Viper GTSR

Ernie, 44PSI on Q16!? Awesome stuff! However did you re-dyno on 44lbs?? If i recall correctly, your 781rwhp was made @ ~38lbs. How's the tune at 44...?

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Haha, nope not a marine but glad to be mentioned in such good company

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

We never made anymore power over 34psi. Whether I ran 44lbs or not, its out of turbo. No biggie, I'll go bigger next year

crispeed

Yeh but the torque kick is nice.
It's kinda like traction control. You get 40psi for a brief moment enough to get it moiving quickly then it dies of in time so not to over power the tires to any great extent.
I'm waiting for the 4280 but off course I was not suppose to mention that it's being done but my big mouth as usual!

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Looks like I ordered the NRS seals. Hopefully this works out for the best for my purposes.

thewird

BEX

can't seem to find the answer on this:

trying to decide on the 2mm vs 3mm seal thing as i am putting parts together for a new engine build.

info from experience out there is that normal(steel mazda) 3mm seals are more idiot resistant than normal(steel mazda) 2mm (at low-medium boost) but are harder on the rotor housings in the long run with (with medium to high sustained rpms) in rotor housings that are spec for 2mm like 13b-rew housings and dont get as good compression (and less low rpm power) either.

now, this thread shows evidence that the nature of NRS compound ceramic diminishes the lower compression issue that has plagued normal 3mm seals.

however, are the NRS ceramic 3mm seals still prone to being harder on 2mm spec REW housings in the long run like normal 3mm seals are rumored to?

i ask this because i want to build a relatively low power performance engine (no more than 350 whp) that will stand up to a lot of road racing miles that may also survive a lean out.

i know everyone will say that a good tune will allow u to run stock seals all day long. but the truth is that a good tune will not save you from everything like fuel delivery failure or stuck wastegates.

will i see the same longevity on 3mm ceramic seals as i would on 2mm ceramic seals at sustained high rpms (4k-7.5) on 2mm spec housings like rew?

on an NA app i wouldn't be asking this question but in turbo app can i have the benefits of 3mm seals and also the compression and high mileage associated with 2mm with the NRS ceramic product?

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

I dont think it has anything to do with 2mm spec REW housings it's more that the 3mm seal is heavier and wider that causes more housing wear and less sealing respectively. Either way we are talking about ceramic so weight and friction are massively reduced. Sealing is improved due to increasing the spring pressure.

That's not high rpm burn it up to 10k and now we're talking seriously though, I don't know that anyone has the proof for that answer yet (long term housing wear 2mm vs. 3mm ceramic) but either one you go with will be tons better than steel for housing wear.

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Just finished the 12A springs

pmr eng

Are the springs just chromium carbide coated on the ends only, where it comes in contact with the apex seal?

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

I've built a few motors with these seals and have had nice results. One thing I noticed is that with these seals and springs, the motor will actually built compression and kick back at you when turning it over with a wrench on an engine stand. A stock sealed motor has never done that to this extent for me. Just make sure you have the rotor clearenced/milled perfectly to the seal.

hoopajoop

But how long will that seal maintain? It's one thing to have a great seal at 0 miles. What about 100,000?

thewird

iTrader: (8)

The seals should hold their seal for the life of your motor because they don't wear.

thewird

BEX

my guess is that in general the harder the seal is, the more it resists wear. case: usage of diamond for cutting. case: race bearings are hardened

another thing to consider is coef of friction having a big impact on wear. some very hard materials tend to have low coef of friction when polished like diamond. and visa versa for soft materials when polished like gold.

i'm talking about wear here, not brittleness or ductile strength

justturbo2

iTrader: (4)

Hey crispeed, we know which seals is the cure. But what do you think would be the next best seal if you could not afford the nrs seals.

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

You can't afford not to have them. You simply save up your money until you are ready for them or get on the NRS payment plan

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Well here they are finally. There have definitely been some challenges with this project. After correcting one issue, another is created and needs to be addressed. Got that fixed but lost some more pieces to the development beast. Looks like I'll have enough to get the testing done though so that's all that matters I guess, at least that's what I keep telling myself in spite of the thousands lost getting to this point.

I hope ya'all like looking at them cause frankly I'm sick of looking at them 5 days measuring alone not to mention QC, polishing and annealing......then there's the springs.....holy crap I need a vacation. Suffice to say none of this has been easy at all and leaves me wondering if it will be worth it for me to even continue making them if this much time is required every run of parts. This is only a small run of parts, I cringe thinking about processing a major run. Got some ideas for items to help make things easier and most of the hard parts have been worked out but I can't get around the time it takes to make the fixtures and simply process the springs. It takes about 4 hours to load the fixture which holds 48 springs (4 sets). The fixture itself has consumed far too many hours in the making and I have at least 4 - 5 more to make. The next fixture has been revised a bit and I'm looking at making an index standard to speed up alignment.

For now we'll test with stock FD springs (pic below) but I'm looking into making some heavier springs for testing. Stock springs are 0.016" thick and we will try 0.020" and even 0.025" thick as we know we can afford about double the pressure of a steel seal.

This is the final slot bottom design and is pretty much what I envisioned from the beginning. Testing will begin very soon
Hard to see from the pic but there is hard facing on the right hand tip of the spring arm.

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

NRS Hard Faced C.S. Springs heat treated with an extra little twist for added pressure

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Why couldn't you have had this stuff ready before I put the motor together lol.

thewird

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Murphy's law

3mm corner seals and springs heading to Pineapple Racing on Monday. Rob will set-up and do some frictional sliding tests to give us some baseline idea of what to expect as compared to stock steel corner seals. Then in the engine they go.

Another 2mm set is going to Rice Racing in Australia where Pete will install them into either his SP or a customer car. Pete has a few engines with identical build and porting specs that will give us an idea of any gains in comparison.

And of course we have Crispeeds 4 rotor build which will use up all the current supply of hard faced c.s. springs. I am having another 4 sets of springs done within the next couple of weeks but it will likely be a couple of more to get them finished with polishing, heat treating and all the tinkering involved. It took several hours to put the extra twist to them and get them all the same.

Hopefully we can get some heavier C.S. springs made in good time to continue with testing. I will need to make some sort of fixture for putting the twist to them as any heavier springs made will be done on the flat. It will be quite important to get this process down time wise to keep the cost in line and it's looking pretty good cost wise for making them ourselves if we can achieve this. If all goes well we can likely supply aftermarket c.s. springs equivelant to stock as well as the heavier versions.

Happy Trails

Thadeous

When will they have these made out of graphene?

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

No special tolerances, just make sure you have a minimum of 0.002" very important.
Previously milled rotors should be fine for ceramics but again make sure you have the 0.002" minimum. Also make sure there are no pinch points along the groove. I recommend a long set of feelers so you can run the guage down the whole slot.

Indian

iTrader: (1)

Sven!! Flew in to Texas today and picked up the NRS seals and springs you sent for me. Thanks!! They Look great. The new build will be done next month after the rest of the parts come in. Will keep you Posted.


-Keith

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Keith! I knew you would like them Now you have the strongest apex seals ever made LOL

Here's the summary and pics

7envy

iTrader: (1)

Sven, for all your hard work, those corner seals are just sitting there mocking you - they look like a bunch of laughing PacMen. Lol.

Do you need a summer intern? I'm a Materials Engineer. :P

Glassman

iTrader: (1)

They wont be laughing for long hahaha, just working out the details for some serious testing to begin soon. Rob may have lined up some juicy test bed for the 2mm corners but I'm waiting to hear back from him to see if its a go. I'll provide details if everything works out for this testing. It will be really good to say the least but I dont like to count chickens so lets wait and see. My fingers are crossed though