes a blower/motor assembly available that could provide 12 pounds of boost to a ported 13B engine at 8000 RPM.
Luckily - I can design a controller since I've been a Electrical Engineer in the Military/Aerospace world for 25 years.
Controlling a 36V, 2000A Electric Supercharger is easier than controlling a Missile Fin, and the power levels are similar.
Wastegate and BOV functions would be performed by the controller as well as boost .vs. RPM curves
But - That might be a stupid approach.
I need opinions!!
How much will a good Turbo system cost using new components??
(Including Exhaust system, any special oiling etc)
The "Electric approach" would cost about $3200 + Intercooler.
Steve
04-28-05, 12:46 PM
#2
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Where would you get 2000a and 36v from on a car?
I have a turbo 1st gen and have been driving it 3 years now. I have a few pic's up at this site if you'd like to take a look. http://www.datsunracing.com/z/setzep
If you have any questions PM me.
I have a turbo 1st gen and have been driving it 3 years now. I have a few pic's up at this site if you'd like to take a look. http://www.datsunracing.com/z/setzep
If you have any questions PM me.
Last edited by setzep; 04-28-05 at 12:51 PM.
04-28-05, 02:00 PM
#4
1st, forget Thomas Knight and his gay supercharger. With batteries it will weigh more then a single turbo system. It WON"T make more power vers a turbo for a given amount of boost for two reasons. A: and the most important is compressor effiency. Not only are screw charges not very effient, but the ones in particular that the electronic super charger uses will be nearly or out of decient effiency range at 10-12 psi on a ported 13b. On a medium sized 4 banger ok, not on a rotary. The rotary engine (ESPECIALLY PORTED) has some deep lungs. and B: though at first clance arent paristic drag because your not drawing from your crank directly, your altinator WILL be causing some major drag on your system as it tries to keep up with the massive current draw (Yes I know the batteries acts as a electronic surge tank).
So, in my humble opinion turbo is the way to go.
Your running, or wil be running a system very very simular to what my buddy is running. His ID on this and other forums is dcee. Heres his web page on car domain
http://www.cardomain.com/id/turbodcee He had another site, but it seems to be down. Contact him with any questions and tell him I sent ya.
~Mike............
So, in my humble opinion turbo is the way to go.
Your running, or wil be running a system very very simular to what my buddy is running. His ID on this and other forums is dcee. Heres his web page on car domain
http://www.cardomain.com/id/turbodcee He had another site, but it seems to be down. Contact him with any questions and tell him I sent ya.
~Mike............
04-28-05, 02:48 PM
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both are good options. depends what you are looking for. with a nice revving street port a turbo will probably be better so you can take advantage of the entire rev band. i would think that the super charger might run out of legs up top. on stock ports a super charger would probably work well.
the guys at J&R have done both. i was there once and got to see the 2 1st gens side-by-side. they used the manifold and turbo from a FC TurboII with a pull through car and a Supra intercooler - not a high dollar/high bling setup but it appeared to be working very well. the supercharged one looked good too.
the guys at J&R have done both. i was there once and got to see the 2 1st gens side-by-side. they used the manifold and turbo from a FC TurboII with a pull through car and a Supra intercooler - not a high dollar/high bling setup but it appeared to be working very well. the supercharged one looked good too.
04-28-05, 03:01 PM
#6
I hope you meant a blow through carb after the the supra intercooler, because using a pull through, then compressor it through the turbo, and shooting it through a intercooler will do nothing but let the full drop out of the air and pool up inside the intercooler (also if he isnt running a carbon seal on the turbo, it wont last very long at all). So it would have to be tuned extremely rich, and run like ****, and have extrem use of fuel, and not to mention require you drain your IC of fuel once in a while..LOL.. ohh, then theres the whole explosive intake system to worry about as well.
~Mike..........
~Mike..........
04-28-05, 03:05 PM
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Im in Chandler Arizona - Pretty much Phoenix.
36V @ 2000 Amps comes from some Military Dry Cells that are separate from the car's electrical system.
There would be no parasytic losses with the electric setup.
Charging is done while you cruise - about 15 minutes to charge these batteries with a 200A Alternator.
13.5 pounds each battery or about 40 pounds total battery weight - not bad..
I'm not defending the Electric approach, but it does make sense to me.
It takes about 30HP to give you that amount of boost and volume.
He bases the Ported 13B of requiring about 600CFM at boost which is what his requirements are on his personal car.
That is about the right number if I figured it correctly.
I've really been going through the numbers on this for the last few months - and he has a good "Partial Product".
There was also a lot of CR@P on the market that people "said" was from him, but it was not.
Assuming it takes about 30HP to give you that amount of boost........
The DC motors he uses are 65% efficient.
A Turbine is - at best - 15% efficient. (Turbine efficiency - not compressor efficiency)
The Turbo - with it's very low efficiency takes A LOT of power from the engine.
It's not free.
A LOT of engine output goes to spinning the turbo instead of going to shaft power.
No one cares about this because the turbo makes so much additional HP that it's not a problem.
But - if you have the same boost from a non-parasytic system - the power required to spin the turbo goes to the wheels.
But - the turbo is a "muffler" so the exhaust can be more free flowing.
On the other hand, the turbo cools the exhaust and slows it down, thus increasing back pressure.
And you need a new exhaust to do a turbo.
And his compressor is not a screw type, it is a centrifugal blower that is basically a motor driven turbocharger
BTW
No one suggested any "Turbo" setup's to me yet.
Components and cost
Steve C
36V @ 2000 Amps comes from some Military Dry Cells that are separate from the car's electrical system.
There would be no parasytic losses with the electric setup.
Charging is done while you cruise - about 15 minutes to charge these batteries with a 200A Alternator.
13.5 pounds each battery or about 40 pounds total battery weight - not bad..
I'm not defending the Electric approach, but it does make sense to me.
It takes about 30HP to give you that amount of boost and volume.
He bases the Ported 13B of requiring about 600CFM at boost which is what his requirements are on his personal car.
That is about the right number if I figured it correctly.
I've really been going through the numbers on this for the last few months - and he has a good "Partial Product".
There was also a lot of CR@P on the market that people "said" was from him, but it was not.
Assuming it takes about 30HP to give you that amount of boost........
The DC motors he uses are 65% efficient.
A Turbine is - at best - 15% efficient. (Turbine efficiency - not compressor efficiency)
The Turbo - with it's very low efficiency takes A LOT of power from the engine.
It's not free.
A LOT of engine output goes to spinning the turbo instead of going to shaft power.
No one cares about this because the turbo makes so much additional HP that it's not a problem.
But - if you have the same boost from a non-parasytic system - the power required to spin the turbo goes to the wheels.
But - the turbo is a "muffler" so the exhaust can be more free flowing.
On the other hand, the turbo cools the exhaust and slows it down, thus increasing back pressure.
And you need a new exhaust to do a turbo.
And his compressor is not a screw type, it is a centrifugal blower that is basically a motor driven turbocharger
BTW
No one suggested any "Turbo" setup's to me yet.
Components and cost
Steve C
Trending Topics
04-29-05, 01:33 PM
#8
Savanna Rx-7
Cheap= stock TII exhasut mani and turbo
and
use the lower half of your intake manifold, and a racing peat adapter to put a carb, and go carb turbo, get a small~ medium sized FMIC and rock it hard
expensive
T04E .84 P trim exhaust wheel, your choice of compressor depending on what you want HP wise.
use the LIM off your current intake manifold, get a TII UIM and have a machinist cut and weld the flange from the TII LIM in place of the 6 port LIM,
get get a small~ medium sized FMIC upgrade your fuel pump with a any decent brand name intank, and get your computer retuned to match (I am not familiar with the haltechs as they don't sell them here)
you will need the TII tranny if you want it to live very long, other than that its jsut simple fabrication.
kenn
and
use the lower half of your intake manifold, and a racing peat adapter to put a carb, and go carb turbo, get a small~ medium sized FMIC and rock it hard
expensive
T04E .84 P trim exhaust wheel, your choice of compressor depending on what you want HP wise.
use the LIM off your current intake manifold, get a TII UIM and have a machinist cut and weld the flange from the TII LIM in place of the 6 port LIM,
get get a small~ medium sized FMIC upgrade your fuel pump with a any decent brand name intank, and get your computer retuned to match (I am not familiar with the haltechs as they don't sell them here)
you will need the TII tranny if you want it to live very long, other than that its jsut simple fabrication.
kenn
04-29-05, 03:29 PM
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It seems I will go the "Turbo Approach".
But - I still think the Electric Approach will give significantly more power "Per pound of boost" than a turbo will.
But - the energy storage is too limited (within weight constraints) for "Extended Spirited Driving".
That is the only reason (but an important reason) I will go the Turbo route.
Now I have A lot of research to do.
I can get a HKS exhaust manifold still, and several people suggested a TO4E as my "Best Performance Choice" - which is the way I want to go.
When I was looking at Garrett turbo's on the web - they had several choices for "Trim" and "A/R" - and I don't know yet what they mean.....
In either case - this will be fun!!
Steve C
But - I still think the Electric Approach will give significantly more power "Per pound of boost" than a turbo will.
But - the energy storage is too limited (within weight constraints) for "Extended Spirited Driving".
That is the only reason (but an important reason) I will go the Turbo route.
Now I have A lot of research to do.
I can get a HKS exhaust manifold still, and several people suggested a TO4E as my "Best Performance Choice" - which is the way I want to go.
When I was looking at Garrett turbo's on the web - they had several choices for "Trim" and "A/R" - and I don't know yet what they mean.....
In either case - this will be fun!!
Steve C
04-29-05, 04:13 PM
#10
NorCal 7's Co-founder
Steve,
When/if the time comes that you want a Haltech, just PM me. I can get you the best price around for an E6X with harness shipped to you. Happy hunting!
Zach
When/if the time comes that you want a Haltech, just PM me. I can get you the best price around for an E6X with harness shipped to you. Happy hunting!
Zach
04-30-05, 06:41 AM
#11
Savanna Rx-7
Originally Posted by haltechrx7
It seems I will go the "Turbo Approach".
clipped
Now I have A lot of research to do.
I can get a HKS exhaust manifold still, and several people suggested a TO4E as my "Best Performance Choice" - which is the way I want to go.
When I was looking at Garrett turbo's on the web - they had several choices for "Trim" and "A/R" - and I don't know yet what they mean.....
In either case - this will be fun!!
Steve C
clipped
Now I have A lot of research to do.
I can get a HKS exhaust manifold still, and several people suggested a TO4E as my "Best Performance Choice" - which is the way I want to go.
When I was looking at Garrett turbo's on the web - they had several choices for "Trim" and "A/R" - and I don't know yet what they mean.....
In either case - this will be fun!!
Steve C
its balancing act, compressor wheel-housing v/s exhaust wheel-ex housing you gotta say what your expectations are how much HP, whats your expected boost level, how much lag are you willing to tolerate etc.
do a search for reading compressor maps, it will take a while but if you read them you will get a reasonable understanding of the flow of the compressor (total hp) then you need to balance it against spool times /restriction (ex housing/wheel)
generally a 54~60 trim is a good size range on the compressor 54 = lower power levels up to the 60 trim (flows more)
generally a .84~1.15 P trim (ex wheel/housing) is acceptable for most street ported rotaries .84 = better spool less top end ~~~1.15 equals slower spool better top end flow. the diff is basically over a 1200 rpm range from one to the other.
these are the accepted range of norms for a 13b for a T04E, a T04B will be different, as a 60-1 will be slightly different (different compressor wheel designs)
gotta search for more info though as this thread would continue on forever with already posted data.
kenn
04-30-05, 10:01 AM
#12
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Turbo vs. Supercharger
4/3/2002 11:31:00 PM
4/3/2002 11:31:00 PM
It's one of the most common questions we are asked - the answer to which is almost impossible to find
"What is better - a supercharger or a turbo?"
"What is better - a supercharger or a turbo?"
We only wish the answer were that simple, but unfortunately it is not. The simple answer is:
"It depends."
But don't worry, we'll go into more depth than that here. Both superchargers and turbos have distinct advantages and disadvantages. Selecting the right kind of forced induction for your vehicle will depend upon your particular vehicle, your driving habits, your power preferences, and your needs.
"It depends."
But don't worry, we'll go into more depth than that here. Both superchargers and turbos have distinct advantages and disadvantages. Selecting the right kind of forced induction for your vehicle will depend upon your particular vehicle, your driving habits, your power preferences, and your needs.
Clearing Up Confusion
<hr align="left"> According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, a supercharger is defined as:
"a device (as a blower or compressor) for pressurizing the cabin of an airplane or for increasing the volume air charge of an internal combustion engine over that which would normally be drawn in through the pumping action of the pistons".
A turbocharger is defined as:
"a centrifugal blower driven by exhaust gas turbines and used to supercharge an engine".
"a device (as a blower or compressor) for pressurizing the cabin of an airplane or for increasing the volume air charge of an internal combustion engine over that which would normally be drawn in through the pumping action of the pistons".
A turbocharger is defined as:
"a centrifugal blower driven by exhaust gas turbines and used to supercharge an engine".
According to Webster's, a turbocharger is included in the definition for superchargers - it is in fact a very specific type of supercharger - one that is driven by exhaust gasses. Other superchargers that do not fall into this category - the kind that we are all used to hearing about - are normally driven directly from the engine's crankshaft via a crank pulley. So in reality, it is not fair to compare all superchargers to turbochargers, because all turbochargers are also superchargers. For the purpose of this discussion, however, a supercharger will be considered all superchargers that are are not driven directly by the engine, while turbochargers will be considered all superchargers that are driven by engine exhaust gasses.
Similarities
<hr align="left"> Both superchargers and turbochargers are forced induction systems and thus have the same objective - to compress air and force more air molecules into the engine's combustion chambers than would normally be allowed at atmospheric pressure here on Earth (14.7 psi at sea level). The benefit of forcing more air molecules into the combustion chambers is that it allows your engine to burn more fuel per power stroke. With an internal combustion engine, burning more fuel means that you convert more fuel into energy and power. For this reason, supercharged and turbocharged engines normally produce 40% to 100%+ more power (depending on the amount of boost - check out our horespower calculator) than normally aspirated engines.
How They Work
<hr align="left"> A supercharger is mounted to the engine and is driven by a pulley that is inline with the crank (or accessory) belt. Air is drawn into the supercharger and compressed by either an impeller (centrifugal-style supercharger), twin rotating screws (screw-type supercharger), or counter-rotating rotors (roots-type supercharger). The air is then discharged into the engine's intake. Faster crank speed (more engine rpm) spins the supercharger faster and allows the supercharger to produce more boost (normally 6 to 9 psi for a street vehicle). Typical peak operating speeds for a supercharger are around 15,000 rpm (screw-type and roots style superchargers) and 40,000 rpm (centrifugal-style superchargers).
A turbocharger operates in much the same way as a centrifugal (internal impeller) supercharger, except it is not driven by pulleys and belts attached to the engine's crank. A turbo is instead driven by exhaust gasses that have been expelled by the engine and are travelling through the exhaust manifold. The exhaust gas flows through one half of the turbocharger's turbine, which drives the impeller that compresses the air. Typical operating speeds of a turbocharger are between 75,000 and 150,000 rpm.
Head to Head Comparison
<hr align="left"> Now it's time to evaluate the turbocharger versus the supercharger according to several important factors.
Cost
The cost of supercharger and a turbocharger systems for the same engine are approximately the same, so cost is generally not a factor.
The cost of supercharger and a turbocharger systems for the same engine are approximately the same, so cost is generally not a factor.
Lag
This is perhaps the biggest advantage that the supercharger enjoys over the tubo. Because a turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, the turbocharger's turbine must first spool up before it even begins to turn the compressor's impeller. This results in lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. During this lag time, the turbocharger is creating little to no boost, which means little to no power gains during this time. Smaller turbos spool up quicker, which eliminates some of this lag. Turbochargers thus utilize a wastegate, which allows the use of a smaller turbocharger to reduce lag while preventing it from spinning too quickly at high engine speeds. The wastegate is a valve that allows the exhaust to bypass the turbine blades. The wastegate senses boost pressure, and if it gets too high, it could be an indicator that the turbine is spinning too quickly, so the wastegate bypasses some of the exhaust around the turbine blades, allowing the blades to slow down..
A Supercharger, on the other hand, is connected directly to the crank, so there is no "lag". Superchargers are able to produce boost at a very low rpm, especially screw-type and roots type blowers.
This is perhaps the biggest advantage that the supercharger enjoys over the tubo. Because a turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, the turbocharger's turbine must first spool up before it even begins to turn the compressor's impeller. This results in lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. During this lag time, the turbocharger is creating little to no boost, which means little to no power gains during this time. Smaller turbos spool up quicker, which eliminates some of this lag. Turbochargers thus utilize a wastegate, which allows the use of a smaller turbocharger to reduce lag while preventing it from spinning too quickly at high engine speeds. The wastegate is a valve that allows the exhaust to bypass the turbine blades. The wastegate senses boost pressure, and if it gets too high, it could be an indicator that the turbine is spinning too quickly, so the wastegate bypasses some of the exhaust around the turbine blades, allowing the blades to slow down..
A Supercharger, on the other hand, is connected directly to the crank, so there is no "lag". Superchargers are able to produce boost at a very low rpm, especially screw-type and roots type blowers.
Efficiency
This is the turbo's biggest advantage. The turbocharger is generally more economical to operate as it as it is driven primarily by potential energy in the exhaust gasses that would otherwise be lost out the exhaust, whereas a supercharger draws power from the crank, which can be used to turn the wheels. The turbocharger's impeller is also powered only under boost conditions, so there is less parasitic drag while the impeller is not spinning. The turbocharger, however, is not free of inefficiency as it does create additional exhaust backpressure and exhaust flow interruption.
This is the turbo's biggest advantage. The turbocharger is generally more economical to operate as it as it is driven primarily by potential energy in the exhaust gasses that would otherwise be lost out the exhaust, whereas a supercharger draws power from the crank, which can be used to turn the wheels. The turbocharger's impeller is also powered only under boost conditions, so there is less parasitic drag while the impeller is not spinning. The turbocharger, however, is not free of inefficiency as it does create additional exhaust backpressure and exhaust flow interruption.
Heat
Because the turbocharger is mounted to the exhaust manifold (which is very hot), turbocharger boost is subject to additional heating via the turbo's hot casing. Because hot air expands (the opposite goal of a turbo or supercharger), an intercooler becomes necessary on almost all turbocharged applications to cool the air charge before it is released into the engine. This increases the complexity of the installation. A centrifugal supercharger on the other hand creates a cooler air discharge, so an intercooler is often not necessary at boost levels below 10psi. That said, some superchargers (especially roots-type superchargers) create hotter discharge temperatures, which also make an intecooler necessary even on fairly low-boost applications.
Because the turbocharger is mounted to the exhaust manifold (which is very hot), turbocharger boost is subject to additional heating via the turbo's hot casing. Because hot air expands (the opposite goal of a turbo or supercharger), an intercooler becomes necessary on almost all turbocharged applications to cool the air charge before it is released into the engine. This increases the complexity of the installation. A centrifugal supercharger on the other hand creates a cooler air discharge, so an intercooler is often not necessary at boost levels below 10psi. That said, some superchargers (especially roots-type superchargers) create hotter discharge temperatures, which also make an intecooler necessary even on fairly low-boost applications.
Surge
Because a turbocharger first spools up before the boost is delivered to the engine, there is a surge of power that is delivered immediately when the wastegate opens (around 3000 rpm). This surge can be damaging to the engine and drivetrain, and can make the vehicle difficult to drive or lose traction.
Because a turbocharger first spools up before the boost is delivered to the engine, there is a surge of power that is delivered immediately when the wastegate opens (around 3000 rpm). This surge can be damaging to the engine and drivetrain, and can make the vehicle difficult to drive or lose traction.
Back Pressure
Because the supercharger eliminates the need to deal with the exhaust gas interruption created by inserting a turbocharger turbine into the exhaust flow, the supercharger creates no additional exhaust backpressure. The amount of power that is lost by a turbo's turbine reduces it's overall efficiency.
Because the supercharger eliminates the need to deal with the exhaust gas interruption created by inserting a turbocharger turbine into the exhaust flow, the supercharger creates no additional exhaust backpressure. The amount of power that is lost by a turbo's turbine reduces it's overall efficiency.
Noise
The turbocharger is generally quiter than the supercharger. Because the turbo's turbine is in the exhaust, the turbo can substantially reduce exhaust noise, making the engine run quieter. Some centrifugal superchargers are known to be noisy and whistley which, annoys some drivers (we, however, love it!)
The turbocharger is generally quiter than the supercharger. Because the turbo's turbine is in the exhaust, the turbo can substantially reduce exhaust noise, making the engine run quieter. Some centrifugal superchargers are known to be noisy and whistley which, annoys some drivers (we, however, love it!)
Reliability
In general, superchargers enjoy a substantial reliability advantage over the turbocharger. When a a turbo is shut off (i.e. when the engine is turned off), residual oil inside the turbo's bearings can be baked by stored engine heat. This, combined with the turbo's extremely high rpms (up to 150,000rpm) can cause problems with the turbo's internal bearings and can shorten the life of the turbocharger. In addition, many turbos require aftermarket exhaust manifolds, which are often far less reliable than stock manifolds.
In general, superchargers enjoy a substantial reliability advantage over the turbocharger. When a a turbo is shut off (i.e. when the engine is turned off), residual oil inside the turbo's bearings can be baked by stored engine heat. This, combined with the turbo's extremely high rpms (up to 150,000rpm) can cause problems with the turbo's internal bearings and can shorten the life of the turbocharger. In addition, many turbos require aftermarket exhaust manifolds, which are often far less reliable than stock manifolds.
Ease of Installation
Superchargers are substantially easier to install than a turbos because they have far fewer components and simpler devices. Turbos are complex and require manifold and exhaust modifications, intercoolers, extra oil lines, etc. - most of which is not needed with most superchargers. A novice home mechanic can easily install most supercharger systems, while a turbo installation should be left to a turbo expert.
Superchargers are substantially easier to install than a turbos because they have far fewer components and simpler devices. Turbos are complex and require manifold and exhaust modifications, intercoolers, extra oil lines, etc. - most of which is not needed with most superchargers. A novice home mechanic can easily install most supercharger systems, while a turbo installation should be left to a turbo expert.
Maximum Power Output
Turbos are known for their unique ability to spin to incredibly high rpms and make outrages peak boost figures (25psi+). While operating a turbocharger at very high levels of boost requires major modifications to the rest of the engine, the turbo is capable of producing more peak power than superchargers.
Turbos are known for their unique ability to spin to incredibly high rpms and make outrages peak boost figures (25psi+). While operating a turbocharger at very high levels of boost requires major modifications to the rest of the engine, the turbo is capable of producing more peak power than superchargers.
Tunability
Turbochargers, because they are so complex and rely on exhaust pressure, are notoriously difficult to tune. Superchargers, on the other hand, require few fuel and ignition upgrades and normally require little or no engine tuning.
Turbochargers, because they are so complex and rely on exhaust pressure, are notoriously difficult to tune. Superchargers, on the other hand, require few fuel and ignition upgrades and normally require little or no engine tuning.
Conclusion
<hr align="left"> While the supercharger is generally considered to be a better method of forced induction for most street and race vehicles, the turbo will always have its place in a more specialized market. Superchargers generally provide a much broader powerband that most drivers are looking for with no "turbo lag". In addition, they are much easier to install and tune, making them more practical for a home or novice mechanic.
We hope you have found this discussion informative and unbiased. Sometimes when we explain this to our customers, they say that we are biased towards superchargers because that is all we carry. We remind those customers that a turbo is a kind of supercharger and that we truly hope to carry turbochargers someday. The reason we do not currently sell any turbochargers is because we have not yet found a turbo system that is suitable for mail-order / e-commerce sale. We are not prepared to sell a turbo system that is difficult to install and requires the attention of a professional engine tuner or mechanic. If any turbocharger manufacturer makes such a system, please send us the details as we would love to carry such a product.
From: superchargeronline.com
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