"RA SuperSeal" ?
03-09-06, 09:26 PM
#1
"RA SuperSeal" ?
I just inquired about these new seals they have developed and this is the reply I got from Laura:
Hmm in the past RA seals have warped in extreme lean conditions. Rumor has it these seals are nitrided. It will be really interesting to see how these work out. Now I wish I would have waited and gotten these to test out because I'm actually tearing down my engine at 10k anyways.
We have developed a new "RA SuperSeal" which has been in use in a number of test cars for the past few months. We plan to add it to the web site for general sale in about 6 weeks. The seals are of the same basic material as the RA seals but they go through another treatment process (hence the black color). This additional treatment allows the seals to be even more resistant to extremely high heat such as can be found in high boost (over 35 psi) turbo cars and cars using nitrous. We have the RA seals in many nitrous and high boost cars but we wanted to develop a seal really geared towards the high performance racing community as many of or customers fall into that category already. I am not sure about the price yet but I expect it to me under $300 per set for a two rotor 13B engine.
Hmm in the past RA seals have warped in extreme lean conditions. Rumor has it these seals are nitrided. It will be really interesting to see how these work out. Now I wish I would have waited and gotten these to test out because I'm actually tearing down my engine at 10k anyways.
04-24-06, 07:15 PM
#2
Passenger
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I searched first but this thread did not come up, maybe because i searched for "RA super seals" instead of "RA superseals" and also i was looking from one week or newer, t-von: thanks for the link, oh well here is my questions:
MOVED FROM ANOTHER THREAD:
Well i was online and was about to buy some rotary aviation (RA) apex seals and i came across their new announcement:
"4/21/2006: NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT - RA Super Seals!"
Here is the link:
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/ra_super_seals.htm
i was wondering about their new secondary treatment to their classic seals that make them a "distinctive black color"
does anybody know what treatment would change the color to black and make the seals more durable to high heat,... or more importantly what would it do to the seals and or what it would do to the rotor housings short and long terms, for example, if it hardened the seals would they scratch or wear the housings more than the classic RA seals or would the seals be more brittle/softer .... ect....
anybody have any insight on treatment processes?
Jeremy
MOVED FROM ANOTHER THREAD:
Well i was online and was about to buy some rotary aviation (RA) apex seals and i came across their new announcement:
"4/21/2006: NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT - RA Super Seals!"
Here is the link:
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/ra_super_seals.htm
i was wondering about their new secondary treatment to their classic seals that make them a "distinctive black color"
does anybody know what treatment would change the color to black and make the seals more durable to high heat,... or more importantly what would it do to the seals and or what it would do to the rotor housings short and long terms, for example, if it hardened the seals would they scratch or wear the housings more than the classic RA seals or would the seals be more brittle/softer .... ect....
anybody have any insight on treatment processes?
Jeremy
04-25-06, 08:43 PM
#4
Red Pill Dealer
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Titanium Nitride (TiN) is gold and is a coating. Nitrideing is a treatment that actually soaks into the crystallin structure of feritic metals. It's depth can be controlled from as little as .0002" to ..010" commonly. Greater depths are availlable be the cost goes up.
04-26-06, 11:12 PM
#5
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Hmm....RA does not mention if these new super seals will do more rotor housing wear or not over their regular seals. I'm interested to know what they will say but I'll probably email them when I'm about to buy some new seals for my rebuild.
04-27-06, 02:11 AM
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If it is black in colour it is probably a WC-C or DLC coating, if it is one of these coatings they tend to give a lower 'SYSTEM' wear than feric seals, however there are so many factors involed in the wear system (type of oil being very significant) that it is really impossible to say how they will behave in each application.
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04-27-06, 06:22 PM
#9
Rotary Enthusiast
GOT a set of RA seals in my 89, been running perfect 10,000 miles, checked compression 120 psi all surface chambers, less than 5 psi variation, seems OK to me!! Im buying some more got another project coming up.
04-27-06, 06:34 PM
#11
Rotary Enthusiast
MAZGTR,, people who do not have enough money to do IT! right! spend time BASHING. something I have observed, most 1st gen guys spend the least amount of money to try to go fast!! 2nd gen guys try to make up the money by trying crappy parts still dont go fast,so bash,,, 3rd gen guys seem to have more to spend and in the end most do go fast! any logic will tell you a 2nd gen can go as fast as a 3rd you just have to spend the money for good parts. YEAH!! I know there is a weight difference, w2hat 125lbs. nothing good driving cant makeup!
06-21-06, 11:21 PM
#14
Rotary Enthusiast
I just rebuilt my daily driver which blew an atkins seal on one of the corners (again). Installed RA Super Seals and it started right off the bat... Let's see what happens in the long run...
06-21-06, 11:31 PM
#15
Originally Posted by ronbros3
GOT a set of RA seals in my 89, been running perfect 10,000 miles, checked compression 120 psi all surface chambers, less than 5 psi variation, seems OK to me!! Im buying some more got another project coming up.
That's nice. I still have about 6k to go before I break down my engine to see if these seals really wear the housings (like some people claim). I have some questions for you. Did you rebuild yourself? If so what did you set your side seal to corner seal clearence too? New or used housings? Did you reuse the factory springs or go with the RA versions? Also are you turbo or NA?
07-01-06, 10:48 AM
#16
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We use DLC coated stuff at the shop I'm at now and I tell you what, that stuff is like black gold. It will highly reduce friction between any surface it is mated with and after long term EXTREME abuse (800+ hp at 8,000+ rpm) parts come out of the engine showing almost no wear at all.
DLC will have a deep gloss black appearance to them and if that is what they coat them with I would buy them in a heart beat. The technology sounds very similar to stuff being used in NASCAR Cup engines and the fact that they design stuff for Aircraft use has to say something.
I will be buying a set probably within a year for a build I plan on doing. I have access to several hundred thousands of dollars worth of equipment to analyse them so when I get them they will be very highly scrutinized (sp?) and I will post results. I look forward to buying them.
My only question is should I go with 2mm or 3mm, I've heard about equal pros and cons of both.
DLC will have a deep gloss black appearance to them and if that is what they coat them with I would buy them in a heart beat. The technology sounds very similar to stuff being used in NASCAR Cup engines and the fact that they design stuff for Aircraft use has to say something.
I will be buying a set probably within a year for a build I plan on doing. I have access to several hundred thousands of dollars worth of equipment to analyse them so when I get them they will be very highly scrutinized (sp?) and I will post results. I look forward to buying them.
My only question is should I go with 2mm or 3mm, I've heard about equal pros and cons of both.
07-01-06, 10:52 AM
#17
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If somebody had a spare piece lying around I could analyse it, just tell me if it needs to stay functional or not since I can do non-destructive testing or destructive testing, although I think the only thing I can do that would harm one is hardness check it, which would leave little dimples all over the place.
07-01-06, 12:54 PM
#18
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quote from Laura @ Rotary Avaition:
Hi Jeremy - you are on the first run order fill list. As soon as I get in the first batch your order will ship.
The Super Seals are of the same material as the Classic seals. The difference is that they are nitrite coated after they are cut. It is my understanding that Mazda also nitrite coats some of the engine internals at the factory, so we don't believe there will be any adverse impact on the housings. We have had the seals in test cars driven daily for over 1 year. Of course, with anything new there is always a slight risk but we try to use good development and test techniques before releasing the product.
Sincerely,
Laura
Hi Jeremy - you are on the first run order fill list. As soon as I get in the first batch your order will ship.
The Super Seals are of the same material as the Classic seals. The difference is that they are nitrite coated after they are cut. It is my understanding that Mazda also nitrite coats some of the engine internals at the factory, so we don't believe there will be any adverse impact on the housings. We have had the seals in test cars driven daily for over 1 year. Of course, with anything new there is always a slight risk but we try to use good development and test techniques before releasing the product.
Sincerely,
Laura
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07-01-06, 01:46 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by Kyrasis6
If somebody had a spare piece lying around I could analyse it, just tell me if it needs to stay functional or not since I can do non-destructive testing or destructive testing, although I think the only thing I can do that would harm one is hardness check it, which would leave little dimples all over the place.
damn, wish you would have said that a few weeks ago. i've got them in the (now impounded but soon to be released) fd engine, and a set in the cosmo that's going in an rx8.
initial thoughts on the seals is they're fine. engine fired right up with no throttle and continues to do so (8.5 compression rotors). if i blow it up, or decide to take it apart, i'll get pics of stuff.
07-01-06, 05:33 PM
#22
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Are you saying there is a coating for apex seals that, eventually, will not wear through? How thick is this coating? Is it a coating or surface treatment?
07-02-06, 09:04 PM
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I was mainly pointing out the DLC for identification purposes, The info RotorMotor2 left obviously means they arn't DLC coated.
I don't think DLC would be a good thing to have on the part of the apex seal that slides along the housing because it would make it estremely hard for the seal to break in. I think it would be very beneficial to the part of the seal that is in contact with the slot in the rotor.
DLC (Diamond Like Coatings for those who don't know) is a coating consisting of graphite applied usually by physical vapor deposition. The process involves cleaning the part and placing it in a chamber under vacuum or filled with inert gas like argon. Using an inert gas requires less sophisticated equipment but applying the coating under a vacuum provides a better coating. Once the part is in the chamber and ready to have the coating applied a static charge is applied to the part and vapor similar to powder coating. Because of the properties of graphite it must be applied usually in 3 layers each being about 1 micron thick I believe (it might be 10 microns). Either way the final product by all practicle means is the same size. The first layer is a soft layer designed to bond to the part and absorb impact. The second layer is designed to bond to the other two layers and provide support for the third layer. It is harder then the first layer but still softer then the third layer. The third layer is the part exposed to mechanical friction and is extremly smooth and hard. It requires the layers underneath to absorb impact and vibration to keep it from basically shattering and flaking off the part. Because it is so hard and smooth it resists wear extremely well and when used on one friction surface can reduce the coefficient of friction down to .5. When used on both surfaces it can half this down to .25. As far as I know the coating can only handle temperatures as high as 500 deg F so it cannot be exposed to open combustion. I have seen it used on pistons before in areas very close to combustion so it may or may not be usable on the apex seals or the groves in the rotors.
Here are some links:
http://www.metatechnica.com/DLC.html
http://www.swri.org/9what/releases/1996/dlc.htm
Note that because of its application in the racing industry, aerospace, and military the current available technology and its abilities may be much better then the information that I posted.
I don't think DLC would be a good thing to have on the part of the apex seal that slides along the housing because it would make it estremely hard for the seal to break in. I think it would be very beneficial to the part of the seal that is in contact with the slot in the rotor.
DLC (Diamond Like Coatings for those who don't know) is a coating consisting of graphite applied usually by physical vapor deposition. The process involves cleaning the part and placing it in a chamber under vacuum or filled with inert gas like argon. Using an inert gas requires less sophisticated equipment but applying the coating under a vacuum provides a better coating. Once the part is in the chamber and ready to have the coating applied a static charge is applied to the part and vapor similar to powder coating. Because of the properties of graphite it must be applied usually in 3 layers each being about 1 micron thick I believe (it might be 10 microns). Either way the final product by all practicle means is the same size. The first layer is a soft layer designed to bond to the part and absorb impact. The second layer is designed to bond to the other two layers and provide support for the third layer. It is harder then the first layer but still softer then the third layer. The third layer is the part exposed to mechanical friction and is extremly smooth and hard. It requires the layers underneath to absorb impact and vibration to keep it from basically shattering and flaking off the part. Because it is so hard and smooth it resists wear extremely well and when used on one friction surface can reduce the coefficient of friction down to .5. When used on both surfaces it can half this down to .25. As far as I know the coating can only handle temperatures as high as 500 deg F so it cannot be exposed to open combustion. I have seen it used on pistons before in areas very close to combustion so it may or may not be usable on the apex seals or the groves in the rotors.
Here are some links:
http://www.metatechnica.com/DLC.html
http://www.swri.org/9what/releases/1996/dlc.htm
Note that because of its application in the racing industry, aerospace, and military the current available technology and its abilities may be much better then the information that I posted.
07-02-06, 10:55 PM
#25
Red Pill Dealer
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Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
how often do you see apex seals wear out?
i've pulled apart a couple motors with 150K+, and one with 215k and the apex seals weren't worn out yet.
i've pulled apart a couple motors with 150K+, and one with 215k and the apex seals weren't worn out yet.