NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

Hey guys I was hoping somebody could help me out with some info on using them MAP based mode vs the old Load timing.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

At 10psi I was going to set trailing split to 12, and leading advance to about 15 degrees. I was told these are "very common conservative settings" and was gonna start there in MAP mode.

Any information or input is appreciated. Thanks!

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

I'd also love to see any fuel maps and the logs they were derived from. I'm trying to figure out more info on tuning using a AFRs and the pocketloger software. Like if you could show me your logs and then explain what corrections were made to the fuel/timing maps and why you made them, I would be eternally grateful for the help here.

HHTurboVert

You will need to know a lot about timing if you are planning on making the entire map yourself. To get started, if you haven't already, read though these stickies from the single turbo section, they have a lot of really good timing info in them.

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-faq-122/advancing-timing-high-rpm-101226/
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-faq-122/how-many-run-no-split-timing-325400/
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-faq-122/timing-afr-q-185564/


I would post my map but I can't seem to get my computer to play nice with my palm. We have very similar setups so you could probably get away with running a variation on what I'm using. However, if I were you I would spend the time to learn to design your map yourself. Lean about general timing trends and then look for others maps from other ems's (since you won't find any for Rteks yet) to get a feel for what has worked for others, and how the maps need to change for different engine configurations. After all this you can make a decent base map but should still dial it in on a dyno since every car is different.

I started messing with the boost based timing with a map like what you suggested @10psi and it was a very noticeable drop in power compared to the load based map @10psi. I've since reduced the split some and advanced the timing quite a bit as engine speed increases. I've also spent a lot of time trying different things in the vacuum map, I feel like a lot of advance and zero split seems to make the engine most responsive in vacuum, but I'm still going to do some MPG tests to see how it is affecting my gas millage. With gas creeping towards $5/gal I've got to get my baby up toward 16-17mpg's. She's averaging about 14 right now .

Good luck, don't blow it! Literally ;p

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

I appreciate the input and links, however it seems like most of those guys are running more boost or ported motors. I am looking more for info regarding the stock ports and 10psi.

I have access to a map that is slightly modified from stock that was used a similar setup but the guy had a bigger turbo.

I'll keep reading up....but if anyone has a stock timing map in MAP Timing I would love to see it. Thanks guys.

boost_its_what_for_dinner

you may just stick with the stock timing, hell i ran 13 psi on stock map for like 6 monts them switched to load based for 13+psi i always ran premium

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

""The ECU is shipped with MAP Based Timimg mode turned off, so the ECU uses the stock timing maps (Load vs RPM) which can be edited by the user. "" - Digital Tuning

Did you mean to say you used the Load vs RPM based timing mode for 6 months @ 13psi and then switched to the MAP based timing mode for +13psi??

Did you make any changes to the Load based maps when you were at 13psi???
Thanks.

boost_its_what_for_dinner

^i meant to say i kept it with the stock timing in the load vs. rpm not boost based.

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

okay well that's encouraging is some ways. I had heard that most of the benefit to the MAP based timing is for over 10psi, so I was hoping to start with the Load based and stick to 10psi until I learn more about the black art of timing changes on a rotary.

Where did you get the base maps or ideas for base maps when you switched to MAP based timing?

Thanks for your input man.

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

the way i look at timing is just a way of controlling the chance of detonation. the higher risk areas are the high load areas.. ie high boost AND low RPM. this is where the timing needs to be most retarded. timing split also helps in reducing the chance of detonation, the higher the split, the more controlled the burn. Firing both plugs at the same time creates a more powerful slightly less controlled explosion

If you look at the stock timing map, it is most retarded (and largest split) at the low rpm/high boost areas

here are the timing maps i am using (MAP based timing), i believe i used 95gnracer's maps and modified them. mine are very conservative, and im still messing around with negative split in vacuum. i get 24mpg highway with this map



also when you are tuning the fuel maps, dont expect to end up with flat horizontal lines.. any serious mod is going to make your fuel maps look like diagonally increasing lines. It should be flowing a lot more air at higher rpm and boost than stock, where as fuel correction down near idle will be pretty much the same as stock

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

Thank you so much... I had seen 95nracer maps but they were much different.

Are you running stock ports? Does porting have a major impact on what sort of timing you run?

How much would you change these maps for a BNR Stg 1 at 10psi on stock ports?

One last noob question, is the Trailing map the same as the leading or am I missing something major here? I only ever see maps for the Leading and the split???

Here is my setup for reference:
Rtek7 Stage 2.1 ECU Upgrade
(4) 720cc Injectors w/ new connectors
255lph fuel pump
BNR Stage 1 Hybrid Turbo w/ 30mm WG
SS Turbo Oil Feed Line
High Flow Intake
Custom TID
Blitz SS BOV
NGK A/Fx Wideband O2 Monitor
NGK Wires
Autometer Boost Gauge
Racing Beat Downpipe
3” Magnaflow Hi-Flow Cat to Dual Tips
Complete Emissions Block Off Kit w/Rats Nest Removal
Double Belted Alternator Pulley
Clutch Pilot Bearing and Bearing Seal
F1 Stage 2 Clutch and Heavy Duty Pressure Plate
J-Spec Transmission
J-Spec Clutch Type LSD
Short Shift Kit
Brake Master Cylinder
Slotted Rotors
Brake Pads
Newer Rear Axles
OEM Ball Joints
KYB AGX's
Racing Beat Lowering Springs
OEM Shock Mounts and Spring Seats
Mazdatrix Competition Differential Bushings
Mazdatrix Competition Motor Mounts
Atkin's Rotary Solid Thermal Pellet Upgrade
Front Main Seal
Rear Main Seal
Vacuum Spider
Coolant O-rings
Reconditioned LIM
LIM to Engine gasket
Fuel lines, injectors, grommets and o-rings
Oil metering pump lines
Thermostat
Thermo-wax Hose
Fuel lines w/ t-clamps
Reconditioned Throttle Body
Vacuum Lines and caps
Reconditioned UIM
Radiator Hoses
Battery Terminals
TCSportline Front Strut Brace
RX7 Sport Spoiler
SportMax 962’s w/ Kumho Ecsta ASX
Projector Styled 8000K HID's




I am still planning on the following:

Greddy Profec B Spec 2
Rear Camber Adjust Link
SS Oil Cooler Lines
SS Brake and Clutch Lines
Turbo Blanket



Thanks again for any input at all, I really do appreciate it man.

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

im on a stockport for now, but ill be using the same timing map for my new streetport. this map would be fine for any BNR

the split map is the difference between leading and trailing. so if L is 20 and split is 5, then trailing would be 15

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

Okay, so it's Leading - Split = Trailing.

Can you take a look at the attached file, I have filled in the values for the 2560 column. Is this correct??

Do you actually have to input all of the values for all three tables or does the Trailing get filled automatically after doing the Leading and Split maps? I had heard that Trailing is changed when you change Split, but does it does it happen automatically in the software??

Thanks again for all the help with this.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

just to confirm, the "split" map posted is in degrees of difference between leading and trailing, correct? It is not an actual trailing map, but a split map, right?

I was the one who mentioned 15 advance 12 split. That is common on FD's at 14-15psi with a medium single turbo. At 10psi on a BNR stage 1, that would be plenty safe, and then you can add timing if you are on the dyno or have an EGT gauge. Or you could go by the butt dyno but it's going to be a bit riskier. I like gxl90rx7's leading map though. When you get on to the dyno, you can experiment a little with the curve at high rpm. You want to have a little less aggressive timing at peak torque, whatever that may be on your setup.

gxl90rx7, you've got a lot of split in that map, more than most people would run if you poke around the single turbo and Power FC forums, and those are mostly on FD's with 9:1 rotors. More than 12-13 split is probably going to cost you power. I experimented with 10 and 12 split @ 18psi on a 60-1 turbo (100 octane unleaded fuel though) and noticed no real difference, so I kept it at 12. If it were me, I would take your 8.5 psi row on your split map and just copy the same numbers all the way up to 16psi, or you can adjust the split curve and have it increase more gradually to 13. There is no need to have more than 13 split on your setup (yes I know I am on race gas and you are pump gas). I wouldn't run more than 13 on any boost level achievable with the stock FC map sensor.

Before I went to the dyno, I had initially run rather flat timing up to 6000rpm and then advanced it up to 8000. When I got to the dyno I found out that my torque peak was around 5000 and hp peak was around 7200, so I advanced it a little after 5200. Even with this adjustment, all it did was add a few hp in the 5000 to 7000 range, but peak numbers didn't budge much. You would think it would make a bigger difference on race gas, but it didn't.

As far as tuning vacuum leading advance, I think you can keep advancing it a little more until around 5000 - 6000 rpm, and then I would keep the same numbers you have there already for the rest of the high rpm vacuum map. Normally when you let off the throttle from a WOT run you will be in the high vacuum (- 19.4 ish) , high rpm area. To reduce knock count you would want this to have a little less timing here. Can you datalog knock count (stock sensor) on the Rtek 2.1 ? Probably not, as it normally goes to the knock control box.

If your leading advance is too retarded under low load, you may notice some bucking around town. I had that problem when I ran megasquirt and my basemap was too retarded for my porting. Adding a little timing in the idle area might also improve cold starts and idle if you have bigger ports, but I'm not sure if the Rtek actually uses those numbers for cold start and idle or if it has some other [possibly inaccessible] map.

When I get a chance I will post some Power FC timing maps. They are in K/cm^2 but they will give you an idea at least.

boost_its_what_for_dinner

ohhhhh???? hey gxl90 i have had some start issues and cold idle probs where it will lean out and die??? but once it warms up just a little its fine? we are running the same timing but i have very large ports? any suggestions since im a newb when it come to timing adjustments even thugh i probably could figure it out i dont really have the time to take the time if you know what i mean...

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

thanks arghx, lots of good info.. the timing at idle is fixed at -5 with 15 split so we cant adjust that. my dyno numbers did seem low, ill try lowering the split and see what happens

do you have thermowax still installed? I have no thermowax, so i have to give it throttle for the first 30 seconds or so on cold starts, but after that it idles fine

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

Hey more great information!!

(Leading) -(Split)= (Trailing)

So if a given Leading Map cell reads 32 and the corresponding Split cell reads -6 would the Trailing cell read 38???

I'm still trying to understand how one would calculate the Trailing map based on the other two maps? And we would have to enter each of the three maps manually right? or does the Rtek fill in the Trailing map based on the Leading and Split values we enter??

I've made up my mind to stick with the stock Load vs RPM timing maps for now but I would still like to learn more about timing so that one day I can make the switch to MAP based timing.

Thanks for the help guys.

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

correct, when you change the split map, the leading stays the same.. the trailing map will automatically update. But when you change the leading map, the trailing will stay the same, so you have to redo your split map after changing the leading

hope thats not confusing

definatly look at the timing map, the stock map has 35 degrees adv at 100% load near redline.. im not sure if that is a mistake, but it cant be good

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

nope I got it now. Thanks.

Silverfc88

iTrader: (7)

Sorry I didn't get back to you NJgreenbud, but looks like you got some good info going on in here.




This is what I'm currently running for split. I have the same numbers going all the way across.

PSI/VAC............Split

16.....................14
14.5..................13
13.....................11.6
11.5..................10.9
10.....................10.2
8.5....................9.1
7.......................8.1
5.5....................6
4.......................5.3
2.5....................3.2
1.......................0
1.......................-3.5
-4.1..................-6
-7.1..................-8.1
-10.1................-10.2
-13.3................-11.3
-16.3................-12
-19.4................-13



I have the slight bucking issue every once in a while cruising sometimes. So I'm going to be making some changes to my maps again to get rid of it. No problems with startups though.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

so does the Rtek allow you to directly enter in a split number, or do you have to do the calculation on a spreadsheet and then put it in as trailing degrees?

Silverfc88

iTrader: (7)

It actually lets us input split where we want it. Then it updates the trailing on its own.

Silverfc88

iTrader: (7)

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

That's awesome man. Thanks!

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

************************************************** ******************
We need the ability to remotely modify the fuel and timing maps on a PC and then load it into the Palm and transfer to the ECU.

Please.

************************************************** ***************

Silverfc88

iTrader: (7)

Before I went out tonight I gave it some timing in the low rpm and vac area and it seemed like the bucking went away. I'll have to drive it around a few days, do a couple of logs and see how it does.



Like GXL90RX7 said. If you make any changes in the lead map you have to go back to your split map and redo the cells that you changed in the
lead map.



I totally agree on the ability to change your maps on the pc and then load it on to the palm. The way it is now you need a few hours to get everything where you want.