NRS Rotorsports ceramic seal test results
10-17-07, 11:42 AM
#303
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Theres only one issue with that whole thing and believe me it's not critisism. Spot on tune and solid motor don't account for other mechanical failures that can and do happen even to the best out there. Don't even mention the guy on the street that is far from the best out there. Ceramics can break, and do break, and that means chances for damaged turbine wheels, rotors, and rotor housings. So If you had to deal with a mechanical failure, and wind up having to blow something and your just a kid with a limited budget, wouldn't your prefer to pay the labor on only a seal that bends versus a expensive seal plus potentially a housing, a rotor and a turbine as well? Suddenly your bill just got a whole lot higher. To the average guy on the street $600 bucks for seals and not having to worry about replacing his BB turbine wheel or a rotor housing on top of just replacing a seal is a honest, upfront, feel it now, savings. I'm tired of the arguement to be honest, of band aid this and that, be it seals or AI, or whatever, and believe me when I sincerely say this is in no way knocking you or your product. I've seen ceramics(not yours personally) break and take out internals. To say they wont is being dishonest, and I'm not saying you are, or that you are claiming it. I've heard people say unbreakable seals wont handle boost, yet I know guys running around 50psi on them overseas. That is more than enough for the street guy. Will they wear as well as ceramics over the long haul? I highly doubt it. But honestly how many backyard built cars(which or the majority) last for the long haul. Most are just pieces of junk at this point. (It sucks, I see it daily.) I think you make a great product, I think you have proven it more than adequately. I think each product be it yours, or others each have their merits and their markets. I think it only does a diservice to you to mention others products. And I'm not endorsing yours, or whoevers seals. I'm just making a observation.
Im with Sean i have used Ceramics and if they do go you get alot of other problems and for that reson i dont use them any more.
10-17-07, 01:55 PM
#304
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Jeff McCall, busted 2 seals - no damage.
Pettit Racing, busted 1 seal on both ends - no damage
La Anais, busted 1 seal - no damage
Ken Scheepers, busted 2 seals - no damage
Dave Preece, busted 1 seal - no damage
Dave Preece, busted 3 seals - damage
Gaby Diaz, busted 1 seal - no damage
Gaby Diaz, busted 1 seal - no damage
The first is one of my original prototypes that Pettit Racing put into a 300+ hp 1 rotor.
The car had an electrical problem and was detonating all down the straightaway over and over again. They got the seals for free so I guess they didn't care and wanted to see what the seals would take. Eventually they broke 1 of the seals and again the engine kept running. In fact they kept running it until the same seal broke on the opposite end. This was evident by the amount of carbon visible at the different breaks.
The second pic is from Anais
The third is from Dave Preece. This engine had some damage to the front rotor internals and 1 seal from the rear rotor (pictured below) did no damage. Remember this engine had the timing mistakenly advanced 16 - 18 degrees above normal timing.
The fourth and fifth are from Gaby
I don't have pics from Jeff or Ken but Jeff's comments are the first post and here is what ken had to say.
“Hi Sven,
I detonated the rear rotor (my good engine) on the dyno yesterday caused by a lean condition and broke 2 of the 3 seals plus a whole lot of other parts. My theory is that I had an injector failure or connector issue.”
I phoned Ken to ask about any damage and found out the 2 broken seals did NO damage to the internals.
Also here are some pics from Ken where the seals took some massive punishment and held. Trailing wires were installed reversed.
10-17-07, 03:02 PM
#305
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Really?? Then how do you explain this? These are instances from street use, road racing and drag racing. I'm tired of people saying that if a ceramic seal breaks it's GOING to do damage. It's not true!
Jeff McCall, busted 2 seals - no damage.
Pettit Racing, busted 1 seal on both ends - no damage
La Anais, busted 1 seal - no damage
Ken Scheepers, busted 2 seals - no damage
Dave Preece, busted 1 seal - no damage
Dave Preece, busted 3 seals - damage
Gaby Diaz, busted 1 seal - no damage
Gaby Diaz, busted 1 seal - no damage
The first is one of my original prototypes that Pettit Racing put into a 300+ hp 1 rotor.
The car had an electrical problem and was detonating all down the straightaway over and over again. They got the seals for free so I guess they didn't care and wanted to see what the seals would take. Eventually they broke 1 of the seals and again the engine kept running. In fact they kept running it until the same seal broke on the opposite end. This was evident by the amount of carbon visible at the different breaks.
The second pic is from Anais
The third is from Dave Preece. This engine had some damage to the front rotor internals and 1 seal from the rear rotor (pictured below) did no damage. Remember this engine had the timing mistakenly advanced 16 - 18 degrees above normal timing.
The fourth and fifth are from Gaby
I don't have pics from Jeff or Ken but Jeff's comments are the first post and here is what ken had to say.
“Hi Sven,
I detonated the rear rotor (my good engine) on the dyno yesterday caused by a lean condition and broke 2 of the 3 seals plus a whole lot of other parts. My theory is that I had an injector failure or connector issue.”
I phoned Ken to ask about any damage and found out the 2 broken seals did NO damage to the internals.
Also here are some pics from Ken where the seals took some massive punishment and held. Trailing wires were installed reversed.
Jeff McCall, busted 2 seals - no damage.
Pettit Racing, busted 1 seal on both ends - no damage
La Anais, busted 1 seal - no damage
Ken Scheepers, busted 2 seals - no damage
Dave Preece, busted 1 seal - no damage
Dave Preece, busted 3 seals - damage
Gaby Diaz, busted 1 seal - no damage
Gaby Diaz, busted 1 seal - no damage
The first is one of my original prototypes that Pettit Racing put into a 300+ hp 1 rotor.
The car had an electrical problem and was detonating all down the straightaway over and over again. They got the seals for free so I guess they didn't care and wanted to see what the seals would take. Eventually they broke 1 of the seals and again the engine kept running. In fact they kept running it until the same seal broke on the opposite end. This was evident by the amount of carbon visible at the different breaks.
The second pic is from Anais
The third is from Dave Preece. This engine had some damage to the front rotor internals and 1 seal from the rear rotor (pictured below) did no damage. Remember this engine had the timing mistakenly advanced 16 - 18 degrees above normal timing.
The fourth and fifth are from Gaby
I don't have pics from Jeff or Ken but Jeff's comments are the first post and here is what ken had to say.
“Hi Sven,
I detonated the rear rotor (my good engine) on the dyno yesterday caused by a lean condition and broke 2 of the 3 seals plus a whole lot of other parts. My theory is that I had an injector failure or connector issue.”
I phoned Ken to ask about any damage and found out the 2 broken seals did NO damage to the internals.
Also here are some pics from Ken where the seals took some massive punishment and held. Trailing wires were installed reversed.
10-17-07, 03:52 PM
#306
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If their tune was spot on these engines wouldn't have had the problem in the first place so your point here is moot.
Can we get on with something constructive now?
10-17-07, 04:36 PM
#307
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Ok, do you think Pettit's engine tune was spot on? How about Jeff's or Ken's? What about Dave Gibson? Was his tune spot on with the injectors putting out only 200cc? According to your logic his engine should be toast yet it still lives today.
If their tune was spot on these engines wouldn't have had the problem in the first place so your point here is moot.
Can we get on with something constructive now?
If their tune was spot on these engines wouldn't have had the problem in the first place so your point here is moot.
Can we get on with something constructive now?
i rally don’t know about any of the other engines or there tune’s I only know what I have experienced like I said I have had good results ware I was able to recover a lot of the engine parts but then there was other occasions ware the opposite is true. It is possible for the seal to brake in the middle like the picture you have posted, when this happens the seal can sag dawn as it goes pass the exhaust port and crash in to the closing edge of the port when this happens the peaces go dawn the exhaust port to the turbo or get carried around the engine by the trailing rotor tip in which case the trailing seal normally brakes as well and this is when chain reaction accurse and most of the damage happens. I can only speak for my self but this is what I have experienced and like I said they are better then other’s but I think you may find others who have had similar results as maine.
Any way thats my life story and i hope to use them again soon
10-17-07, 11:31 PM
#309
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What happened to your last post??? This post is a far cry from what you origionally wrote.
I was about to address what I couldn't believe I was reading and then it was gone!
Perhaps you actually read what I and the others said and retracted your post?
I was about to address what I couldn't believe I was reading and then it was gone!
Perhaps you actually read what I and the others said and retracted your post?
10-18-07, 08:55 AM
#311
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His last post did go out to those that receive immediate updates...
These seals are incredible. They have saved me from rebuilding my motor at least 5 times due to high rpm/high boost fuel starvation. (18lbs/5000-9700 rpm/wideband reading-13.8) My BnR pump was causing starvation and would have blown several motors before I figured out that the pump was intermittently "bad".
I believe that would justify the cost for me....anyone that says that these seals are a waste just doesn't want to spend the money. I also have overboosted (on stock twin..LOL) to 21-22 pounds through full throttle third and fourth gear passes and the motor is fine...
John
Before anyone comments on the mistakes I have experienced lately, let me just say I gave kids now and no time to "fiddle" with the car... My attention to cars has been reduced by 95%....
These seals are incredible. They have saved me from rebuilding my motor at least 5 times due to high rpm/high boost fuel starvation. (18lbs/5000-9700 rpm/wideband reading-13.8) My BnR pump was causing starvation and would have blown several motors before I figured out that the pump was intermittently "bad".
I believe that would justify the cost for me....anyone that says that these seals are a waste just doesn't want to spend the money. I also have overboosted (on stock twin..LOL) to 21-22 pounds through full throttle third and fourth gear passes and the motor is fine...
John
Before anyone comments on the mistakes I have experienced lately, let me just say I gave kids now and no time to "fiddle" with the car... My attention to cars has been reduced by 95%....
10-18-07, 11:11 PM
#312
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OOOOOk, let me see if I have this right. Someone makes a post on a thread and say's whatever they want. Then immediately delete's the post, rewrites some dribble and the deleted post get's sent to everyone subscribing to the thread with complete immunity for what is said.
Essentially it's a back door way of spamming everyone with their own agenda or opinion or crap with out having to answer for it?
Essentially it's a back door way of spamming everyone with their own agenda or opinion or crap with out having to answer for it?
10-19-07, 12:34 AM
#313
OOOOOk, let me see if I have this right. Someone makes a post on a thread and say's whatever they want. Then immediately delete's the post, rewrites some dribble and the deleted post get's sent to everyone subscribing to the thread with complete immunity for what is said.
Essentially it's a back door way of spamming everyone with their own agenda or opinion or crap with out having to answer for it?
Essentially it's a back door way of spamming everyone with their own agenda or opinion or crap with out having to answer for it?
Yeh kinda like inside trading!
10-25-07, 01:25 PM
#315
NYC's Loudest FD
OOOOOk, let me see if I have this right. Someone makes a post on a thread and say's whatever they want. Then immediately delete's the post, rewrites some dribble and the deleted post get's sent to everyone subscribing to the thread with complete immunity for what is said.
Essentially it's a back door way of spamming everyone with their own agenda or opinion or crap with out having to answer for it?
Essentially it's a back door way of spamming everyone with their own agenda or opinion or crap with out having to answer for it?
10-25-07, 01:54 PM
#316
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I think I'll call it a "hit and run", looks like this isn't the first time he's done this from what I understand.
The only mistake you made was trying that crap with me and don't call me what your mother raised! Eeeeaaaaww.
The only mistake you made was trying that crap with me and don't call me what your mother raised! Eeeeaaaaww.
10-25-07, 10:21 PM
#317
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Alright, only reason I took it down it cause most of the people here using these seals don't even need them! Demetrios used ceramics one time and they destroyed everything and he never used them again. More people that have motor failures that use ceramic will have MAJOR damage. I don't give a **** if they're NRS or Mazda's. Fact is 90% of the people that bought these seals didn't need them. Maybe in for a more extreme setup like mine, but hell I have good old regular atkins seals and make more power than most people on here. There you have it. Reply all you want now. It doesn't matter to me who you know use them. For the money you charge they're a HUGE rip off. Only thing they're good for is a band aid for shotty tuning. These people would be better off with a better tuner than $1800 in apex seals!
10-26-07, 09:04 AM
#318
It's not your money thats being spent so why should you give a ****?!?! You just admitted there a better seal "Only thing they're good for is a band aid for shotty tuning." so why can't someone buy the best for THEIR own engine overkill or not? Street guys cannot always control the fuel quality like you RACERS can. One tank of shitty gas and its over. Street drivers accumulate MANY MANY more miles then maybe what your 1/4 mile at a time maybe 10 passes a weekend? So a little reasurance is nice, and if its tuned right and never blows, many MANY miles later when the side seals or oil seals finaly give out, guess what? no need to buy rotor housings OR APEX SEALS when rebuilding. Not everyone likes to rebuild their cars once a year because their soft seals wore the hell out. SO your logic follows: buy inferior seals, if it blows rebuild and buy another set of inferior seals. OR just buy ultimate seals for more, but skip the whole rebuilding process and buying another set of seals BEACUSE THEY SURVIVED A FEW PINGS. Again, you said it "Only thing they're good for is a band aid for shotty tuning.". I'll add to your quote "Only thing they're good for is a band aid for shotty tuning or perhaps the unseen bad tank of gas, or a pump failure, or maybe an injector crapping out, or perhaps a critter got under your hood and chewed part of your harness (Yes, I've seen this happen LOL), your little nephew got ahold of your commander and thought it was a cool game etc.
I didn't see your post that got deleted, you obviously realised it was not appropriet. You should have left it at that.
~Mike.................
I didn't see your post that got deleted, you obviously realised it was not appropriet. You should have left it at that.
~Mike.................
Last edited by RacerXtreme7; 10-26-07 at 09:21 AM. Reason: Spelling/Grammar as usual
10-26-07, 01:39 PM
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More people that have motor failures that use ceramic will have MAJOR damage. I don't give a **** if they're NRS or Mazda's. Fact is 90% of the people that bought these seals didn't need them. Maybe in for a more extreme setup like mine, but hell I have good old regular atkins seals and make more power than most people on here.
Do you realise how many sets of seals have been sold and the only example you can offer is 1 case that I have never heard of until now.
90% of the people don't need them and you do but you don't use them. Don't let the fear of common sense get in your way!
I run them in my summer daily driver, an N/A 4 port 13B driven hard. Do I absolutely need them...no. Do I want them....hell yes! They will be the last thing on the whole car I will ever have to replace
That's worth it to me along with the performance gains.Sorry if my parts bust into your customer car service intervals, some builders may shy away from ceramics because they loose the regular tear down and freshen up intervals associated with steel seals.
Oh, btw $1800 is retail on 2pc seals. Trade price for builders on 2pc seals is less than Mazdaspeeds price on 1 pc seals. What a huge rip off. Imagine actually being able to make a $ selling NRS ceramics to your customers without inflating the price way over retail, crazy huh.
10-26-07, 08:39 PM
#321
But you and I know what's the deal there!
I've been using Ceramics well before NRS was around and I know the positives and negatives of doing so and if I was to base my findings only on the negatives then
I've only use the two brands of ceramics and I know the limits of one of them. Don't get me wrong because they will break and I have broken a couple like any other seal will when pushed beyond the designed limit of operation but finding that limit is the key to great success and the only way to find that limit is to push it.
Last edited by Rx-7Doctor; 02-03-09 at 10:09 PM.
10-26-07, 09:46 PM
#322
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Actually its you Cris that has no clue wtf your talking about. You spout off on things of which were never present. Straight from Dee's mouth to me "Don't ever use ceramics as they will destroy everything". Im not goin off what mary told sally. This is straight from him. So check yourself son.
10-26-07, 10:06 PM
#323
Actually its you Cris that has no clue wtf your talking about. You spout off on things of which were never present. Straight from Dee's mouth to me "Don't ever use ceramics as they will destroy everything". Im not goin off what mary told sally. This is straight from him. So check yourself son.
But yes you are correct I have no clue what I'm talking about. At least I try to quote my findings on what I've personaly experience and not what's told to me. I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way.
What you should do is delete all these post that have no bearing on this thread and pm me if you want to discuss this further. Or if you want you can have me banned!
I hate arguing on the internet it's so childish!.
10-27-07, 10:21 AM
#325
Why in the hell is ErnieT a mod. Shouldn't he be setting a good example instead of mucking up an informative thread. People can make their own decisions, we don't need some jackass telling us what we should and shouldn't use.
Oh, and Chris. How much horsepower did it take to run the 10.04 in Travieso's car? I bet i was a lot less than it took to run the 10.04 in Ernie's. Maybe it was the seals. Didn't Eric run a 10.0* with 603 hp? I guess it goes to show, it doesn't matter what seals you run if you can't drive.
Sorry about the clutter Sven, just wait a few minutes and this post will be gone.
Oh, and Chris. How much horsepower did it take to run the 10.04 in Travieso's car? I bet i was a lot less than it took to run the 10.04 in Ernie's. Maybe it was the seals. Didn't Eric run a 10.0* with 603 hp? I guess it goes to show, it doesn't matter what seals you run if you can't drive.
Sorry about the clutter Sven, just wait a few minutes and this post will be gone.