KillerRx4

Not in my case

I will have to measure apex seal to groove clearance but that is not the cause of my rotors being trashed. Dented rear is obviously written off & the side seal in the front destroyed its groove.

Rotor housings although look heavily worn in the pics are barely noticable to the touch ( the less worn of the two which i havent had a chance to post a pic of I cant feel the wear at all). I am reusing these rotor housings.

My OEM 3mm apex seals & solid corners & all the other bits needed arrived yesterday, Should have it built in a week or so


Max, Are you saying RA 3mm seals or OEM 3mm wear as heavily as RA 2mm? I was under the impression RA supplied 3mm were OEM....?

Also anybody know who is the manufacturer of RA supplied side & corner seals?

t-von

iTrader: (8)

The only thing silly about this debate is how emotionally involved you have gotten because we don't see eye to eye. Hey I can roll my eyes too.

I'm willing to give this a rest so we can sit back and wait for future results from these seals on some different applications.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Thats completely awesome that you are able to re-use the housings after that kind of damage. Did you catch that Max?

Hmm so the housings look worn but they don't feel worn? So basically what you have left it a housing with small wear grooves that in any case will add to the oil film protection on the surface? It would also appear that the visual wear is taking place during break-in but the surface is smoothing out over time while still leaving the initial wear? Think of it as color sanding your car with 100 grit paper and then going to the 1000 grit. Once the seals heat cycle and fully break in, they may not cause any additional damage. I'm not speaking of facts just speculating. The loss of compression in other peoples cases could be mainly attributed to seal warpage and not housing wear.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Here is a quote from the other thread with the poll:



That's an awful lot of compression for a product that's apparently destroying housings. This same poster also feels that the RA seals may need to run rich and not lean to survive.

scathcart

Colour sanding should not strip the paint off of the car.

You saw the pictures from one of my engines. Complete chunks of chrome removed.

Same thing happened to a nitrous engine that had maybe 2000 miles of non break-in driving on brand new housings.

How can you possibly ignore this?

t-von

iTrader: (8)

My example about the color sanding was to give an idea of what may be happening. The seals may only be rough on the housings at first (100 grit) till broken in, then things start to smooth out(1000 grit). KillerRx4 clearly stated that the housings were still smooth. This fact can't be ignored. Looks bad and feels bad are too different things. As far as chrome and chunks being removed, there has to be a reason this happened and a reason it didn't happen on a different engine.

There is no way I will fault the seals in this kind of situation were they weren't properly broken in. You may be able to do this with the stockers but maybe not with these. These seals are much harder than stock, therefore they have a more lengthy break in process. RA clearly stated that 5k would be need on used housing. Can't remember how long on new housings?


I'm not ignoring anything. I still want to see other results from the later batches and other cars. Every car runs and is tuned differently. Some cars run more pre-mix than others. Some cars are tuned more lean than others. All of these things will make a difference. At least in the other thread I can ask each individual owner the specifics about their set-up. There is obviously a certain combination needed to make things work. The housing on the last page look bad. Key word is looks bad. The surface is still smooth and he's re-using them. That can't be ignored. If we're going take the time to R&D we need to get all the facts.

On a side note would you be quick to jump on the durability of carbon seals if someone used them in a highly boost application? No because we all know what those seals are used for. They have a specific use. I still think the same for the RA seals. They have a specific use.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

You know after sleeping on this, I'm really starting to think that this is what causes the wear. Has anyone taken a really close look at the RA seals in their brand new state? Do they have a rough texture on the seals face from the cutting process? I mentioned earlier that the engine in my 91 Vert was blown. I'm getting ready to rebuild it with RA seals.

I'm going to take pictures of both housings before assembly. I will also take pics of the seals themselves. What I'm going to do is install the RA seals in their raw state in the front housing and then polish the other seal faces (to make sure the faces are perfectly smooth) and install them in the rear. My theory is the smooth surface of the seals face will cause less damage to the housing during break-in. I will do a compression check of the engine at 5k and them at 10k. At that point I will disassemble the engine to do an inspection and see it here are any differences front and rear. This engine will also run with the stock omp and premix. Stay tuned.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

I've seen 2 batches of the RA seals and they didn't "appear" rough in any way.

dubulup

dayem dood, you are going to build, break in, tune, run, remove and then tear down an engine to show us how polished seals show less wear on the housings?!?!

I like the idea, but wouldn't ever consider it...unless someone else was funding the test.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Well when I set my mind to so something I have to do it. The only thing I would be out of is a gasket kit and my time. I still got other vehicles to drive so it's not a problem. In the end if everything turns out fine it would better help everyone else in the use of this product because in my own crazy way, I still think these seals can benefit our engines. I'm tired of seeing threads about how our engines blow up so easily on other forums. In the end, I feel we rotorheads should help carry the load in R&D for these engines. Personally I'm willing to do whatever it takes to further help in the R&D of these engines because I strongly believe in them. We can't just solely rely on Mazda to do **** for us. They are only one company.

cmartinp28

t-von your efforts are truely appreciated in this matter.


i have RA seals in my car and have had an extended breakin period of about 7000 miles on my car due to the fact that my car has had problems when tuners from out of state came around to make horsepower with the car. actually at 700miles we tried to tune, and boosted a few times until we found out that the wastegate wasnt openning, so i had to wait another 4000 miles til the next time i boosted for tuning, and at this time i had a fuel delivery problem. 2000miles later (last week) steve kan came again to tune the car and boost was limitted to 11-14 psi.... im still having other fuel delivery problems so the car was limitted to maybe 10 runs where it saw boost of 11-14psi (mostly around 10).

for my breakin, i drove the car as if my mother was driving. in the first 500 miles the car didnt see rpm's of more than 3000rpm. and the rest of the way was no boost and nothing over 4000rpm for the most part. i tried hard to keep the egt temps below 650C although there were times when they would increase to 700C on the highway when cruising at a high speed.

with that said, i am hoping that the extended breakin helped preserve my brand new (very expensive) rotor housings. i am currently in the process of assembling a digital compression tester so i can get the most accurate and comparable readings. i will try to get the compression for the motor as soon as i get this tester finished and report back every 1000-1500 miles.


martin

scathcart

22xx mile break-in is not enough? Compression peaked at 1100 miles. Why keep breaking in an engine that had peaked its compression 1000 miles ago?
The engine, in total, lasted 4500 some-thing miles. It had around 2000 miles of non break-in driving. It did not have NO BREAK-IN.

break-in miles + non break in miles= total engine lengevity.

I have several engines missing chrome. These TWO engines are not isolated.

Someday, when you have actually done some experimentation for yourself, built engines with these seals, and taken them apart again, you will be able to psot from experience. Until then, your opinion is worthless, because you don't speak from any worthwhile knowledge. I've never had open-heart surgery, so how can I tell you what its like?

I can name very few people who have taken apart an RA engine and were happy with how their rotor/rotor housing spec'd out.

cmartinp28

ouch..... i guess my motor is damned

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I have experience of engines missing chrome as well. Guess what with stock seals. I wont hesitate to show you pics either. An just FYI the higher mileage engine had far less compared to the lower mileage one.



An someday you so called experience engine builders will have enough since to try and have an open mind and not solely rely on your own experience and bash those who you "think" doesn't have any. I'm a positive thinker and always try to look for the best in everything. My knowledge may not mean anything to you but guess what, your not the only person on this forum are ya? Yes I don't have any personal experience with these seals. That still doesn't change my belief in them. I do the things called research to gain knowledge. Then I apply what I know and gain more experience through trial and error. It's easier this way because you have a better starting point. Regardless of how many engines you have built with those seals doesn't mean that you know any and everything that happened to those engines once they left your shop. You two are relying on second hand information.

All I know is some engines with these seals don't live long and some engines are working great with them. There has to be a reason for this and I will do my best to figure it out. These varying differences keeps my hopes high.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Don't waist your time stressing over this.

cmartinp28

dont worry im not.... its in the motor now, and its going to stay there til i blow that ****** up.

i will still however give periodic updates on my compression since i know my motor is broken in pretty much as Rotary Aviation recommended it.

Maxthe7man

I dont know why some of us are putting so much effort in trying to save you from yourself...Its like talking to a post...I guess because we know what the outcome will be...
Buy those seals, run them, when you are rebuilding 3 months later, dont come crying to the forum how your rebuilt is all ballsed up...You've been told more than once....
Mazda seals once again are not the problem ,

TUNING IS

And these seals are not a cure for poor tuning..

Maxthe7man

Lets see here, here is a guy that has never even built a motor with these seals, arguing how good they are and how they have their place, using "good" data from people who have not yet torn down thier motors to see what happens to them, to dismiss people who have built numerous motors with these seals and torn down motors that have run with them for some time till they failed due to the seals themselves...
T-von you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, till you have built any motors with them and torn them down, do the forum a favour and quit posting about seals that you have never used.. Buy a set, build a motor then tear it down yourself, then tell the forum whether you still believe or not..

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Did I ever once say that these seals were the cure for poor tuning? I'm sure KillerRx4's engine was tuned great but guess what, great tuning didn't save his engine now did it? Once again ( since you odviously don't get it) tuning isn't going to prevent something else from going wrong.

Oh yea, I'm surprised that you aren't bitching at KillerRx4 for re-using those so called destroyed housings? According to you those housing were fucked. Why because the Master said so. Master why don't you spend some time trying to convince him those housings are fucked? Also yourself and Scathcart can let me know the last time you saw an engine with stock seals have re-uasble housings after all that kind of detonation. I'm waiting!

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Ahh I don't need personal experience to disprove your negative beliefs. This quote hear proves my point:


You never commented on how good this guys compression was after 12k with the RA seals. You have the amazing ability to ignore specific info.

All BS aside why don't you comment to KillerRx4 about him re-using those so called un-usable housings? Those Ra seals sure did a number on them didn't they?

t-von

iTrader: (8)

See this is what I'm talking about. Some housings spec'd out and some didn't. There is a reason for this. Is it really that big of a deal for me to try and help figure out the right formula?

The Spyder

iTrader: (8)

I tore down a motor after 3k with RA seals.
It had used perfect condition low miliage housings, still milky. Well after 3k, the only noticible wear was that caused by the bearing failure. The front housing looked perfect, seals looked great, and even the springs they provided spec'd out. The rear housing had about 5-6 little bumpes right before the exhaust port on the bottom of the housing. Just barely able to be felt draging your nail over them. I have no clue what caused this, but I replaced the housing. Ill let you guys know in 10k when I tear it down again .

Maxthe7man

I wouldnt reuse Killer rx-4's housings, thats his choice...Just becuase he is choosing to use them doesnt mean they are good..
Like I said before, even with the first batch of RA seals, the motor would compression test good while it was cold, Pay more attentio please..The difference between you and I is I post from experience, you post from nothing but imaginary hope for magic bullets and tooth fairies...

scathcart

It happens. I've seen a couple of low-km S5 stock motors (w 3piece seals) taken apart with mild denting of the rotor, yet intact apex seals. I have also taken apart an engine with OEM 2-piece apex seals and a rear crocked dowel landing. Your experience with engine building, tuning, and dissassembly is so limited that you can only make posts from regurgitated information. Plain and simple: Why post if you don't know?

People don't take their engine apart until it doesn't run. An engine with dented rotors will still run. They will keep detonating on it until they break an apex seal, and then claim the apex seal MUST have went first.

Has Killer RX-4 spec'd out the wear on his chromium? (rotor to rotor housing clearance). All he said was that he could barely feel the grooving on his fingernail.

When was the last time you took apart an engine with OEM seals that had completely stripped chrome patches in 4500 miles? When was the last time you took apart an engine wth OEM seals that had stripped chrome patches within 65,000 miles?

Don't post if you've got no experience.

moehler

iTrader: (12)

Although experience is an obvious advantage when it comes to knowledge about these seals, the fact still remains that people are having success with them. Just because someone has not used these seals before, it doesn't mean that they cannot gain a fairly good amount information from what they read. The fact remains that your guys 'experience' does not explain why some engines are going strong with these seals, and their housings are not crap.

Why are you shooting down somene who is just trying to deduce if these seals are truely crap? The fact is that the seals have not been around long enough to gain true statistical success/failure numbers on higher mileage engines.