Peacedog94

Fellas,
Just curious, but does anyone know why the 20B, or any three or four rotor motor, has never been offered by Mazda in the US on a production vehicle? Was it a matter of emissions or fuel economy?

DriftFB

Mazda never offered a production 4 rotor, and the 3 rotor Mazda Cosmo started production in I believe '94, but I'm not too sure.

Rotaries aren't too popular in America, and they where stopping the FD sales in '94 with the 95 model year, so it was probabley bad timing.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the us spec jc cosmo (with rx8 badges on it) set the carpets on fire, i guess the extra cat+heat was bad....

also it would get about 10mpg....

Heisenberg

iTrader: (3)

Obd2

fluffysheap

Since Mazda only put the 20B in the Cosmo which they didn't sell in the US, they'd have to get the car certified for safety which is very expensive. Mazda just doesn't do luxury upscale cars in the US market. I don't think they even made the Cosmo in left hand drive.

OBD2 didn't come out until '96 so it didn't affect the Cosmo. But it contributed a lot to why the FD was discontinued here.

jgrewe

iTrader: (1)

I wonder if the performance potential and insurance costs were an issue? We don't get a lot of cars here because of the lawyers.

Peacedog94

The gas mileage thing I could see being a real factor. I don't think many people would buy a sportscar these days that got much less than 16mpg highway. But still, a three rotor Renisis motor or 20G (or whatever they would call it) would be a real V-8 killer. I think that would drive up demand by itself.

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

There are tons of cars (even then) that had more power output stock then the Cosmo, so I really don't think performance has anything to do with it. If that were the case the small block chevy or LT5 wouldn't have been sold either; it's not a particularly expensive car, so insurance wouldn't matter either.

As far as "the lawyers" go; it's more then likely just what was already said, Mazda had no desire to make the car meet US crash and emissions testing (not lawyers, it's the EPA/USDOT/etc), and they never bothered to put the 3 rotor in anything else in Japan, why bother putting it in anything else here?

There was no conspiracy, just a business decision by Mazda, and considering the way the RX7 sales and warranty issues went, along with OBDII issues, probably a GOOD business decision, even if the performance crowd would have been happier otherwise.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

i would tend agree with this. this was pretty much the time when the Japanese sports car died here. i remember going to buy an MR2 Turbo in early 1995 and being quoted $40,000+. annual insurance on the same car was about the cost of an economy car (brand new). the writing was on the wall for the Rx-7 and there was no way it made sense for Mazda to bring the Cosmo here.

while i agree with you that it was a business decision, and a good one to boot, i disagree with there being no conspiracy (not concrete) and with your LT5 argument for support. okay, "conspiracy" may be a little strong, but there was definitely a systematic process at work that killed the "real" Japanese sports cars. laws, taxes and insurance were all contributing factors - effective ones, too. as for the LT5 and SBC, yeah, they are great performance engines, but they also put money in GM's pocket, whereas engines such as the REW, the VG30DETT and 2JZ-GTE did not.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i think that was a poor choice on mazda's part. the fd turbo setup is cool, and on the street it performs wonderfully, but it was too complex for its own good. its dumb too, cause cars like the 323 gtx had all the boost hoses clamped off, and the fd didnt, it would have cost them a little more per car, but you have any idea how many $2000+gaskets and hardware+labor turbo sets were changed because a vacuum line popped off?

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

well, don't get me wrong. i'm totally in agreement that the FD's setup was phenomenal (i imagine the Cosmo was very similar) and if vacuum hoses and early cooling issues didn't cause a stigma for it, it may have been able to hang on to the end (i think Toyota finally threw in the towel in '97). however, i don't think a more reliable FD would have allowed it to live in this country much longer than it did. introducing the Cosmo here, while it would have probably done well a few years out of novelty, i think it would have died, too. i'm sure not even close to being the best business mind out there, but i think them not bringing it here in that climate was a sound business decision.

JHew84

iTrader: (9)

That's not entirely true, the 929 was aimed at the upscale crowd, I still remember hearing people talking about how it was a cheaper alternative to other luxury sedans when I was younger. Also OBDII did affect the cosmo because mazda would have had to retrofit the car to meet the requirements at huge costs, one more reason it wouldn't be worth it for them to do so.

we can all speculate why they didn't bring over a 20b but we will all probably be wrong and correct at the same time, i'm sure there is a multitude of reasons they didn't.

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

The VG30DETT was killed off for a new engine, and due to it's HUGE complexity, not because of the any government desire to line GM's pockets. Have you ever worked on a VG30DE? What a cluster****.

The 2JZ continued on in the US for quite a while in the Lexus cars, just without the turbos, and I believe the Supra was killed in both countries at the same time.

I'm sorry I just really don't see the conspiracies here. Why didn't these affect the European cars? I'm pretty sure I remember M3s and AMGs in this time frame as well. The Euro cars were already jumping on the OBDII bandwagon, which is what hurt the Jap cars. I guess you could call the creation of OBDII the conspiracy, but it was a long time coming, and the japs had plenty of time to be ready for it. They simply chose to make new cars for it, instead of retrofitting, which is a pretty sensible choice, really.

Valkyrie

Probably because it was too much of a pain to do the emisisons, especially to put it in a car no one would buy (a luxury car that gets 10 mpg but only 300 HP? Not to mention FD sales in the US were CRAP that that time).

slo

iTrader: (1)

According to the Book, Sports Car colour history; Mazda Rx7. There was originaly plans to offer the 20B, or perhaps a similar 3 rotor engine in the FC, an FC was even fitted with a 3 rotor, which was given to american Magazine testers.

Also acording to the same book, they could have used the 3 rotor in the FD. But didn't because of wieght concerns (doesn't make sence to me but thats what it says). Immagine if the 3 rotor did come as oem in the FD, as either a single turbo or NA. The NA version could have been easily more powerfull than the 13b-REW, and would have obviously been reliable, and most certainly been somewhat cheaper. A single turbo version could have easily passed 300 HP, would have been more reliable than the 13b-rew, and probably not much more expensive.

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

Weight would have destroyed the precious 50/50 weight balance that we V8 conversion guys are constantly harped on about. That balance was one of the big keys to Mazda's RX7 marketing material (as evidenced by people still clinging to it years later). Without that, the rotary was just an oddity to most buyers.

rotaryinspired

iTrader: (3)

If you have done a 20B swap into a 2nd gen its amazing at how it fits in there like it was designed to be there. At least I was. I wish we would have seen them in the states, but I guess no one will ever know.

fluffysheap

Sounds like the RX-8, only with more power

As for weight... I think a N/A 20B probably wouldn't have to weigh any more than the 13BREW did with turbos, manifolds and all that.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

well, i'll agree to disagree with you on the conspiracy (for lack of a better term) thing. i've happened across enough articles over time to see what kinds of things the Big 3 will do to sell more cars without having to actually make a better car. you're probably not going to convert me, just like i'm pretty sure that i won't convert you.

OBD II is a valid argument. however, i still believe they were forced out of the market by larger factors.

my mentioning the VG30 and 2JZ were simply to show the trend of the Japanese sports car that they powered - i.e., it wasn't just Mazda and the Rx-7. i know that the 2JZ continued to power cars up until the IS3. no, i've never worked on a 300ZX or pulled apart a VG30, but i don't see how that's relevant to either of our arguments. it was the fact that your argument that "the SBC and LT5 cars were just as powerful and yet they prospered, therefore insurance rates and such were not a factor" seemed to dismiss what i can attest to being a factor that i was addressing. as i mentioned, i was after an MR2 Turbo in the early-to-mid 90's and the jump in price between 1993 and 1995, hell between 1994 and 1995 was crazy. insurance rate spikes were even crazier! so even if i could have afforded the car back then, insurance would have been enough to make me have to get something else.

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

I don't know If everyone else here recalls this detail but I do. In the nineties the Japanese yen was very strong against the dollar. The Japanese tried very hard at that time (and deserve credit where credit is due) to keep the cost of thier cars down so they would be competitive. They cheapened alot of things while trying to maintain performance, styling, and desire in thier products. Look back at how expensive the FD was in '93 compared to performance cars made elsewhere. Even here. They just could not be competitive in that market at the time.

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

A lot of the reason for high insurance on those cars (American performance had high premiums for insurance too at that time though) was the cost and complexity of replacing damaged components.

My point on the VG30 was that it's disappearance was based on engineering and design improvements, not any conspiratory makings. While I'm a big fan of the 2J motors, the same thing was done with them, as Toyota at that point saw no need for a "halo" car in the US.

I think we can all agree that it would have been much more fun if 20B RX7s and Cosmos, 2JZ Chasers and RB26DETT Skylines made it to our shores. But they didn't, and all we can do is theorize.

Hyper4mance2k

iTrader: (40)

The FC was slated to get a 20b, but the 20B did not pass CA emissions, so they canned the idea.

My5ABaby

iTrader: (7)

+1

The rotary engine was (is) also known as a gas burner. With the 7's low MPG Mazda didn't feel that offering an engine with even worse MPG would be a good idea.

mirabile

Man wouldnt that have been nice....

Juiceh

iTrader: (4)

******* CA. emmisions *****!