braking with clutch?
02-21-08, 01:32 PM
#1
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braking with clutch?
Decel going into a turn with the brake. Then fade out the clutch going into the apex. So your now braken in gear then. Let off the brake mid turn or a lil sooner then acel out...
Ive found it keeps the rpms up and since the engine is already going the same speed as the road. All you have to do is give the car gas coming out of turn ..... Kinda like tapn the gas while u slow down with the cluch out. So when u get back on the gas the rpms are already in the where u need them.
is this all in my head? does this make any since?
Ive found it keeps the rpms up and since the engine is already going the same speed as the road. All you have to do is give the car gas coming out of turn ..... Kinda like tapn the gas while u slow down with the cluch out. So when u get back on the gas the rpms are already in the where u need them.
is this all in my head? does this make any since?
02-21-08, 02:14 PM
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Ive been doing this for a few days now. It seems smooth tranffering the weight. I just wanna know if anyone has done it to, or has heard of somthng like this.
I feel it keeps the weight on the front then can be smoothy shifted to the rear with the engine already rev-matched at the apex of the turn
I feel it keeps the weight on the front then can be smoothy shifted to the rear with the engine already rev-matched at the apex of the turn
02-21-08, 02:26 PM
#4
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I press the clutch in let the car settle.
Began braking, strength depend on how fast/strong i want the weight to transfer to the front.
Then I bring the car back into gear before the apex to rev-match.
By the time i get to the apex im off the brake, the gas and in gear rev-matched so the cars front/rear weight transfer is nuetral.
At the apex acel out transfering the weight to the rear.
02-21-08, 02:27 PM
#5
Sorry, it doesn't sound like you've invented anything new. If I'm reading it like you are thinking it, its basically the only way to do it on the track and be fast.
Anything you can do to make transitions smooth from braking to turning to power will make you faster.
Anything you can do to make transitions smooth from braking to turning to power will make you faster.
02-21-08, 03:49 PM
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u maybe be right.
can u explain to me your technique
i just wanna know more about this kinda stuff
the only thing i have a hard part figuring out is why not push in on the clutch before or during braking.. i would have thought if u dont do it. It would release the preload from the engine that makes the front raise That would make the front drop and that ontop of braking i was thinking would make the front drop kinda fast.
02-21-08, 04:06 PM
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I have to second Jgrewe on this one. I have never been on an open track just autocrossing but i revmatch every shift every time no matter where i am or what i am doing, saves on drivetrain parts... soo what i use a little more gas and make a little more noise. I dont understand why you would say without shifting a gear you use the clutch to match the engine speed to the vehicle speed. If you leave it in gear it does that for you, also like in BAR Hondas now outlawed front torque transfer device any little bit of forward torque is a good thing to help keep from locking the rears and goin in backwards. I understand your attempt to be smooth but a proper rev matched downshift and trail braking will have the same effect and cost you less on your clutch.
02-21-08, 05:22 PM
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kk but there are more then one way around a track..
u maybe be right.
can u explain to me your technique
i just wanna know more about this kinda stuff
the only thing i have a hard part figuring out is why not push in on the clutch before or during braking.. i would have thought if u dont do it. It would release the preload from the engine that makes the front raise That would make the front drop and that ontop of braking i was thinking would make the front drop kinda fast.
u maybe be right.
can u explain to me your technique
i just wanna know more about this kinda stuff
the only thing i have a hard part figuring out is why not push in on the clutch before or during braking.. i would have thought if u dont do it. It would release the preload from the engine that makes the front raise That would make the front drop and that ontop of braking i was thinking would make the front drop kinda fast.
02-21-08, 07:07 PM
#16
There are many ways, just one fastest way, I don't know of any fast drivers that do this. I fact, we used to make fun of people that do this when I instructed on the Zoom Zoom Live tour a couple years ago. So, don't worry, you're not alone. Its good to experiment, you may want to pick up some books on driving if you are going to work on getting better without taking a school.
You should really never be coasting on a race track, maybe somewhere in certain conditions, but not a lot or often. You can have part throttle, enough to hold speed in a turn, but you should be either on the gas or on the brake. You will keep better control of what your tires are doing if you are putting a load through them. There is nothing wrong with the front of the car pitching down if you go from gas to brake, it's from weight transfer. The faster your car takes a set in its different state the better.
You are adding one more thing to worry about, for no advantage. It actually will slow you down because while I would be applying power, you are trying to rev match first. If you are on the limit of adhesion when you try to match rev's you may spin out if you get it wrong by only a couple hundred rpm. It will be like you hit the brakes with just your rear wheels if you're too low. By the time you've got the engine re-engaged to the driveline I've been at full throttle for a couple hundred feet.
You should really never be coasting on a race track, maybe somewhere in certain conditions, but not a lot or often. You can have part throttle, enough to hold speed in a turn, but you should be either on the gas or on the brake. You will keep better control of what your tires are doing if you are putting a load through them. There is nothing wrong with the front of the car pitching down if you go from gas to brake, it's from weight transfer. The faster your car takes a set in its different state the better.
You are adding one more thing to worry about, for no advantage. It actually will slow you down because while I would be applying power, you are trying to rev match first. If you are on the limit of adhesion when you try to match rev's you may spin out if you get it wrong by only a couple hundred rpm. It will be like you hit the brakes with just your rear wheels if you're too low. By the time you've got the engine re-engaged to the driveline I've been at full throttle for a couple hundred feet.
02-21-08, 11:27 PM
#17
heel toe = fastest down shift n easiest way to slow down n speed up. that is why ppl do it, that is why u see pro drivers do it that is why when ever u go to a track event most the drivers r heel toeing or are trying to learn how to do it. also u should read up on trail braking aka left foot braking, u'll go way faster depending on what line ur cutting (more of a late apex manuever via the speed abilities)
02-22-08, 06:32 AM
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There are many ways, just one fastest way, I don't know of any fast drivers that do this. I fact, we used to make fun of people that do this when I instructed on the Zoom Zoom Live tour a couple years ago. So, don't worry, you're not alone. Its good to experiment, you may want to pick up some books on driving if you are going to work on getting better without taking a school.
You should really never be coasting on a race track, maybe somewhere in certain conditions, but not a lot or often. You can have part throttle, enough to hold speed in a turn, but you should be either on the gas or on the brake. You will keep better control of what your tires are doing if you are putting a load through them. There is nothing wrong with the front of the car pitching down if you go from gas to brake, it's from weight transfer. The faster your car takes a set in its different state the better.
You are adding one more thing to worry about, for no advantage. It actually will slow you down because while I would be applying power, you are trying to rev match first. If you are on the limit of adhesion when you try to match rev's you may spin out if you get it wrong by only a couple hundred rpm. It will be like you hit the brakes with just your rear wheels if you're too low. By the time you've got the engine re-engaged to the driveline I've been at full throttle for a couple hundred feet.
You should really never be coasting on a race track, maybe somewhere in certain conditions, but not a lot or often. You can have part throttle, enough to hold speed in a turn, but you should be either on the gas or on the brake. You will keep better control of what your tires are doing if you are putting a load through them. There is nothing wrong with the front of the car pitching down if you go from gas to brake, it's from weight transfer. The faster your car takes a set in its different state the better.
You are adding one more thing to worry about, for no advantage. It actually will slow you down because while I would be applying power, you are trying to rev match first. If you are on the limit of adhesion when you try to match rev's you may spin out if you get it wrong by only a couple hundred rpm. It will be like you hit the brakes with just your rear wheels if you're too low. By the time you've got the engine re-engaged to the driveline I've been at full throttle for a couple hundred feet.
very good point but i thought how fast u tranfer your weight is just as importent as how smooth you transfer the weight.
as for locking up maybe i shoulda said somthing about doing this with fwd.... but u can also use it to transfer more stoping power to the rear on a rwd car or to the front on fwd... so u can fade the braking power to the front or to rear
so what your sayn is when u brake u stay in gear... if so your fighting the engine and the wheels instead of just the wheels if u have the clutch in right?
can u explain y braking with the car in gear is better then braking out of gear?
02-22-08, 06:41 AM
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1 clutch out of gear going into the turn
2 brake + cluch fading into gear 25-50% through the turn
3 all the way in gear no gas no brake at the apex
4 acel out
*3(using the clutch fading into gear to help brake while the road speeds up the trany to rev match)
02-22-08, 06:48 AM
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right?
02-22-08, 07:23 AM
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pendulum effect, while u accel the front raises and then when u brake the extra momentum makes the front "bob" drop past where it should be then it will raise slighty
?
right before the braking point
1 clutch out of gear going into the turn
2 brake + cluch fading into gear 25-50% through the turn
3 all the way in gear no gas no brake at the apex
4 acel out
?
right before the braking point
1 clutch out of gear going into the turn
2 brake + cluch fading into gear 25-50% through the turn
3 all the way in gear no gas no brake at the apex
4 acel out
One problem with your 1-4 steps is not all turns are driven the same, and I still don't know why you press the clutch when it's not necessary. We already concluded the clutch does not effect weight transfer (gas and brake).
Apexing the street corners is not like driving on a track. If you really want to drive, save up and do an HPDE day with a reputable group (NASA or whoever is in your area).
02-22-08, 07:52 AM
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Pretty much your best bet is get out and get some instruction. Any kind will help and almost every school i can think of will teach the heel toe if you dont know how. HPDE are the cheapest bet well even getting an experienced driver to ride along at an autocross would be good. Practice!
02-22-08, 08:23 AM
#25
i think u read it wrong while braking going into the turn u let the car fade into gear by the apex the road speeds up the cars trany so you are already rev matched by the apex
very good point but i thought how fast u tranfer your weight is just as importent as how smooth you transfer the weight.
as for locking up maybe i shoulda said somthing about doing this with fwd.... but u can also use it to transfer more stoping power to the rear on a rwd car or to the front on fwd... so u can fade the braking power to the front or to rear
so what your sayn is when u brake u stay in gear... if so your fighting the engine and the wheels instead of just the wheels if u have the clutch in right?
can u explain y braking with the car in gear is better then braking out of gear?
very good point but i thought how fast u tranfer your weight is just as importent as how smooth you transfer the weight.
as for locking up maybe i shoulda said somthing about doing this with fwd.... but u can also use it to transfer more stoping power to the rear on a rwd car or to the front on fwd... so u can fade the braking power to the front or to rear
so what your sayn is when u brake u stay in gear... if so your fighting the engine and the wheels instead of just the wheels if u have the clutch in right?
can u explain y braking with the car in gear is better then braking out of gear?
Second part, its sounds like we are getting somewhere.
Third part, if you think you can get more braking from the rear of the car by braking slower, you will be slower. About 70% of your braking power comes from your front wheels in the end so why try to fight the weight transfer effect and just get on the brakes hard.
Fourth part, you aren't fighting the engine unless you have forgotten to take your foot off the gas pedal. With the throttle closed the engine is trying to slow down so it is also trying to slow the whole driveline down.
Fifth part, braking in gear is better for many reasons;
- Less things to worry about in the middle of the turn
- Less wear on the clutch
- Less chance of spinning out when clutch is re-engaged
- Over all it will be smoother
- It will let you left foot brake easier
You really should pick up a book and start reading, I like your curiosity but street driving won't really show you what is happening. You can't go through a turn fast enough on the street for this stuff to matter. So in the end you won't know how it can screw you up at the limit.