Why Apex Seals Fail
11-11-09, 06:19 PM
#152
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Thread Starter
Then that lends itself to ceramic surface coatings on the face of the rotors. This would retain more heat at the face and reduce thermal transfer to a point. Side effect is increased risk of preignition.
Hey guys, just to let you know I will be removing and tearing apart the motor finally at the end of this month. Will be taking some detailed pictures of what isn't damaged from the blow up.
Hey guys, just to let you know I will be removing and tearing apart the motor finally at the end of this month. Will be taking some detailed pictures of what isn't damaged from the blow up.
I can't wait to see the pictures of the tear-down! Please post here or tell us where you have published them.
Barry
11-11-09, 06:24 PM
#153
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Thread Starter
I'm no rotary guru but one of the things I have done in the past is run fresh water right from the water pump to the front side of the leading spark plugs. This requires drilling and tapping the rotor housings to accept a fitting as well as the water pump housing for the water supply.
There is a rib that is centered on the spark plug hole and I drilled right through the center of this rib so there was cooler water flowing the entire circumference of the spark plug hole. This could also be done on the trailing but we opted not to do that.
I have no statistics or hard data to prove if this works but it was cheap and any cooler water you can get to the spark plugs can't hurt anything.
I can go into more detail if anyone is interested.
There is a rib that is centered on the spark plug hole and I drilled right through the center of this rib so there was cooler water flowing the entire circumference of the spark plug hole. This could also be done on the trailing but we opted not to do that.
I have no statistics or hard data to prove if this works but it was cheap and any cooler water you can get to the spark plugs can't hurt anything.
I can go into more detail if anyone is interested.
Adam, (afgmoto1978) did a similar mod on his housings. We would like to see your mods.
Barry
11-11-09, 06:37 PM
#154
I'm no rotary guru but one of the things I have done in the past is run fresh water right from the water pump to the front side of the leading spark plugs. This requires drilling and tapping the rotor housings to accept a fitting as well as the water pump housing for the water supply.
There is a rib that is centered on the spark plug hole and I drilled right through the center of this rib so there was cooler water flowing the entire circumference of the spark plug hole. This could also be done on the trailing but we opted not to do that.
I have no statistics or hard data to prove if this works but it was cheap and any cooler water you can get to the spark plugs can't hurt anything.
I can go into more detail if anyone is interested.
There is a rib that is centered on the spark plug hole and I drilled right through the center of this rib so there was cooler water flowing the entire circumference of the spark plug hole. This could also be done on the trailing but we opted not to do that.
I have no statistics or hard data to prove if this works but it was cheap and any cooler water you can get to the spark plugs can't hurt anything.
I can go into more detail if anyone is interested.
11-11-09, 09:51 PM
#155
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I don't have any photos of that project. That was something I did years ago for a customer and I don't have access to the car but I will do my best to convey what I did along with some other photos with descriptions.
1. First I drilled and tapped into the pressure side, (engine in) of the water pump housing on top and installed a 90 degree fitting with pipe threads on one end and hose barb on the other. I think I used 5/16 hose but don't remember now. 3/8 would probably be better. Tapping water form this point gives you the coolest water in the entire cooling system. No photo here. Pretty much self explanatory.
2. I drilled and tapped a hole centered between the front edge of the spark plug hole and the front edge of the rotor housing. I used a couple banjo fittings I had laying around that had about 2 inches of hard line that I could attach the rubber hose to. I ran the hose for both rotor housing to a tee and into the fitting in the water pump housing.
By drilling through the rib inside the water jacket you allow the cooler water to flow to the top and the bottom of the spark plug hole.
I am building an enduro motor for my Miata and am going to do the same thing but with steel braided lines. I will take detailed photos when I get time to work on that project.
1. First I drilled and tapped into the pressure side, (engine in) of the water pump housing on top and installed a 90 degree fitting with pipe threads on one end and hose barb on the other. I think I used 5/16 hose but don't remember now. 3/8 would probably be better. Tapping water form this point gives you the coolest water in the entire cooling system. No photo here. Pretty much self explanatory.
2. I drilled and tapped a hole centered between the front edge of the spark plug hole and the front edge of the rotor housing. I used a couple banjo fittings I had laying around that had about 2 inches of hard line that I could attach the rubber hose to. I ran the hose for both rotor housing to a tee and into the fitting in the water pump housing.
By drilling through the rib inside the water jacket you allow the cooler water to flow to the top and the bottom of the spark plug hole.
I am building an enduro motor for my Miata and am going to do the same thing but with steel braided lines. I will take detailed photos when I get time to work on that project.
Last edited by dgemotorsports; 11-11-09 at 09:52 PM. Reason: Photo did not load
11-12-09, 03:00 AM
#157
but what about having more fuel or a better timming ??? thats supposed to drop some egts ? right?I need a stronger ignition setup to get it richer.
I wont be messing with my car though anymore. Building a new car more track dedicated. That will have a much stronger ignition setup on it.
11-12-09, 04:12 AM
#158
Hey mate. In case you haven't decided on an ignition yet ICE has a new 4 channel 16volt inductive ignition that runs 8ms of dwell. It's designed to work with most aftermarket ecu's and apparently it's better than CDI. It's not on their website yet though.
11-15-09, 06:39 AM
#160
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So just wondering where does the Yoken LS1 coils fall into place??? good, bad, or just not bad. On the rx8 site they claim those are the best coils to date for the rx8. If they was so great why haven't I heard you guys mention them.... I currently do use them and I have no issues with the dwell set at 5ms I believe. They have built in heat sinks
11-15-09, 03:09 PM
#161
i'd go out on a limb and propose two reasons, though i may be way off base.
1. the Rx-8's stock ignition coils are utter CRAP! a healthy toddler could blow them out after a few miles of use. almost anything that can plug in and work with the stock ignition system would be an upgrade.
2. many guys run amplifiers on Rx-7s whereas i don't see much over at the Rx-8 board (granted, i bypass many of the turbo build threads because i just can't stand the nonsense over there). add that to the fact that i believe the factory coils on the Rx-7s were superior to begin with, i don't see why an Rx-7 owner would need to source GM ignition hardware. i have seen a few using other coils, but they were very rare cases of owners at their wit's end trying to solve a specific problem.
1. the Rx-8's stock ignition coils are utter CRAP! a healthy toddler could blow them out after a few miles of use. almost anything that can plug in and work with the stock ignition system would be an upgrade.
2. many guys run amplifiers on Rx-7s whereas i don't see much over at the Rx-8 board (granted, i bypass many of the turbo build threads because i just can't stand the nonsense over there). add that to the fact that i believe the factory coils on the Rx-7s were superior to begin with, i don't see why an Rx-7 owner would need to source GM ignition hardware. i have seen a few using other coils, but they were very rare cases of owners at their wit's end trying to solve a specific problem.
11-15-09, 09:25 PM
#162
I don't have any photos of that project. That was something I did years ago for a customer and I don't have access to the car but I will do my best to convey what I did along with some other photos with descriptions.
1. First I drilled and tapped into the pressure side, (engine in) of the water pump housing on top and installed a 90 degree fitting with pipe threads on one end and hose barb on the other. I think I used 5/16 hose but don't remember now. 3/8 would probably be better. Tapping water form this point gives you the coolest water in the entire cooling system. No photo here. Pretty much self explanatory.
2. I drilled and tapped a hole centered between the front edge of the spark plug hole and the front edge of the rotor housing. I used a couple banjo fittings I had laying around that had about 2 inches of hard line that I could attach the rubber hose to. I ran the hose for both rotor housing to a tee and into the fitting in the water pump housing.
By drilling through the rib inside the water jacket you allow the cooler water to flow to the top and the bottom of the spark plug hole.
I am building an enduro motor for my Miata and am going to do the same thing but with steel braided lines. I will take detailed photos when I get time to work on that project.
1. First I drilled and tapped into the pressure side, (engine in) of the water pump housing on top and installed a 90 degree fitting with pipe threads on one end and hose barb on the other. I think I used 5/16 hose but don't remember now. 3/8 would probably be better. Tapping water form this point gives you the coolest water in the entire cooling system. No photo here. Pretty much self explanatory.
2. I drilled and tapped a hole centered between the front edge of the spark plug hole and the front edge of the rotor housing. I used a couple banjo fittings I had laying around that had about 2 inches of hard line that I could attach the rubber hose to. I ran the hose for both rotor housing to a tee and into the fitting in the water pump housing.
By drilling through the rib inside the water jacket you allow the cooler water to flow to the top and the bottom of the spark plug hole.
I am building an enduro motor for my Miata and am going to do the same thing but with steel braided lines. I will take detailed photos when I get time to work on that project.
I would never even think about drilling and tapping the housing. It kinda seems like a good idea, i wonder how many people has done this nad what the results are. i would think nothing but good results
11-16-09, 10:12 PM
#165
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Hey afgmoto1978, I see your just across the river from me. We should hook up some time.
Is there a reason you don't do this mod to the front rotor housing? I realize the rear housing is typically hotter than the front but why not do both housings?
Is there a reason you don't do this mod to the front rotor housing? I realize the rear housing is typically hotter than the front but why not do both housings?
11-17-09, 07:42 AM
#166
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i'd go out on a limb and propose two reasons, though i may be way off base.
1. the Rx-8's stock ignition coils are utter CRAP! a healthy toddler could blow them out after a few miles of use. almost anything that can plug in and work with the stock ignition system would be an upgrade.
2. many guys run amplifiers on Rx-7s whereas i don't see much over at the Rx-8 board (granted, i bypass many of the turbo build threads because i just can't stand the nonsense over there). add that to the fact that i believe the factory coils on the Rx-7s were superior to begin with, i don't see why an Rx-7 owner would need to source GM ignition hardware. i have seen a few using other coils, but they were very rare cases of owners at their wit's end trying to solve a specific problem.
1. the Rx-8's stock ignition coils are utter CRAP! a healthy toddler could blow them out after a few miles of use. almost anything that can plug in and work with the stock ignition system would be an upgrade.
2. many guys run amplifiers on Rx-7s whereas i don't see much over at the Rx-8 board (granted, i bypass many of the turbo build threads because i just can't stand the nonsense over there). add that to the fact that i believe the factory coils on the Rx-7s were superior to begin with, i don't see why an Rx-7 owner would need to source GM ignition hardware. i have seen a few using other coils, but they were very rare cases of owners at their wit's end trying to solve a specific problem.
Yeah the rx8 coils are crap...and everyone talks that the gm coils are the greatest things ever. They do spark rather hot and do..do a good job..but should I have a amplifier???
and if the rx7 coils are that great why would they change them???
11-17-09, 12:09 PM
#167
For the next motor I will be a bit more aggressive on the porting among other things to improve oil flow and coolant flow. Crossing my fingers the rear rotor housing isn't damaged. It's a real pain to do the rear external coolant line mod.
11-19-09, 07:18 AM
#168
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[QUOTE=afgmoto1978;9627956]Yeah, for sure, my dad lives up in Sasquamuchacallit, so I go up there every once in awhile.
Not sure if your thinking I live in Vancouver B.C but I don't. I live in Vancouver, WA. literally just across the river from you if your in Portland, OR.
Not sure if your thinking I live in Vancouver B.C but I don't. I live in Vancouver, WA. literally just across the river from you if your in Portland, OR.
11-19-09, 07:43 AM
#169
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I'm going to make an oil mod on the rear stationary gear on the motor I am building now that will improve oil flow to the rear main bearing.
If you have time some evening you should come by my shop. I'm in the Salmon Creek area.
01-13-10, 04:05 PM
#171
Sorry it took so long to post this.
After opening the motor I'm even more upset.
Very minimal wear over 5K hard miles. No cracking at the spark plug bosses, noticable apex seal skip though.
New motor has used parts in it to keep cost down and turn around time minimal. Will be refleshing the motor later in the year when time and funds become available.
Reference on the previous engine build - https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/latest-experiment%85failure-751977/page8/
After opening the motor I'm even more upset.
Very minimal wear over 5K hard miles. No cracking at the spark plug bosses, noticable apex seal skip though. New motor has used parts in it to keep cost down and turn around time minimal. Will be refleshing the motor later in the year when time and funds become available.
Reference on the previous engine build - https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/latest-experiment%85failure-751977/page8/
01-15-10, 10:22 AM
#173
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Thread Starter
Adam,
the rear housing looks good around the plugs after you put the scotchbrite to it. Your mod seems to have done its job there.
Were you running the rubber plugs in the corner seals?
Were you premixing? The exhaust sleeve is clean but the port itself has really collected a lot of carbon. I wonder if the 2 stroke oil only OMP mod would help?
How much chamfer did you use on the exhaust port? The top seems to be feeling the apex seal as it passes.
Barry
the rear housing looks good around the plugs after you put the scotchbrite to it. Your mod seems to have done its job there.
Were you running the rubber plugs in the corner seals?
Were you premixing? The exhaust sleeve is clean but the port itself has really collected a lot of carbon. I wonder if the 2 stroke oil only OMP mod would help?
How much chamfer did you use on the exhaust port? The top seems to be feeling the apex seal as it passes.
Barry
Sorry it took so long to post this.
After opening the motor I'm even more upset. Very minimal wear over 5K hard miles. No cracking at the spark plug bosses, noticable apex seal skip though.
New motor has used parts in it to keep cost down and turn around time minimal. Will be refleshing the motor later in the year when time and funds become available.
Reference on the previous engine build - https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=751977&page=8
After opening the motor I'm even more upset.
Very minimal wear over 5K hard miles. No cracking at the spark plug bosses, noticable apex seal skip though. New motor has used parts in it to keep cost down and turn around time minimal. Will be refleshing the motor later in the year when time and funds become available.
Reference on the previous engine build - https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=751977&page=8
01-15-10, 10:43 AM
#174
Adam,
the rear housing looks good around the plugs after you put the scotchbrite to it. Your mod seems to have done its job there.
Were you running the rubber plugs in the corner seals?
Were you premixing? The exhaust sleeve is clean but the port itself has really collected a lot of carbon. I wonder if the 2 stroke oil only OMP mod would help?
How much chamfer did you use on the exhaust port? The top seems to be feeling the apex seal as it passes.
Barry
the rear housing looks good around the plugs after you put the scotchbrite to it. Your mod seems to have done its job there.
Were you running the rubber plugs in the corner seals?
Were you premixing? The exhaust sleeve is clean but the port itself has really collected a lot of carbon. I wonder if the 2 stroke oil only OMP mod would help?
How much chamfer did you use on the exhaust port? The top seems to be feeling the apex seal as it passes.
Barry
I was running rubber plugs at the corner seals. Noticed a good amount of carbon build at the corners on the side faces of the rotors. 0.004" clearances all around.
I am premixing as well as oil omp injection. I think it would, but will have to do something custom instead of the aviation premix adaptor, no room. May mod the front cover when I refresh the motor later this year.
I left the chamfer at the top stock so it may have been just carbon build up. Nothing else stood out.
01-16-10, 07:01 AM
#175
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Thread Starter
Adam there is a thread on making a metalgasket-block off plate and threading the pump itself so no extra room is needed. The 2 stk oil would run cleaner.
I will see if I can find it. Trout2 sent it to me but I deleted it. He wants to use your breather tank as the 2 stk oil tank.
Barry
I will see if I can find it. Trout2 sent it to me but I deleted it. He wants to use your breather tank as the 2 stk oil tank.
Barry
Yeah for sure, the combination of supporting cooling system and engine mods seems to be making a real difference.
I was running rubber plugs at the corner seals. Noticed a good amount of carbon build at the corners on the side faces of the rotors. 0.004" clearances all around.
I am premixing as well as oil omp injection. I think it would, but will have to do something custom instead of the aviation premix adaptor, no room. May mod the front cover when I refresh the motor later this year.
I left the chamfer at the top stock so it may have been just carbon build up. Nothing else stood out.
I was running rubber plugs at the corner seals. Noticed a good amount of carbon build at the corners on the side faces of the rotors. 0.004" clearances all around.
I am premixing as well as oil omp injection. I think it would, but will have to do something custom instead of the aviation premix adaptor, no room. May mod the front cover when I refresh the motor later this year.
I left the chamfer at the top stock so it may have been just carbon build up. Nothing else stood out.