moehler

iTrader: (12)

Thanks! keep us updated.

GUITARJUNKIE28

i remember when this thread was a discussion...

no seal-related failures in any of the motors i've built yet. (thank god)
we'll see how they go over time.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Very well said thx!

To add if experience was so important then I guess I'm not suppose to believe that Neal Armstrong actually stepped foot on the Moon because I wasn't there to witness it.

Maxthe7man

Suit yourselves....
The facts are most people who think they havent had a problem with warping. housing and rotor wear have yet to tear down those motors...
I was lead to believe when I bought these seals they were suitable for a high output turbo application, obvously they are not, and niether are the springs. They cant take the heat a stock seal can, neither can the springs for any prolonged period of running time..I didnt buy them because I am price sensitive...I was once of the opinion that the seal was the weak part of the motor, and if you could solve that, it would put you a step ahead... But that is wrong, the seal is just the first fuse in a motor.. Say what you like, I have proven that, and I would put my tuning and assembly skills against anyone in this thread and forum..
Now if you were building a near stock or low output turbo motor, what is the point in using a supposedly detonation proof seal at the expense of premature internal engine wear, going back to T-vons original argument for using them, if your application has very little chance of operating under harsh enough circumstances to warrant a using a seal with those trade offs..
My problem with the commentary in this thread, is, as per usual, is there is no common sense being used in solving the problems commonly seen in our cars..
And when no common sense is being used, the problems never got solved, and everyone goes down the road the of the cure for the symptom not for the disease, spending useless dollar after use dollar...
If those seal worked as said and prevented any problems, they would now be in all my motors...

GUITARJUNKIE28

max, how many motors have you built with the RA seals, and have you tried using them with the stock springs?

cmartinp28

have any of you guys used new housings with the rotary aviation springs?

Maxthe7man

I am on round 2 with the RA seals, I switched back to oem mazdas on the rest of the motors, as its fine to tear down your own motor every 10k km's but when its somebody elses, they tend to get a little pissed... I put the last motor together before the suggestion of using stock springs came out.. Needless to say, I dont think thats gonna solve anything, the springs arent the problem I have seen post mortem, its the warping of the seal and the wear, but on the subject of springs, the RA springs I received didnt even meet stock min specs for height prior to install, I had to re arc them to spec right out of the package..
Another thing that is still bugging me about all these aftermarket seals, is that not to many of them publish any specs for their fitment, in moderate or performance use, the material is not the same as stock so the fitment specs are not going to the same as stock.. I have a book with alot of the internal engineering done on rotary seals by mazda, they changed clearances and specs with every material, and even with size of apex seal. If you go buy a set of sealed power moly rings, it gives you clearance and end gaps outside of the stock measurements, because they know the mechanical and physical properties are different.. That there is no issued tolerances makes me wonder exactly who is doing the r&D on these seals, the seller or the customer.. Is it up to us to scrub out rotors and housings, if thats the problem, why havent they issued some seal specs with the product, like suggested EGT, suggested Premix amount, maximum boost levels, side and end clearances, if they know it, then issue it...
If it said you need x-amount of this and that, and I fell outside of those tolerance, yes then my setup is at fault, but I run my car on known acceptable limits for the stock seals which can handle the conditions they are subjected to..

Maxthe7man

The difference is you can accept the pictures of him on the moon, but can accept the picture of the seal damage..
Ignorance and beleif is still no match for experience...

t-von

iTrader: (8)

What seal damage are you talking about? KillerRx4 claimed those housings are re-usable. Again looks bad and feels bad are two different things. Remember, you are the one that jumped the gun claiming that his housings were fucked. He said otherwise and it's his damn engine. You don't know how things specs out. You based your opinion solely on the pics. However if you go back and pay attention to some of my post, I clearly said that these seals maybe scoring the housings at first (100 grit) and maybe things smooth out once broken in. If the seals were doing that much damage the surface wouldn't be smooth after the teardown.

Maxthe7man

Ok, now this is getting down into semantics over pictures, and is pretty much pointless, you have zero experience with any of the facts and parts in this entire thread, so all you can argue about is entirely 3rd hand at best...
How about this, put your money where your mouth is, buy a set of RA seals, and brand new housings/rotors build your motor, run it for 10k and pull it apart and post your results, for a fair assesment of the results...its fine to give people advice when its not your car, how about you put your "beliefs" to the test...
I have a feeling if it was your time invested pulling and rebuilding motors just because of seal pissues, your so called "beliefs" and "opinions" would be alot different...

GUITARJUNKIE28

max, do you think it's possible your seal warpage might have been caused by tuning?

not exactly poor tuning, but maybe the RA seals don't like higher egt's. you like running them resonably high, correct?

so if you keep the egt's in the 700-750 range--even if you feel it's too low, i wonder if that might be the deciding factor on them. maybe, maybe not.

Maxthe7man

700-750 for an egt preturbo is not even in the cards man...
I hit those once, and my wideband was burried. Probably in the 8.5:1- 9:1 area, if the seals need those temps they have no home in a rotary...

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Once again the 1st batch seals you had had most of the problems. If they were unsuitable for high output turbo applications, why is kabooski putting down 500+ rwhp? He has the later batch seals. Currently it was discovered that the RA springs where not heat treated like the stock seals causing them to flatten. For all we know their springs may be the true cause of the majority of the low compression. RA now claims that their seal springs are only acceptable in NA and stock boost levels. Personally I feel for you that you had to go through the bad experiences with the seals in the beginning. That doesn't mean that things haven't improved since then.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Damn I guess you missed that part of my past post didn't you where I was actually going to do this. Your not paying attention for ****.

Maxthe7man

Really... kabooski I dont think drives his car as much as I do either.. I am at 14k on the second batch, and the hot start compression is rearing its ugly head again.... The way the car starts cold and hot would most likely not be the springs, once they are flat, they are flat..
All that being said, with the inconsistencies of the machining from seal to seal, what about the inconsitencies from production batch to batch.. I dont have one seal that measures the same as an another..

Maxthe7man

quit posting dribble and start building....going to and having done are pretty far apart...

t-von

iTrader: (8)

And you need to pay more attention to the post. Why ask me to do something I already said I was going to do. I need to get everything to together and doing the job right. I don't build engines for a living as you may do. I have yet to full access the damage in my vert.

Maxthe7man

Does that include mazda seals...
Pm at 10k, hell I'll even come down and pull it apart...

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Actually I'm going to start a whole new thread about the progress. No Pm's needed.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Since you missed this post before here is my plan.

Maxthe7man

All I can add to that, is you compression test it at different temps, thats where the problems appear to show up the most..

GUITARJUNKIE28

who said pre-turbo?

yodaddy

you guys better watch it or none of us will be invited to Max' birhtday party.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Will do.

full-cruise

iTrader: (5)

has anybody tried useing rotary performance seals? how do they hold up in comparison?
they have 2mm race spring and 2mm street springs. theres no info on there site about them other then that so i thought i would ask you guys.