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What went wrong here?

Old 07-15-05, 03:21 PM
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Question What went wrong here?

Can anyone tell me what went wrong here? http://videos.streetfire.net/Player....3-30F27911995F

All I got is, he turned hard to the left, so the rear started to drift. Now what did he do wrong to make the car spin out completely, rather than just continue to drift?

I think what would have been right (but I haven't had the space to try it out) would be, as the rear end comes out a bit, and the car is facing toward the left, to turn the wheel to the right, and give it gas, essentially going w/ the drift. Then when the turn's up, the safe way I like of getting the car straight and in control again would be to quickly let go of the steering wheel, letting the car correct itself, and you're done.

And yes, I do pick up a lot from videos, so that's why I'm asking (I watch, learn, then try try try until it works lol).

Also, if anyone knows what technique he may have used to complete the spin (a 360) vs continuing to slide sideways toward the wall, that would be a GREAT technique to learn. Not sure how to do it though. I'm thinkin, drop the clutch so it's essentially in neutral), turn the wheels to the right, allowing you to complete the turn, then momentum will carry you backward, and w/ the wheel still turned to the right, it'll turn you around to the left, facing forward again?

~Ramy
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Old 07-15-05, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FDNewbie
Can anyone tell me what went wrong here? http://videos.streetfire.net/Player....3-30F27911995F

All I got is, he turned hard to the left, so the rear started to drift. Now what did he do wrong to make the car spin out completely, rather than just continue to drift?

I think what would have been right (but I haven't had the space to try it out) would be, as the rear end comes out a bit, and the car is facing toward the left, to turn the wheel to the right, and give it gas, essentially going w/ the drift. Then when the turn's up, the safe way I like of getting the car straight and in control again would be to quickly let go of the steering wheel, letting the car correct itself, and you're done.

And yes, I do pick up a lot from videos, so that's why I'm asking (I watch, learn, then try try try until it works lol).

Also, if anyone knows what technique he may have used to complete the spin (a 360) vs continuing to slide sideways toward the wall, that would be a GREAT technique to learn. Not sure how to do it though. I'm thinkin, drop the clutch so it's essentially in neutral), turn the wheels to the right, allowing you to complete the turn, then momentum will carry you backward, and w/ the wheel still turned to the right, it'll turn you around to the left, facing forward again?

~Ramy
I'll start by saying.. I would not feel safe with you on the track if you're letting go of the wheel under any condition!
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Old 07-15-05, 03:32 PM
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To me it looks like he was under acceleration and lost the backend as he came over the crest and got lucky not to hit the wall…
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Old 07-15-05, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 88GT
I'll start by saying.. I would not feel safe with you on the track if you're letting go of the wheel under any condition!
Acutally that is a rather effective and much used technique in production based cars with relatively slow steering ratios. In an opposite lock situation where you need to re-center the wheel in a hurry it's alot quicker to simply let go of the wheel. The caster will pull the wheel to center. I've done it many times. It works.
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Old 07-15-05, 04:14 PM
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And without your *** in the seat you get nothing from these vids. The car crested the hill, got light, lost traction at the rear, and spun. He kept it off the wall by being a lucky SOB. Nothing more. What was the steering and throttle angles when the car lost traction, what were the G loadings? Without a data stream or being in the car it's just some other guy with a Porsche wanting to be Stuck at The Ring.
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Old 07-15-05, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig
Acutally that is a rather effective and much used technique in production based cars with relatively slow steering ratios. In an opposite lock situation where you need to re-center the wheel in a hurry it's alot quicker to simply let go of the wheel. The caster will pull the wheel to center. I've done it many times. It works.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.. the things you learn It still can't be an ideal thing to do. Given a particular situation one might get himself or herself into more trouble.
I wonder what instructor/school would advocate this
Ludwig, you get track time in SoCal?

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Old 07-15-05, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 88GT
I've said it before and I'll say it again.. the things you learn It still can't be an ideal thing to do. Given a particular situation one might get himself or herself into more trouble.
I wonder what instructor/school would advocate this
Ludwig, you get track time in SoCal?

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Answer my own question. No! You're not in Cali
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Old 07-15-05, 05:20 PM
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As someone who has instructed, as someone who has lots of track time, as someone who's won an SCCA race or two, as someone who was invited to test and subsequently offered a ride in a 700hp/1600lb USAC Silver Crown car, I'd say it's an effective method. But then again I'm no expert.
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Old 07-15-05, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig
As someone who has instructed, as someone who has lots of track time, as someone who's won an SCCA race or two, as someone who was invited to test and subsequently offered a ride in a 700hp/1600lb USAC Silver Crown car, I'd say it's an effective method. But then again I'm no expert.
Interesting! How do you feel about "when in a spin two feet in"
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Old 07-15-05, 05:53 PM
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Stock Porsche 911s are noted for doing what you just witnessed, unfortunately their weight bias makes them a challenging car to bring back from extreme oversteer. I've seen it in many videos and quite a few times at autocross.
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Old 07-15-05, 07:37 PM
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yeah, i'm kind of surprised that wasn't mentioned until now. 911's, especially older 911's, are known for "snap" oversteer. just watch an alms race and i'm sure you'll see 2-3 911's pull that off. it seems the cars naturally like to spin back around straight too, as in this video. you just have to hope you have enough asphalt under you during the spin for it to catch.

as for removing your hands from the wheel, this is also taught to save yourself from broken thumbs. when you know you've lost it in a racecar, you let go over the steering wheel and cross your arms grabbing the two shoulder harnesses. you'll especially see drivers do this in open wheel racing since the steering is obviously more exposed to violent blows, rotating the steering wheel hard and fast.
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Old 07-16-05, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 88GT
Interesting! How do you feel about "when in a spin two feet in"
After you've lost it? Sure. Stand on the brakes and knock it out of gear. What are you getting at?
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Old 07-16-05, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 88GT
Interesting! How do you feel about "when in a spin two feet in"
Absolutely. Once the car gets so far around you've should have already proven to yourself that you have lost control. Once you reach that point don't fight the car any longer. If the car is spinning and the brakes are locked the car will at least continue heading in the direction it was when the spin began and it will continue to slow. Usually those are both good things. If you choose to fight it and there's no chance of recovery you'll just make everything worse.
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Old 07-16-05, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig
And without your *** in the seat you get nothing from these vids.
I agree. I shoot a lot of in car video for my own use and to anyone who was not in the car it just looks like scenery going by. Video alone can't tell you anything about the car other than what you slammed into or barely missed. If it's a track you personally know very well you can surmise some things (or you can spot a particularly bad driver), but you are never certain. Hell, a car in front could have dumped coolant or something. You just don't know unless you were in the car or have data from the car.

That vid is especially bad because you can't see what the driver is doing in the cockpit. Given that people are saying "oh ****" and breathing really heavy my guess is they didn't know what they were doing. As C. Ludwig said he stayed off the wall because he got lucky, not because of anything he did to keep it on the track.

Last edited by DamonB; 07-16-05 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 07-16-05, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by FDNewbie
. Now what did he do wrong to make the car spin out completely, rather than just continue to drift?
Nobody I know would ever "continue to drift". The back end stepping out? You fix it NOW and tuck it back in before it gets out of hand, you don't make an attempt to dorifto around the corner. That's dumb. Make no mistake that any spin is driver error and drivers only spin because they screwed up. The only exceptions are car breakage or suddenly slick track surfaces.

I've spun more than a few times and it was my fault every single time. You pick your times though. Autox is low risk even at high speeds so I will drive at 10/10ths and knowingly press my luck on occasion. On any road course in my street car with other cars around I never drive past 9/10ths and in some corners were consequences would be especially bad I'll dial it back even more. You have to leave something in hand for when you make a mistake, afterall I ain't paid to do this

The problem with beginners is they don't KNOW. Getting too aggressive too soon will cause all sorts of problems; all of them bad, some very bad. Like anything else some experience will go a long way.
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Old 07-16-05, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 88GT
I'll start by saying.. I would not feel safe with you on the track if you're letting go of the wheel under any condition!
Everyone has their own methods. You know where I picked up this method? From the BEST. Ever watch those Best Motoring and other Japanese racing videos? Don't roll your eyes...you can learn a LOT from them, because the video shots are perfect. Wide, shows hand position at all time, shows the view outside the windshield, and on lower corner, they have a pic of the footwork. I watch, rewind, watch, rewind, understand, then go practice. And believe it or not, that technique has worked consistantly in every single sticky situation I've gotten into. In fact, now I actually make the back end come out and learn just how fast it'll recover under given circumstances. I was just doin that today, and in the rain. Works like a CHARM.

Oh and FYI, the guy I saw do this first was the one from the Porsche Best Motoring video, when he was testdriving the new 911 Turbo (2004?) and as he was coming around a bend in the track leading to the straightaway, the car got squirly on him, the back end came out, and guess what he did? He let go complete of the wheel for a sec. It immeidately recentered, regained control, then he corrected as necessary.

Unless you're an expert (you may be...but I'm not), it's a MUCH better and safter method than trying to correct. RX7s are notorious for pretty much losing it completely if you overcorrect. So would I advise or even try correcting and risk overcorrecting, making the situation even worse? No....not until I knew I knew exactly what I was doing.

Originally Posted by jeremy
as for removing your hands from the wheel, this is also taught to save yourself from broken thumbs. when you know you've lost it in a racecar, you let go over the steering wheel and cross your arms grabbing the two shoulder harnesses. you'll especially see drivers do this in open wheel racing since the steering is obviously more exposed to violent blows, rotating the steering wheel hard and fast.
Yea, but I thought that was exclusively a pro-racing technique. No airbags, just harnesses, and you fold your hands and relax, so your body doesn't absorb the impact bluntly.

Originally Posted by C. Ludwig
And without your *** in the seat you get nothing from these vids.
I knew that was gonna be most ppl's major concern, given that you can't see anything else from the vid. I figured tho that some of you much more expienced guys might recognize it as a common newb mistake or something of the sort...something I can make sure to avoid.

I'm guessing the snap oversteer you're referring to is also the same issue w/ the early (91 and 92) MR2s, right? The FD doesn't have that problem? (I wanna find out now before later lol)

Originally Posted by DamonB
As C. Ludwig said he stayed off the wall because he got lucky, not because of anything he did to keep it on the track.
Gotcha. What came to mind when I first saw it was this guy: http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mustangspin.wmv who simply looked like he knew exactly how to recover from a spin (you don't get lucky THAT many times in a row ) So I was trying to figure out what the technique was.

Originally Posted by DamonB
Nobody I know would ever "continue to drift". The back end stepping out? You fix it NOW and tuck it back in before it gets out of hand, you don't make an attempt to dorifto around the corner. That's dumb.
Forgive me...I don't know any better lol. So you're saying in all those Best Motoring and other performance videos, they're always inducing the drift...and its never used as a corrective measure?

I've gotten caught going around a turn too fast, and pretty much instinctively went along w/ the drift, since for some reason (don't ask me how...I didn't plan it or practice it), it was controlled. Happened a few times. I haven't had enough track time to really get the hang of recovering from such a scenario (and yes, not getting into it in the first place lol), so I mean...that's what I did. It works...

Make no mistake that any spin is driver error and drivers only spin because they screwed up. The only exceptions are car breakage or suddenly slick track surfaces.
Yea...I figured it's prob a combination of too fast of an entry speed, and then trying to correct too much w/ steering?

EDIT: My thing is, the HPDE's seem to focus on how to do it RIGHT. That's good, since prevention is always the best. But mistakes are inevitable, and I'm trying to learn how to counter mistakes. Ie, we're past the "this is how you do it right..." What do you do when it's past that, and you're trying to salvage the situation? From your first post Damon, it seems like your advice is to not fight or try and correct...let it be and it'll regain control? Maybe I'm crazy, but I'd think there's gotta be a methodology for correcting? From spins, drifts, etc.

Check out the first two paragraphs here: http://cars.about.com/od/safetyfacts...teenacad_2.htm I remember reading this a while back, and I was interested in something like this but at a higher level - where the point was to LOSE control, and learn how to regain it.

Last edited by FDNewbie; 07-16-05 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 07-16-05, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by FDNewbie
From your first post Damon, it seems like your advice is to not fight or try and correct...let it be and it'll regain control?.
You always fight and correct but you must maintain awareness so that you realize when you have lost the battle. If Michael Schumacher himself rounds a turn and gets into somebody else's oil even his talent is not going to keep him on the track. The actions you take as the car is getting away will dictate in what general direction the car will go. Often times you can lose control and yet still pick what you wish to crash into

Originally Posted by FDNewbie

Maybe I'm crazy, but I'd think there's gotta be a methodology for correcting?
The methodology is to not let it happen in the first place. You cannot correct a spin. Once the car decides it's actually going to spin it's because the driver has lost control and since he has no control of the car he cannot correct. At some point the spin and locked brakes will scrub off enough speed that you can perhaps regain control, but not while it is happening.
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Old 07-16-05, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
You always fight and correct but you must maintain awareness so that you realize when you have lost the battle. If Michael Schumacher himself rounds a turn and gets into somebody else's oil even his talent is not going to keep him on the track. The actions you take as the car is getting away will dictate in what general direction the car will go. Often times you can lose control and yet still pick what you wish to crash into
LOL...nice. And you wanna try and hit something head on, not at an angle, right?

The methodology is to not let it happen in the first place. You cannot correct a spin. Once the car decides it's actually going to spin it's because the driver has lost control and since he has no control of the car he cannot correct. At some point the spin and locked brakes will scrub off enough speed that you can perhaps regain control, but not while it is happening.
I got you. I guess I'll try and be concious of what to do to prevent the spin when she's starting to feel light in the rear. Thank God, I've never completely spun out, but that's prob cuz I drive more cautious than aggressive on the track. Seen one too many crash videos
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Old 07-16-05, 12:06 PM
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Hmm... if you listen to the vid... at the exact moment the car starts to skid, there is what sounds like a revving-up noise. I wonder if he was downshifting and let out the clutch fast and the rear wheels lost traction as they tried to speed up the engine....

Rear drive + downshift (or downshift into the WRONG gear) can cause the rear tires to lose traction and spin you, even on a straightaway. Remeber the Viper video that went into 2nd instead of 4th?
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Old 07-16-05, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FDNewbie
Yea, but I thought that was exclusively a pro-racing technique. No airbags, just harnesses, and you fold your hands and relax, so your body doesn't absorb the impact bluntly.
i was just giving another example of why some people teach to get your hand off the wheel. most of our cars have no airbags. this particular reason also is under the premise that you have a harness. it isn't really a "pro" racing technique as it is a racing technique in general. also, if you can relax while your car is hurtling out of control then you have nerves of steel.
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Old 07-16-05, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by FDNewbie
LOL...nice. And you wanna try and hit something head on, not at an angle, right?
No. Always hit at an angle. Hitting something head on hurts much more than hitting at an angle. Striking something at an angle will allow the car to deflect off of it slightly so there is not as much energy involved.

If somebody made you a bet and asked you to hit a brick wall at 100mph you wouldn't drive straight into it; that's the worst way. If you could run down it an angle and ricochet off of it there is not near as much energy involved.
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Old 07-16-05, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Wargasm
Hmm... if you listen to the vid... at the exact moment the car starts to skid, there is what sounds like a revving-up noise. I wonder if he was downshifting and let out the clutch fast and the rear wheels lost traction as they tried to speed up the engine....

Rear drive + downshift (or downshift into the WRONG gear) can cause the rear tires to lose traction and spin you, even on a straightaway. Remeber the Viper video that went into 2nd instead of 4th?
For some reason, this vid won't play for me... can someone host it or something and put the link here?

anyway, I didn't think people were supposed to be shifting gears during turns.... just downshifting before, and then after getting out of a turn, shifting up as necessary...
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Old 07-16-05, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackRX7Turbo
anyway, I didn't think people were supposed to be shifting gears during turns.... just downshifting before, and then after getting out of a turn, shifting up as necessary...
Several tracks require an upshift through esses or coming out of a hairpin (Buttonwillow anyone?)....and a few will even require making a downshift while turning....in general, you are right, you want to avoid shifting while turning if it is possible.

Anytime you come flying over a crest like that, the car will be very light and you must avoid doing dumb things....
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Old 07-16-05, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rynberg
Several tracks require an upshift through esses or coming out of a hairpin (Buttonwillow anyone?)....and a few will even require making a downshift while turning....in general, you are right, you want to avoid shifting while turning if it is possible.

Anytime you come flying over a crest like that, the car will be very light and you must avoid doing dumb things....
Anyone here ever go to the Glen? If so, have any of you ever run out of gear going up the esses? Or perhaps when turning at the toe onto the sole of the boot? If so, how would you changes gears there and how much gas to you give? I'm assuming it's "the right amount not to upset the car" if at all... I know my brother went there in his car and he wouldn't have enough gear to make it up the esses/toe in a gear so he'd either have to sit in the gear until the turn ended, or go up one gear before the turns and just have crappy speed through the turns/sets of turns....

with regard to a crest -- agreed... like at Madness at Mid-Ohio!
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Old 07-16-05, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackRX7Turbo

with regard to a crest -- agreed... like at Madness at Mid-Ohio!

Seen the latest Sports Car with the pick of Hetzler's Porsche with all four wheels up?
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