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Timing / AFR Q!

 
 
 
 
Old 05-12-03, 01:09 AM
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Cool Timing / AFR Q!

Hey guys,

I was wondering what your timing values were at >15psi with a 60-1 (or related) turbo. I've got a pretty 'standard' setup (E6K, stock ports, .96A/R TO4B 60-1, 3" exhaust, etc.), and am trying to tune the car a bit better. Right now my timing values are...

PSI *BTDC
15 11
18 9
19 8
21 6
25 0-->

Timing split:

PSI *BTDC
15 13
18 16
19 19
21 20-->

The car has stock plugs and ignition at the moment, would I benefit by going to 9's all around? Would an ignition amp help at all?

AFR is about 11:1 from 12psi on up (or will be... 18psi is way too rich at the moment, runs less power than 15psi )
Unfortunately this is on CA pump gas (91 octane), but my intake temps are always below 120*F, and usually below 100*F. I've done a few calculations, and my guess is 335rwhp at 15.5psi of boost, which seems a bit low for this setup. Is it safe to lean things out to ~11.5:1 AFR? Can I bump the timing up a few degrees? I was also wondering if it was possible to verify that the timing marks on the crank pulley were dead on. Is there any way to check this?

Many people seem to pull a decent bit more power than I am on the same turbo / motor setup. Jason Kennedy (from www.teamfc3s.org) just laid down 380rwhp on the same [email protected], stock port S5 13BT. Where'd those 50HP come from?

Any suggestions / comments would be greatly appreciated! There are a few guys running ~20psi on pump gas, how far does timing have to be retarded to make this reasonably safe?

Thanks!
-Manolis
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Old 05-12-03, 02:30 AM
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What is your timing at peak torque? Where does the timing you have listed take place rpm wise?
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Old 05-12-03, 06:43 AM
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unless i am reading something wrong... why such a large split on the trailing?
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Old 05-12-03, 08:55 AM
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Your split is to high. Lower it to around 10 and you will pickup some HP.
You could also advance the timing a few degrees, those are conservative numbers.
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Old 05-12-03, 09:57 AM
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I wouldn't take any fuel out right now, if you're going to play with timing. Also, don't play with the timing until you have an ignition amp(s). Better safe.

You should be on 9's now. After the amp you might need to goto 10's or use a copper washer on the 9's if you end up burning through them quickly. Plugs are a 'wear' part that should be checked/changed regularly. Start with fresh plugs and wires when you start dinking around with timing.

Any split larger than 12 is probably not neccessary. You're leaving more HP out by the conservative leading than just pushing the split down close to it.

Tony
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Old 05-12-03, 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by Jason
Your split is to high. Lower it to around 10 and you will pickup some HP.
You could also advance the timing a few degrees, those are conservative numbers.
I agree, some of the most hp is made when the split is zero but few are doing that....

Anthony
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Old 05-12-03, 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by AnthonyNYC
I agree, some of the most hp is made when the split is zero but few are doing that....

Anthony
I wouldn't run 0 spilt on a PFC or Haltech, that's for sure. Not unless I am running multiple ignition amps and can avoid negative split at all costs. I think those "few" have a fair amount invested in thier ignition! I bet the power payoff is pretty good!
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Old 05-12-03, 08:00 PM
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Marshall: Those values are for all rpm ranges above ~3k
Sorry about the confusing split timing values -- "*BTDC" should read "Split", here's what it should read:

15psi 13*split
18psi 16* split
20psi 21* split

Jason: lower it to 10* where? Should I drop the split by 3* across the boost curve)?

Badog: What does the ignition amp do for safety? I assume you mean putting something like an MSD 6A on the leadings? Thanks for the tip on the 9's, I'll get them in there ASAP.

Thanks for the info guys!
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Old 05-12-03, 09:52 PM
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Seems most people have good luck with just running the stock FC coils, talk to AJC-13B. He ran and may still be running stock coils on his big HP 13b.

Oh yeah, did you get that disk out in the mail?

-Cam
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Old 05-12-03, 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by Manolis_D
Marshall: Those values are for all rpm ranges above ~3k
Sorry about the confusing split timing values -- "*BTDC" should read "Split", here's what it should read:

15psi 13*split
18psi 16* split
20psi 21* split

Jason: lower it to 10* where? Should I drop the split by 3* across the boost curve)?

Badog: What does the ignition amp do for safety? I assume you mean putting something like an MSD 6A on the leadings? Thanks for the tip on the 9's, I'll get them in there ASAP.

Thanks for the info guys!
I don't think there should be more than 12-14 split in any part of the map. We are talking Leading - Trailing for split, right? 16-21 split is TOO HUGE.

I wouldn't run less than 12 split without an amp. That includes a margin error for the ECU control of the ignition.

Remember, use the PLATINUM NGKs, and keep an eye on them.

Tony
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Old 05-13-03, 12:31 AM
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Mailing the disk in the morning! (forgot it today.. doh!)

Badog: I'll try reducing the split to 10* at 15psi, moving on up to 15* at 20psi and up. I'll also add 1* of timing to the main map (bumping leading timing to 12*BTDC at 15psi I still don't understand how running an ignition amp helps with accuracy / makes anything safer, perhaps you could explain it a bit more? As far as plugs go, what is the advantage to using the platinum NGK's (instead of standard BUR9EQ's all around)? Is it just life?

Thanks!!!
-Manolis
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Old 05-13-03, 01:36 AM
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Why do the aussie guys seem to like more conservative timing? Anybody notice that?
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Old 05-13-03, 05:39 AM
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manolis_d: thry reading through this thread. https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...ighlight=split
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Old 05-13-03, 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by Badog
Remember, use the PLATINUM NGKs, and keep an eye on them.

Tony
Tony, why do you push the Platinum plugs? Everything I've heard & read is to the contrary, & the plats should only be used with boost levels of 12PSI & lower.

The B10EGV that many folk here use (including myself) are non-platinum. I've even heard the piston crowd say not to run plats with forced induction.
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Old 05-13-03, 09:03 AM
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I don't think half the people here check their plugs more than once a year and probably need hot plugs. I could eat up a set of 9's quicker than that if they weren't platinum. Other than that, I am ignorant about it.

Es, where is the best price for B10EGV? Be glad to try them and spark some enlightenment
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Old 05-13-03, 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by rxrotary2_7
manolis_d: thry reading through this thread. https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...ighlight=split
That IS a good thread. Good link.
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Old 05-13-03, 10:02 AM
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I ordered 2 sets at $5.99 each from monarchproducts.com, but I think they can be found at motorcycle shops.

They do require a modified spark plug socket since the hex head sits all the way against the rotor housing.
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Old 05-13-03, 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by Marshall
Why do the aussie guys seem to like more conservative timing? Anybody notice that?
In what way?
Do you consider 13* advance at 15psi conservative for 91 Octane?

I always thought that was a good compromise...
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Old 05-13-03, 07:27 PM
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In the upper revs, yes. At peak torque however, I would consider it a little dangerous.
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Old 05-13-03, 07:36 PM
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As of late I've been using the B-10EIX NGK plugs. Basicaly they are the Iridium versions of the 10 EGV's.
They are much supperior to the regular plugs in both performance and durability.

crispeed
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Old 05-13-03, 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by Manolis_D
Mailing the disk in the morning! (forgot it today.. doh!)
-Manolis
Thanks again

-Cam
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Old 05-14-03, 12:02 AM
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Chris,

What gap do you recommend for 25psi or less???

Nice to see you're still around.....

thanks
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Old 05-14-03, 02:35 AM
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I just talked to Suganuma online for a bit. He's running pretty much the same turbo (T61) with a streetport. He said he can make full boost almost 1500rpm earlier than me (I can't get full boost until ~5400 rpm... doh). The car also only makes 3.5-4psi of boost at 3000rpm (floored, 5th gear, holding rpm). Could this be caused by just timing, or is there something bigger awry here?

Thanks guys... This is harder than it looks, and it's the first time I've messed around with something like this (I'm only 18 ... lol)

-Manolis

Last edited by Manolis_D; 05-14-03 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 05-16-03, 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by Manolis_D
I just talked to Suganuma online for a bit. He's running pretty much the same turbo (T61) with a streetport. He said he can make full boost almost 1500rpm earlier than me (I can't get full boost until ~5400 rpm... doh). The car also only makes 3.5-4psi of boost at 3000rpm (floored, 5th gear, holding rpm). Could this be caused by just timing, or is there something bigger awry here?

Thanks guys... This is harder than it looks, and it's the first time I've messed around with something like this (I'm only 18 ... lol)

-Manolis
You're doing good, Manolis. Just be very careful when working with this stuff because just a few extra 'clicks' of the ignition bars and KABOOM -> your 13B will be a door stop.

On the boost stuff, I recommend using a standalone, electronic boost controller like a GReddy PROfec B. Configured for both wastegate vacuum/pressure feeds, it should help wonders with getting into boost earlier.

B
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Old 05-16-03, 01:04 PM
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By the way folks, be careful using non-resistor plugs on a Haltech system (and possibly some of the other standalone EFI's). I've been told that using a non-resistor plug plus a racing-style of plug wire can create trigger interference to the ECU. Keep this in mind.

I believe in the use of the BUR9EQ plugs. Not sure if platinum has proven itself or not other than it being merely a cool name.

B
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