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Track only FD project

Old 12-03-02, 02:39 AM
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Cool Track only FD project

I have just come to the conclussion that instead of modifying my 39k mile mint condition FD, it would be a much better idea to just buy a junkyard FD and put a pineapple PPed engine in it with ceramic seals and start from there, keeping my other FD as a street/twisties machine...

Anyone know how much a good base blown engine FD might cost? or where I might start looking? I plan to spend about 30k on this project(or more if I need to) and use all top of the line race parts(non-streetable), I'll prbly go with a GT35/40 and all the nessassary power add on's to get 500-600rwhp with the PPed engine reving around 9-10krpm.

For the body I plan to hollow the whole thing out ofcourse and try and get the weight down as low as I can (maybe some C/F here and there). For the aero I think I'm gonna eventually go with Chuck (rotaryextreme)'s new RE Amemiya widebody kit so I can put on some HUGE tires. I don't plan to finish this project any time soon, maybe in a year or so, start with the base car, engine, and ECU to control the PP, then build it as time goes on...What do you guys think???
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Old 12-03-02, 09:04 AM
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I assume by track you actually mean strip? I know nothing about strip cars...

If you actually do mean track, I would recommend some driver's schools and track time in a stock machine first... 255hp is plenty enough to get you in trouble. Then start adding suspension... then finally horsepower... Suspension is what will make you faster, anyone can blast down the straight, that's nothing to brag about.
It's when you get to the end of the straight with no one on your tail and by the time you get back to straight there is some guy in your rearview, that's when you say Holy **** that guy is fast!
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Old 12-03-02, 01:56 PM
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For all the money you're talking about, go buy an ITS RX-7 or a Pro7 1st gen and go real racing now instead of open tracking 2 years from now

I fully agree with Ryan. IMHO, spend the money on making whatever car you decide to buy stone cold reliable, get the suspension dialed in, and then go open-tracking every chance you get. The power, body kit, and huge tires aren't going to do you a damn bit of good if can't drive.

PaulC
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Old 12-03-02, 06:14 PM
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Chronos,

When you need a "shoe" PM me (hee hee)
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Old 12-04-02, 04:42 AM
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Well, in that case maybe I'll just put off the project for a while and invest in something and accrue more money for it...after all, it's not like there's gonna be a shortage of a trashed FD's in the future

I guess for now I'll see what I can do with a mildly tuned stock turboed FD with all the BPU's, I just wonder how long it'll take me to hit the vehicle's limit with street confortable mods...

Thx for the input guys!
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Old 12-04-02, 04:43 AM
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Originally posted by Silkworm
For all the money you're talking about, go buy an ITS RX-7 or a Pro7 1st gen and go real racing now instead of open tracking 2 years from now
PaulC
I don't really know what you're talking about...care to elaborate???
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Old 12-04-02, 01:52 PM
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Ok, let me explain. The term track and racing are a little too generic so it gets confusing.

Assuming you're talking about road racing and not drag racing (the term track and strip are used so interchangeably that it's hard to tell what people mean sometimes)

So, you want to get out on a road racing circuit with this FD. Do you want to just go out and have fun, or do you want to compete against a timer, or do you want to race with other cars wheel to wheel..

If you just want to go out and have fun on a race track, no competition (and thus little chance of getting hit by someone), this is usually referred to as tracking or open tracking..

If you want to go out and do time trials, this is usually referred to as Time Trialing or Solo I. You get 2-3 laps to make your best time by yourself on course (after practice and stuff of course).

If you want to go out and really race other cars, then we're talking road racing (aka club racing, circuit racing, gran prix racing, etc). You will bang fenders and bumpers eventually, although they don't actively go out and try to hit each other.

So, based on your earlier questions, and because the FD is not classed in my road racing classes (most wheel to wheel racing organizations shun turbo cars), I assume you are talking about open tracking this car.

So, rather than spend all taht money on an FD, which is already a dead end (as far as road racing goes), I suggested buying a RX-7 that's already built for racing. ITS (Improved Touring S) features 2nd Gen NA RX-7s and 1st gen 13B RX-7s, ITA/IT7 features 1st gen 12A RX-7s, and Pro 7/Spec 7 features 1st gen 12A RX-7s with very strict rules as to what you can do to the car.

In any case, don't go overboard with this FD, you've got a long long way to go before you're ever going to be faster than the car is capable of going.

I see this problem a lot with my Chevy/Pontiac friends.. They decide they want to go racing, they build a wicked 355/377 engine and plunk it into a Camaro and wonder why Miatas are they're main competition.. It's because they didn't spend time learning how to drive the car, and now they spend all their time fixing broken parts that their big engine keeps eating alive. When they finally do get it to run right, the car has way too much power for the suspension (since they didn't spend any time working on that), and driving the car becomes a game of point and shoot. One guy I know hasn't finished more than 2 races in a row, he keeps blowing things up. Meanwhile guys that race in Camaro Mustang Challenge (305cid V8 stock engines) are 10-15 seconds a lap faster because they can drive the car!

Anyway, hope this isn't discouraging to you. Seriously, the FD is a great platform to learn from, but dont' spend your money on the car to go fast, spend your money to make it reliable, then go out and have fun!

PaulC
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Old 12-05-02, 12:42 AM
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I am with Paul. I open track my FD and I have enough fun and am competitive running at only 10psi. boost. Why crank it up and worry about blowing it up or shooting off the end of a straight away? I get a bigger rush pushing it in the corners and improving my skills. In fact I am now prepping my FC for track duty so I don't have to put the FD through the beating. I may get pulled on the straights but no one will beat me in the corners.
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Old 12-05-02, 01:21 AM
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yeah, I had this funny little idea when I was a teenager to build the best possible car for one purpose, RACING...and when I get to the point where it can become a possibility, what happens? I found out that all the racing gurus(the ******** who make the rules) allready know what makes a fast car and banned it. GG me. I'd like to atleast think of the rx7 and 787B as martyrs...gotta make it fair for all those old clunkity peice of **** low tech PISSED ON V8's! God, everything revolves around money, it's so disgusting to the racer/engineer at heart who tries to answer the core question of how to get a car around the track the absolutely fastest way possible. Atleast I still have Forumla 1...btw did I mention? I HATE RACE POLITICS!!!
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Old 12-05-02, 01:45 AM
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heheh... Did we get Chronos riled up or what?

Turbo cars have a particular problem, it's real easy to find ways to turn UP the boost.. Since most of the racing classes are grouped by similar cars with similar power/weight ratios (although how we got stuck with the E36 BMW in ITS I'll never know ), this is a challenge to manage. Since amatuer racing is mostly volunteer, it's not so simple to just throw resources at checking cars to ensure proper boost levels..

So they don't have classes for them except in the real open classes (like Carl's FC is being built for).. Of course, that means money. To compete, you need serious power, serious suspension work, and serious rubber..

Ok, so what about these open classes. Like we said to Carl when he talked about racing ITE (Improved Touring Everything), like my buddy with the 377cid Camaro, you can do this, but it's going to cost some serious cash, more than I think you realize. I mean, my NA RX-7 has cost me 13K to build as it sits now. Start tossing a $10K motor and built tranny, built rear end, $5K body kit plus however much for paint and prep, whatever the turbo, intercooler, ECU, and rest of the crap you'll need to run it, and you'll be pushing well into 30 to 40K, not including the cost of the car!!!!!! Want to start getting exotic like CF or lexan, I hope you have rich uncles..

And then who's going to tune it, that's dyno time. God forbid you blow the motor getting boost levels where you want it.. 10K motor? junk. ****.

So if you really want to do this, start small.. You're in SD, I know there's at least one track near you, look for the next CalClub event down there and go watch. See what cars are hot, what cars aren't.. Don't get locked into a particular car type either.. Sure we all love RX-7s, but the 1st gen has fallen from king of the hill to the CRX, the 2nd gens are under serious pressure from the BMW E36s..

The 2nd gen like mine has loads of potential for a budding race engineer.. What does 50 lbs of weight extra on a cross weight do to the handling of the car, what effects will changing caster have on camber, how much toe in is appropriate, what effect will going to toe out have on the car (and thus laptimes). What about 2psi extra in the rear tires? How about differences in weight balance as you burn fuel off? Why does the 2nd gen react better to no rear swaybar? What tweaks can I make to the engine within the rules to get the most power?

All of these questions are things that you can go out and learn. They are also things that are almost impossible to learn when you're dealing with a super fast car. When you have 400 rwhp, killing the rear tires in a smoky tire spin is nice to watch, but adding 2 psi to that mix may not do a damn thing because you've heated the tires up so badly with wheel spin.. Those alignment settings may be off but you'd never know it because every time you put the power down the back end wants to go somewhere else. Etc etc.

Anyway, I seem to have this conversation a lot, I should write a web page on it

We won't talk about F1 when it's politics, right? Nothing like letting your team mate pass you to take the lead because he's the big kahuna.. no, no politics in F1

PaulC
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Old 12-05-02, 04:01 AM
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I love these racing theory conversations

Ok, silkworm, to better understand me you have to understand that I like to look at things at a fundamental level, and I'd say a wider perspective. On a basic engineering level the rotary IS the best platform to use as an engine. much higher hp per size/weight, that's all there is to it...It IS a superior engine design and the FD IS a superior car!

my concern with "race politics" is that the FD has to run such low hp, as seen in cam's rx7. Letting heavy boats like the corvette run much higher power/weight ratios just to make it "fair"! It's an outright insult to a manufacturer that spent so much time and energy in creating a superior machine...what's the point of building a better car if it'll just get penalized up the *** and not be able to run at it's full capablity?! The reason why is this: if corvettes weren't allowed to cheat they'd get their *** handed to them on the track and what would that do to their image? to sales? to the economy? Ok, I'm carrying on...but you get the idea

The race politics you mentioned in formula 1 have to do with driver skill rather than vehicle performance. So they don't really bother me as much...it would be unprofessional of ferrari to let their #2 driver take points away from their #1 man (even with such a huge lead). People are probably more aware of the fact that he's winning races anyways since it's such a big deal. So the driver ends up getting his due credit and Ferrari retain a professional and secure image in F1. It's not like they're greasing palms and scratching backs to create special rules for themselves to give them an unfair advantage over other manufactures. No racing organization would stand for that! ohhh wait....
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Old 12-05-02, 12:10 PM
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Wait, who's Cam, and what race series is this? Are we talking Pro racing now???? If so, then what does this have to do with you getting out on track, unless you're just made of money, have a shop with 10 guys, and the desire to build your own race car, we can argue about how the RX-7 got screwed in the pro ranks all day long but it doesn't matter since neither you nor I will probably ever go pro. And if you do go pro, the last thing you'll worry about is how the RX-7 got screwed, you'll be more worried about your next sponsor

Regarding the RX-7 and the corvettes cheating, I'm guessing you're referring to World Challenge? IIRC, world challenge requires the car chassis to be less than 5 years old, so the RX-7 is no longer legal in that series as of 2000. Whether or not the RX-7 got screwed, look at the 911 domination going on right now, the Corvettes are getting jacked right now, there's only 2 left in teh series anyway. The NSX is got a non production supercharger to make it competitive, but it's all politics.. Acura wanted a presence, they lobbied to get Realtime a car that could win (and get Cunningham out of that Bimmer), and so they did. If Mazda wanted an RX-7 presence, they could have done the same thing (well, up until 2000 anyway), but they chose not to. Right now Mazda is focusing on the Protege in Touring car, and look at how their racing program is coming along there, always in the top 5, they've won a couple of races. Maybe the RX-8 will get into World Challenge GT (although with 250 HP, they got a lot of work to get it up to the 400-500HP levels most of the WC cars run)

All above from a fan's point of view, I don't race WC, I have no desire right now to race WC.

So, can we go back to you and your racing desires or do you want to continue talking about pro racing?

PaulC
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Old 12-05-02, 12:14 PM
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Oh, and regarding the F1 stuff, I'm a race car driver, I came to win. I don't give a rats *** about Shuey looking bad, if I have a huge lead, I'm going to try to win. Yes, it's part of racing politics, but I'm far more irritable about something like that than the 7 year old RX-7 getting gipped in a racing series, as a race driver, I'm not tied to one car. If the RX-7 doesn't win, I'll move on to other cars, other series. Yeah, the RX-7 has a great weight distribution, but it's not the only car with good weight distribution or a good suspension design..

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Old 12-05-02, 08:33 PM
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Cam is Cam Worth of Pettit Racing. He's run his FD racecar with respectable results (given his relative level of funding, support, and rules lobbying) in a couple of Speedvision GT races this year.
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Old 12-05-02, 09:28 PM
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He ran the FD this year? I watch the SVGT stuff religously and I don't recall ever seeing an FD there.. What tracks?

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Old 12-07-02, 09:40 AM
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I think Cam was in the Grand American Road Racing series? You don't see Cam because he's usually running mid-pack, and the Speed Channel cameras are usually only focused on the lead cars...

Originally posted by Silkworm
He ran the FD this year? I watch the SVGT stuff religously and I don't recall ever seeing an FD there.. What tracks?

PaulC
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Old 12-07-02, 09:42 AM
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Well at least Cam's competing. I've never seen Brian Richard's M2 GT Rx7...eventhough this car is plastered on the M2 website like it's a serious comp car (which it probably is, I just haven't seen Brian race it on TV?!)
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Old 12-07-02, 09:49 AM
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Paul C, to be fair, I don't think Chronos has a clue with regard to serious club racing. I don't think he's even driven his car on a road racing circuit. FWIW, I think he's just in the "dream-planning" stages.

Chronos, what you need to do is fix your car and take a few drivers education classes with the Cali Car club. See if you even like open track driving. As Max and I have posted to you before, as well Paul C has just posted (most eloquently, might I add), you need to get your skills up just to match a stock FD before you even think about modding.

As you know I have a separate thread in the FD section regarding power mods. Do keep in mind, that I've done 30 plus drivers ed events in a basically stock FD (intake, dp/hi-flo-cat/catback, 10.5 psi control) with suspension, brakes, and sticky tire upgrades. I've plataued, in the car in its current state, and am looking for a little more exit speed. The reason I'm asking for advice on mods is because I want to build a reliably fast car, not just a fast car for 1/4-mile passes... My motor and turbos have 102,250 miles, and about 9% of those miles are on track. I envision a ported KD Rotary motor in my future. I already have the J-spec twins and Koyo radiator. Now I need a large IC, better intake, and a good fuel computer (I'm clueless in the A'pexi Power FC forum!!! )

Last edited by SleepR1; 12-07-02 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 12-07-02, 10:18 AM
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Cam ran with us in Speed WC GT for 2 or 3 races this past season.
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Old 12-07-02, 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by SleepR1
Paul C, to be fair, I don't think Chronos has a clue with regard to serious club racing. I don't think he's even driven his car on a road racing circuit. FWIW, I think he's just in the "dream-planning" stages.

Chronos, what you need to do is fix your car and take a few drivers education classes with the Cali Car club. See if you even like open track driving. As Max and I have posted to you before, as well Paul C has just posted (most eloquently, might I add), you need to get your skills up just to match a stock FD before you even think about modding.

As you know I have a separate thread in the FD section regarding power mods. Do keep in mind, that I've done 30 plus drivers ed events in a basically stock FD (intake, dp/hi-flo-cat/catback, 10.5 psi control) with suspension, brakes, and sticky tire upgrades. I've plataued, in the car in its current state, and am looking for a little more exit speed. The reason I'm asking for advice on mods is because I want to build a reliably fast car, not just a fast car for 1/4-mile passes... My motor and turbos have 102,250 miles, and about 9% of those miles are on track. I envision a ported KD Rotary motor in my future. I already have the J-spec twins and Koyo radiator. Now I need a large IC, better intake, and a good fuel computer (I'm clueless in the A'pexi Power FC forum!!! )
You guys seem to think that I'd be running 500+hp and 11" wide tires right from the start...

The whole idea behind this car is to have a different car to build up than my street car. That way I don't put my my 37k mile FD through racing abuse and sacrifice drivability, not to mention throwing away perfectly good parts. Also, I wouldn't have to worry about stupid **** like smog and street drivability on the race FD.

I think I allready stated (maybe in the 3rd gen section, same thread) that I'd only be starting off with a stripped interior, racing seat, wheel and about a 280hp. Then add more **** as I plateu. Doesn't this seem a little bit more practical to you racing gurus?
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Old 12-08-02, 10:31 AM
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Chronos,
I can solve your project easily...
buy my finished track car...
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=129839

It has all the parts and is a rocketship.
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Old 12-08-02, 11:45 AM
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Chronos, While I agree with SOME of what Paul has said, I will also say that a properly set up car with 500hp is a hell of a lot more fun to drive than a properly set up car with 180hp There are plenty of venues to drive a car like mine in. It is true there is only one race series, but why would there need to be more than one (paul)? NASA Super Unlimited is an active class where you live, and it is dominated by rotaries. I suggest to those who think that 500hp is too much for Chronos' goal you should get in your festivas and work on car control Respectfully submitted, Carl Byck
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Old 12-08-02, 12:24 PM
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Carl,

You still haven't answered me on why a guy with 300 more HP, the same suspension design, and probably a lighter weight car (I'm 2770 with me in the car) is only 2-3 seconds faster at Sears than I am.. No, could it be that it's you that needs the work?

You can talk about festivas all you want, you've got 10-12 seconds to drop before you can compete in SU.. And instead of spending your time worrying about how to drive better at the last event, you spent more time stressing about where you had a coolant leak coming out from.. Why is your car dumping black smoke on acceleration? Hey, you want to spend your time futzing with your car, go for it, but I'm going to continue to fight against the idea that people should follow in your footsteps and get discouraged.

Chronos,

Sounds like a good start to me.

PaulC
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Old 12-08-02, 01:38 PM
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Yeah, but it has no running gear? Didn't you sell the CCWS and Hoosiers already?

Originally posted by bradrx7
Chronos,
I can solve your project easily...
buy my finished track car...
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=129839

It has all the parts and is a rocketship.
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Old 12-08-02, 08:53 PM
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Grumpy <g>, I switched to 18x10s and Dunlop slicks all around. the car is still for sale.
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