"RA SuperSeal" ?
07-02-06, 11:24 PM
#26
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TonyD89: the reason Rotary Avaition (RA) put the Nitrate coating on the seals was because under high heat severl times or extended periods the seals would warp slightly length wise and give signs of lost compression...... the coating was not intended to strengthen the friction points of the seal but to help resist heat and strengthen the sides of the seal to reduce or eliminate warpage, not as a friction changer.......
07-03-06, 12:49 AM
#27
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Yes, again I say I mainly mentioned the DLC to help identify the coating on the RA seals since at the time nobody knew for sure what it was and somebody asked what it was so I gave them a quick low down. As for DLC lasting shortly it has been long proven to be an extremly long lasting coating. If it wasn't something that was extremely durable and long lasting I'm sure they wouldn't be using it on hip replacements and jet turbines running at supersonic speeds don't you think?
The engines (piston engines) we use DLC coatings in at work put more stress and wear on the parts then a high performance street engine would after atleast 200k miles. We test the same parts without DLC and they are toast after 30-40 miles worth of racing, with the DLC coatings they handle well over 600 miles in a single race and look like new when they come out and we still use them for a second race most of the time. If you could use it in conjuction with the apex seals I'm sure it would dramatically reduce the possability of them sticking or microwelding for the life of the rebuild if not more.
The engines (piston engines) we use DLC coatings in at work put more stress and wear on the parts then a high performance street engine would after atleast 200k miles. We test the same parts without DLC and they are toast after 30-40 miles worth of racing, with the DLC coatings they handle well over 600 miles in a single race and look like new when they come out and we still use them for a second race most of the time. If you could use it in conjuction with the apex seals I'm sure it would dramatically reduce the possability of them sticking or microwelding for the life of the rebuild if not more.
07-03-06, 01:00 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by TonyD89
But tell me they aren't worn at all. I've also taken apart high milage engine that had working seals but the seals showed visable and measurable wear. The coatings, like the afore mentioned DLC and others, are typically less than .001" thick. I believe they will wear through shortly and then you just have a standard seal. Plus your out some money.
oh, of course they were worn. my point was i'm more worried about them breaking than wearing out. if my 500hp fd engine makes it to 200k miles nad loses compression from the seals going away, i'll have absolutely zero regrets.
07-03-06, 12:03 PM
#29
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Thanks to all for the informative replies. I was not trying to be confrontational. Just looking for info. I now understand that the primary use of the coating is for the life of the sides of the seal and groove. I apologize for being thick-headed.
Kyrasis6, is DLC simalar to the PCD (poly-crystaline diamond) we use on carbide cutting tools?
Kyrasis6, is DLC simalar to the PCD (poly-crystaline diamond) we use on carbide cutting tools?
07-03-06, 06:02 PM
#30
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Quote TonyD89 "I now understand that the primary use of the coating is for the life of the sides of the seal and groove."
TonyD89, i think you misunderstood me again, the Nitrite coating is not to protect any perticular side of any seal from friction or wear at all, the coating is to protect the seal from combustion heat that could warp the seal, the coating helps repel and keep heat out. does this make more sense?
TonyD89, i think you misunderstood me again, the Nitrite coating is not to protect any perticular side of any seal from friction or wear at all, the coating is to protect the seal from combustion heat that could warp the seal, the coating helps repel and keep heat out. does this make more sense?
07-03-06, 08:57 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by RotorMotor2
Quote TonyD89 "I now understand that the primary use of the coating is for the life of the sides of the seal and groove."
TonyD89, i think you misunderstood me again, the Nitrite coating is not to protect any perticular side of any seal from friction or wear at all, the coating is to protect the seal from combustion heat that could warp the seal, the coating helps repel and keep heat out. does this make more sense?
TonyD89, i think you misunderstood me again, the Nitrite coating is not to protect any perticular side of any seal from friction or wear at all, the coating is to protect the seal from combustion heat that could warp the seal, the coating helps repel and keep heat out. does this make more sense?
My experience in coatings is primarily industrial with a little in piston engines. I didn't think that nitriding would offer up that much heat resistance. But I don't know.
I thought I saw the light with the other two posters. That reducing the friction of the seal in the groove would be benifitial and that the coating was not to prevent wear at the housing contact surface. I did not think it was to resist heat.
Once again thanks for the info. Don't know if I buy the heat resisting thing but i'm sure other posters who are using them will keep us all updated. Hope I'm not hijacking!
07-03-06, 09:53 PM
#32
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well you got one thing right, the RA seals are the way to go as far as seals go weather or not you get the super seals or the classic ones but if you read on their site or in the post i made they are exactly the same seal only with an extra coating, yes they do warp instead of break which i agree with you is a good thing but this coating according to them would prolong the warping or prevent it altogether without changing the brittleness of the seal at all or the friction properties.......... Just get the super seals, they are super for a reason, plus they have great support and customer service, and you cant beat that now a days!!! hope this helps more...
07-03-06, 10:18 PM
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^ you know what's really funny is i've seen 2 n/a motors break RA seals, but i haven't seen one turbo motor break them. i know it's just coincidence, but i still gotta laugh every time i think about it.
07-04-06, 01:32 AM
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intersting, makes me think that the seals do better under pressure than they do vacume and the mazda or other seals do better under vacume but not pressure, and we all know that pressure=heat so that is definately something to think about but also a posibility of coincedence....... hmmmm.........
07-05-06, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyD89
Thanks to all for the informative replies. I was not trying to be confrontational. Just looking for info. I now understand that the primary use of the coating is for the life of the sides of the seal and groove. I apologize for being thick-headed.
Kyrasis6, is DLC simalar to the PCD (poly-crystaline diamond) we use on carbide cutting tools?
Kyrasis6, is DLC simalar to the PCD (poly-crystaline diamond) we use on carbide cutting tools?
07-07-06, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
naaaaa,
it was probably just uber-poor tuning on the n/a motors, but possibly a bad batch of seals?
it was probably just uber-poor tuning on the n/a motors, but possibly a bad batch of seals?
07-19-06, 01:38 AM
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with the RA seals being harder than stock, and these being coated, i upped my premix levels to give it a bit more lube and hopefully be a little easier on the rotor housings. of course i won't know if it worked unless i pull it apart after 50k or so miles.
07-20-06, 02:07 PM
#42
Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
^ you know what's really funny is i've seen 2 n/a motors break RA seals, but i haven't seen one turbo motor break them. i know it's just coincidence, but i still gotta laugh every time i think about it.
Break? As in how? You mean chipped or warped from the first batch?
07-20-06, 02:10 PM
#43
Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
with the RA seals being harder than stock, and these being coated, i upped my premix levels to give it a bit more lube and hopefully be a little easier on the rotor housings. of course i won't know if it worked unless i pull it apart after 50k or so miles.
What's your new premix ratio? I'm going to pull apart my NA Fc engine at 10k to check for housing wear with my older RA seals. I premix at 1oz per gallon.
07-20-06, 03:05 PM
#44
I am just running 3mm "normal" RA seals and premix 1 qt per tank of gas along with using stock mech OMP set for max flow.
Took a while to break in, but it has been running great since (on junk housings no less).
Be aware that 50:1 premix ratio will reduce your fuels octane rating by ~ 2 points I believe.
If you use Mercury Quicksilver smokeless premix it won't smoke at idle, but when you forget to bring a quart of that and have to buy the gas station crud it will smoke a bit...
EGTS measured ~2" from the port peak 800C. It is important to keep EGTs down as well since it will burn off lubrication and can cause the seals to warp. 11.5:1 AF in lower boost to 11:1 at full boost richening to 10.8:1 above 6,000rpm.
Took a while to break in, but it has been running great since (on junk housings no less).
Be aware that 50:1 premix ratio will reduce your fuels octane rating by ~ 2 points I believe.
If you use Mercury Quicksilver smokeless premix it won't smoke at idle, but when you forget to bring a quart of that and have to buy the gas station crud it will smoke a bit...
EGTS measured ~2" from the port peak 800C. It is important to keep EGTs down as well since it will burn off lubrication and can cause the seals to warp. 11.5:1 AF in lower boost to 11:1 at full boost richening to 10.8:1 above 6,000rpm.
07-20-06, 07:45 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII
I am just running 3mm "normal" RA seals and premix 1 qt per tank of gas along with using stock mech OMP set for max flow.
100% capacity of the stock omp, AND a quart per tank (~12-14 gallons)? am i reading that right?
t-von, i was doing 2 oz/3gallon before, but now it's up to an oz/gallon.
07-20-06, 10:37 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
with the RA seals being harder than stock, and these being coated, i upped my premix levels to give it a bit more lube and hopefully be a little easier on the rotor housings. of course i won't know if it worked unless i pull it apart after 50k or so miles.
I am SO tired of this retarded myth being repeated over and over. RA claims their seals are 85% harder then other aftermarket seals (Hurley/Atkins IE playdough). They are no where near as hard as stock. You, yourself can EASILY test this as i just did. I just toke the lower, unharded portion of a stock seal and it EASILY scratched an RA seal. The RA seal could not scratch the stock seal at all. Remember this is the lower portion of the stock seal, NOT the electron beam chill hardened tip with is many many times harder then the lower portion. GO TRY IT. If they were harder then stock they would be more brittle then stock, they are not. Will this freaking die allready???
07-20-06, 10:45 PM
#47
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i can scratch a piece of carbide with a sharp piece of aluminum.
but what does that tell you? did you get out the c-scale or are you just soooo ******* good you can look at it and tell? use real instrumentation to get your answer on how hard they are.
but what does that tell you? did you get out the c-scale or are you just soooo ******* good you can look at it and tell? use real instrumentation to get your answer on how hard they are.
07-20-06, 11:26 PM
#48
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I Rockwell tested the triangular piece of my original three piece seal today.
It checked between 40 and 43 Rc in a test of three places and with out breaking under the force of the diamond.
I believe it is a 1mm (.040) dia. diamond under 50kg. pressure. Or is it pounds? I can't remember. The tester is set up for C scale.
CRS doesn't even read. Diamond is a 100. Drill bit ~60. Cast iron ~28.
It checked between 40 and 43 Rc in a test of three places and with out breaking under the force of the diamond.
I believe it is a 1mm (.040) dia. diamond under 50kg. pressure. Or is it pounds? I can't remember. The tester is set up for C scale.
CRS doesn't even read. Diamond is a 100. Drill bit ~60. Cast iron ~28.
07-20-06, 11:29 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by GUITARJUNKIE28
i can scratch a piece of carbide with a sharp piece of aluminum.
The scratch test IS the basis for the Mohs hardness scale and is used to determine the relative hardness of two unknown samples.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=2
07-20-06, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyD89
I Rockwell tested the triangular piece of my original three piece seal today.
It checked between 40 and 43 Rc in a test of three places and with out breaking under the force of the diamond.
I believe it is a 1mm (.040) dia. diamond under 50kg. pressure. Or is it pounds? I can't remember. The tester is set up for C scale.
CRS doesn't even read. Diamond is a 100. Drill bit ~60. Cast iron ~28.
It checked between 40 and 43 Rc in a test of three places and with out breaking under the force of the diamond.
I believe it is a 1mm (.040) dia. diamond under 50kg. pressure. Or is it pounds? I can't remember. The tester is set up for C scale.
CRS doesn't even read. Diamond is a 100. Drill bit ~60. Cast iron ~28.