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A video for all Open Trackers

Old 03-12-05, 06:54 PM
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Exclamation A video for all Open Trackers

http://privat.hihm.no/morten/video/944.mpeg

Found this on another forum. No matter how careful you may be there is always the X factor when on track.
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Old 03-13-05, 12:22 AM
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That was fucked up!
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Old 03-13-05, 07:33 AM
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It looks to me like the camera car was on line and the *** in the red car was impatient. I'd kill him.
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Old 03-13-05, 10:35 AM
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That's about what I saw too. The loose nut behind the wheel of the 911 failed to back off and wait to pass on the straight, you can hear he's deep into the throttle when the hit occurs.

Man, some people cannot drive - and some of those people buy fast cars. Like that video that circulated of an open track day where the camera car was a Z06 trying to pass a 993TT and nearly taking him out with that same sort of duh-what's-an-apex? driving.

Thanks for the sobering vid, pinky. And nice sig too.
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Old 03-13-05, 01:01 PM
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What an idiot.
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Old 03-13-05, 02:21 PM
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Where is the forum where you found the video? I'd like to read the story that goes with the video.
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Old 03-13-05, 06:36 PM
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yeah wtf is the story behind it? That was nasty, I'd be incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly pissted.... pissed even.
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Old 03-14-05, 10:16 AM
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Contact = bad, no argument there. It appeared to me that the whacked car ran off the apex of the corner almost like he was trying to make space for the Porsche that was going by. We have this happeneing all the time with novice drivers on race day. They are trying to do the right thing and stay out of the way of faster traffic, but end up driving in the mirror and not running predictable lines. Any experienced driver will remind novices to hold THEIR line, and we will find a safe way around. Now, I'm not saying that the guy who hit the wall was ultimately responsible, but sometimes at speed we find ourselves in situations that turn bad without either party intending them too. Most true "track days" have limited passing rules to help prevent exactly this kind of thing. To me, stuffing the car under someone on braking and forcing them to give up the line is "racing". In amatuer racing, that pass would have drawn the attention of the steward and likely resulted in a penalty. In pro racing that would generally have been called a brilliant job of overtaking - but that is a whole different story. Shame is that too many present and future racers are trying to learn their racecraft from watching Nascar, Speed World Challenge, BTCC, ETCC, etc. In those series contact is not only tolerated, it is practically encouraged. When someone else is paying for new cars, winning becomes all that is important. I guess my point is, if that was a lapping day or track event then THE ORGANIZERS are responsible for limiting the kind of passing that will result in NON-RACERS from whacking up their expensive street cars. Above that level, believe me - local racing organizatons are doing their best to weed out dangerous and aggressive race car destroyers and either re-educate them or exclude them.
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Old 03-14-05, 10:33 AM
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Sorry, no story that I know of. I will ask the guy that posted the vid. To me it looks like a Porsche Club event. I posted it to just show how quickly things could go haywire(mostly to scare the newbies and remind the experts).
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Old 03-14-05, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Boswoj
Contact = bad, no argument there.
I don't disagree with your message, but I disagree entirely with your assessment of the situation. The lead car screwed up the line - he didn't get out of the way. He overcooked the turn, plain the simple. You can hear the **** hit the fender wells the second he gets offline coming out of the turn. The overtaking car carried a bunch of speed through the turn, and instead of waiting decided to go by. He wasn't carrying too much speed for a solo lap, but when there's a car outside of him at track out, he doesn't have as much room as normal.

It's hard to say who's at fault, in fact I would call it a racing incident if it happened during a race, but that definitelyshouldn't have happened. I've noticed during races that a lot of people have forgotten that it's the overtaking driver's responsibility to make a clean pass, not the backmarkers responsibility to keep from hitting the overtaker. Unfortunately, it's hard to reverse a lot of "experienced" drivers of their habits, since they're always the expert in their field.
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Old 03-14-05, 01:28 PM
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If it were a NASA Event, the 911(car that hit the lead car) would be buying someone a new car based on what I could see(assuming this was anything but a race), if it was a race both would be sanctioned. Of course corner workers, both drivers,and video would be reviewed. following that the event director would have final say If the santioned driver did not "take care of the other guy he would be banned.

These events too often involve experienced drivers expecting novices to know how to behave. the fact that the lead car was already in trouble simply means the following car was either not paying attention, or did not care, either way he ought to be sanctioned.

Even in open passing groups it is RESPONSIBILITY of the overtaking driver to make aclean pass. This means anticipating the novice will do something dumb, and waiting for a place to pass safely. Passing in a series of high speed esses is something that does not belong in an "open track" enviornment(as opposed to a race). Carl
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Old 03-14-05, 02:56 PM
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It looks like he took a bad line or was trying to get out of the way rather than take the turn properly and then let/allow the red Porsche pass. What exactly did the leading driver do wrong? I have only been to 2 track days so; I could fall under the stupid novice category if I am not careful. Near the end of my first track day I had a Ferrari following really close coming up to a 90 degree turn. I was doing about 90mph and had to brake hard to take the turn. I just ignored the fact he was there, finished the turn, and pointed him by.
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Old 03-14-05, 03:59 PM
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regardless the lead car wasn't going to crash until bumped by pink porsche, sure it may not have been the perfect way to take the corner but he wasn't going to crash on his own. The pink car in my opinion came over too early, and clipped the lead car causing the problem.
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Old 03-15-05, 10:42 AM
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There has been a lot of debate in ALL of the organizations that I race in about car contact lately. It is pretty universally agreed that BOTH cars are responsible for completing a safe pass! My post was never intended to apportion blame to either car, as the amount of information available on that video is not adequate to fully assess the situation. Before anyone else gets their panties in a wad, incidents DO happen at racetracks despite the best efforts of sanctioning bodies, organizers, workers, racers, track owners and insurance men. I make a reasonable attempt every year (although so far unsuccessful!) at chasing a class championship with my local organization plus running some long endurance races. I've never had to have a serious talk with the stewards for a number of simple reasons:

1) Racing has been a life long dream for me - now that I have had an opportunity to do it I can't afford to write off my car or my body! I would rather finish one spot back and have a car for the next race than teach a lesson to the scary driver in front. If I can't manage a safe pass, then I'll wait another corner and find a different way around.

2) I constructively interact with drivers that I have had a problem with on track. Going to their pit and screaming "you dumb son of a biatch, what the f do you think you are doing out there" will generally lead to that guy never being able to hold a constructive discussion with you again. Might even make him more likely to block you the next time. When I was a rookie, a senior driver made what I thought was a pretty dangerous pass, so I jumped out of my car at the scales and lit into him. He calmly let me blow myself out and said " If I made you feel unsafe in any way, then I'm sorry - come back to my pit and lets talk it over" and he meant every word. We went back to his pit, talked about the situation, and I learned some racecraft while gaining a friend that I still have today. I try to use him as an example whenever I'm dealing with a fellow racer who is angry, overexcited, or maybe just over his head. You can make a lot of friends that way, and improve both your own and their driving so everybody is safer and has more fun.

3) I volunteer and instruct at a variety of race and track events. If you want people to drive better - then get out and help make it happen. The guys that I sign off at the race school are the guys who I have to race with. It is a great incentive to make sure that they get what they need to be safe and have fun. I honestly learn something from nearly every student that I instruct, so it's a two way street.

4) I check my ego at the gate. Yes, I want to win and go fast and have a burning desire and all that stuff, but this is amatuer racing. Making enemies in every corner, crashing your own and others dreams, and generally being pissed off all week-end just isn't worth the five dollar trophy you are racing for. The guys I respect at the track are fast, smooth, safe, AND a lot of fun to be around.

Stepping off soapbox - Boswoj

Last edited by Boswoj; 03-15-05 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 03-15-05, 12:21 PM
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I agree that from the video it is very hard to tell who was at fault. Much of it depends on the "rules" setup for the drivers on that track that day. It does not appear to be a "race" so I imagine it was an open track day setup by an organization (possibly the Porsche Club). Those usually have limited passing rules.

It is amazing what newbies and aged vetrans will do at a track. Usually a newbie will be involved in a car/car accident and the vetrans will do something on their own. I can give examples of both.

I was "sort of" an instructor for a lapping day at a local track. I was riding with a driver who had never been on a road course before. I was in the car to give him pointers on hitting his marks for this particular track. There was 4 or 5 cars on track so there was plenty of room for everyone. The rules for the day were passing on the back stretch only. There were two cones that indicated the beginning and end of the allowed passing zone. This was preached and preached to everyone involved. Not two laps into this session where I was a passenger one of the cars slowed ahead of us. I immedietly reminded the driver, "do not pass, unless he is in the grass.... slow down!" My driver slowed down long enough to see a hole between the slowed car and the next apex and then he downshifted and made a move cut to the inside of the other car as we approached a double 90 turn. After choking my heart back into my chest I was able to scream "STOP" loud enough to break this kid out of his nascar fantacy and get him to slow down. We were headed to a high speed wreck that I didn't want to be in.

The second example with a vetran driver was at the same track about a year before. During a practice session there was an older Z car that was scarry fast. Driving it was a guy that had 15+ years SCCA club racing experience. On the turn leading onto the front stretch he put two wheels off to the right. At that speed most people would put both feet in and just ride the spin out into the grassy infield and race again. This driver kept his foot on the gas and tried to ease his way back on the front stretch. As soon as his front right tire was back on pavement the car overcorrected, spun and backed into the pitwall. Driver was ok, wall was destroyed and pieces of the car were loaded back on its trailer. Later I heard the driver say "I thought I could save it!" Had he not had as much experience he probably would of just hit the brakes and rode it out safely.
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Old 03-19-05, 10:41 PM
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Ouch! That guy got clipped! The camera car wasn't that far off the line. Sure he may have been 3 feet off that last apex, but he didn't make any sudden moves and was all the way to the outside at the exit of the turn where he was supposed to be. I agree with BMS2004 that there was no impending crash until he got whacked. The camera car was all the way at the turn exit before he was struck by the overtaking car. The overtaking car was accelerating out of the turn and didn't leave enough room. It doesn't appear very ambiguous to me. The 911 was enough faster that he could have easily waited one full second to go storming past. This is why many clubs that put on lapping days prohibit timing systems. People do stupid things chasing lap times.
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Old 03-21-05, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CarmonColvin
I agree that from the video it is very hard to tell who was at fault...
Regardless of the sanctioning body, the overtaking car is ALWAYS responsible for making a clean pass. Either that 911 lifted and got light, or he just wasn't paying any attention to the situation. Either way, it's the 911's fault.
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