Carl Byck

Anyone have one, or know someone who does? here is the link; http://www.lfttech.com/index.php It makes some claims about side impacts, but the screen shot shows a seat with side head restraints. Thanks, Carl

ddewhurst

Caryl, notice the test data for the Isaac is not included.

M's

Just buy the HANS, i know it's expensive but there is a reason 99% of the professional drivers i know use it. It's proven.

Carl Byck

I am familiar with the Issac, but it has not passed the new SFI test as of yet(AFAIK). I would choose the Isaac over the Hans in a seat without head restraints anyway. I am not a proponent of the Hans due to its lack of restraint in a side impact/multiple impacts. For a frontal it is either the best, or second, but most of us lack the proper side protection in our cars. If the R3 is viable, I would do that before replacing my seats. I am running a net on the right, but I think that its effect is limited. That said, it looks pretty good in the screen shots from some tests. There is alot of info on the Isaac on the SCCA/PCA forums, the R3 looks pretty good, although I am not sure how far it moves you forward in your seat yet. It sure looks like a better mousetrap to me. Maybe Tim will chime in, I know he has really studied this stuff, as have I, just wanted to hear from people using it. I am going to call the company, and get some referals, I'll keep everyone posted. Carl

Carl Byck

Pro level cars have what is NOW KNOWN to be proper side impact protection, 99% of amateur cars lack side impact protection built into their seats. Without that protection, and a six point harness, the Hans does not pass the old, or the new tests. As for cost, this is cost independent, the R3 costs the same as, or ~100.00 more than the Hans. Did you check the site, or are you simple regurgitating old discussions. Since the sanctioning bodies needed a rule on this, they listed the only (at the time) SFI 38.1 restraint available. Thus all pro level drivers were required to use it. Now, there is a new device that appears to have the benefits of the Hans, plus many other important features, such as side impact protection, and quick releases. I suppose since many pro athletes use steroids, that it is a good idea, or the fact that pro skateboarders used to not wear helmets that are kids should not, on and on.... LOL Anyway, don't be so quick to dismiss things, there was a long time were nobody would wear a Hans, it's called staying informed, and that is the purpose of the thread.

christaylor

I'd be curious, like Carl, how far it moves you forward in the seat. I'm not the hugest guy around, but my seat is almost as far back as it will go in my Spec7 (with it's Spec-Autopower cage). I also don't like the fact that it's back there... I get uncomfortable if my T-shirt folds over back there.

Put me down as a future owner of a HANS ($100 shy!).

Carl Byck

Chris, have you done anything for side impact? It takes alot less of a side impact, than a frontal to hurt you(less than half the force from what I have read). This is why a boxer is usually knocked out by a hit on the temple as opposed to the chin. The nerves/arteries/tissue between the two halves of our brains are very fragile. It looks uncomfortable, but llike the guys from Isaac say, unless youcompare it to other restraints, you will not like any of them. Carl

DaveB

Carl,

There is a reason some of the systems have not passed the SFI test, and many of them are not based on performance. After seeing a test at Delphi a short while ago, I can attest to the myriad of hoops and political hurdles one must deal with in order to get past the test. It isn't all about performance........remember, there are huge dollars at stake here.

db

Carl Byck

I do not disagree, but since R3 has passed these hurdles where their other products have not, I think it lends a certain amount of credibility, ie they are not getting every product that they profer through the test. With the device extending downward as it does, it certainly will yeild better support that the Hans side to side, then not relying on your belts(my biggest problem with the Hans), and having the quick releases makes it more attractive. Obviously this is very serious business, and I am aware of your connections to the cause, so thank you for your input, best regards, Carl

2MCHPWR

iTrader: (2)

is this good?
gforce SRS:
http://www.fastraceproducts.com/gfor...ystem_srs1.htm

Carl Byck

Basedon the test data I have seen, it did not pass the current test. It was one of the poorest performers. Remember, that anything is better than nothing. The lowest cost device that seems to have a level of performance that willl really make a difference, is the Hutchens II. The old Hutchens failed however. Carl

SCCAIT7

From a guy who spent the money to buy a HANS... The device is very uncomfortable. As many of you know a spinal injury comes from impact with a fixed object and speed. While I do not want to discourage anyone from safetly in their racecar... I would advise you to look at the tracks your racing at... The run-off... type of walls... exc. My home track is Road Atlanta... At this track their is ALLOT of run-off and at many of the turns their are gravel pits- which slow the car in the event of control lose. I race with between 15-45 cars in my IT-7 class and I would say about 3 of them use a HANS. And while I am sure that its because some simply cannot afford it- However... I think some people realize that we are not reaching speeds over 130...AND in the event they do loose control...many times run-off and gravel pits slow the car SIGNIFICANTLY before impact with a major fixed object. When you think about NASCAR- They are racing between 180-200MPH with virtually NO run-off room to loose speed. While I will use my HANS at a track like DAYTONA- A track like VIR or Road Atlanta it stays in the trailer.

Just one mans opinion....course...we all know about those!! Best of luck!

M's

Carl, I feel parralleling steriod use is somewhat childish. Nevertheless, I did not fully read the website and clearly you have done more research than myself. The side impact issue is just that, an Issue. The seats that are SFI and FIA approved are what you seem to be adressing here. Which is a big deal, And as you know nascar is about the only series where I have seen the seats taylored for impacts. Their seats are heavy by any means (50 lbs, even the carbon seats) and they have very poor visibility which makes them non-ideal for the type of racing you plan to do. I think this R3 would be extremely uncomfortable and would lend itself to driver fatique. Care to link the test data?

Carl Byck

The test data is already linked above. At the top of the linked site there is a heading for comparative data. I won't call you a name for missing it though I just am troubled by the blind folowing a device (Hans) with severe deficencies seems to have, which IMHO you demonstrated. In amateur motorsports, there is certainly a call for more reasonably priced protection, as pointed out by DaveB, the process for certification(kind of like CARB) is unweildy, and expensive. At some point, some organizartion will hopefully foot the bill to properly test all entries. Ideally, there would be categories matching the most common forms of racing, as it is obvious that the needs are completely different from segment, to segment of the sport. Then tests incorporating the standard equipment in those cars would be used to set forth recomendations/observations, as to the performance of each available alternative. Perhaps we ought to start a grassoots effort to convince these bodies, and the manufacturers, that this is a great way to move forward. As ,long as the equipment works marginally, is miserable to wear, and costs 1000.00, people will continue to balk at the idea. You know, it won't happen to me...., and who can blame them given the cost, and lack of efficasy. Like the web page on Bells site says, in the western region there have been zero serious burn injuries/fires(Earnhardt Jr. I suppose would be the exception), but multiple deaths from heart attack, and heat stroke...

Dave, do you know what it costs to run the test @Delphi? I would imagine that a joint effort by the sanctioningbodies could easily foot the bill by forgoing a couple of christmas parties/end of year celebrations, etc.

Carl

christaylor

Aside from a right side net... nothing. But, with as close as both nets are (gotta love poor fitting bolt-ins... ) it's not as much of an issue as it is with some cars. Probably won't save my neck, but it's better than nothing.

When my EP car gets built, I'll be making an aluminum seat with side wings (along with leg wings, and a bunch of insulation!)

Carl Byck

Butler makes a really substantial aluminum seat(head supports are ~1" thick wall 6061 with ~3" of high density foam), I am not sure if the side support on the Ultrashield road race is enough, but its's ~600.00. That's the best priced seat I've found with signifigant side impact protection. I think the circle track places have quite a few choices.

rceron

I recently spoke with Nick at N-Tech Engineering in Fl and he mentioned that they will begin distributing Racetech seats for the FD. These are supposidely the same seats that are installed with the Competition Viper from the factory.

R

tims

If you go to my racing website there is a story(by me) of my friend who was killed driving a race car in a club event at a track with lots of run off areas. He crashed(single car) at the slowest corner and was killed instantly. You do not need to achieve 100 plus mph to be killed in a race car. simple physics can give you the g-numbers. Dale Earnhardt was killed in the same manner and at about the same velocity and g loads as my friend(some where around 45mph). A seat with head and neck protection would likely have saved his life. A HANS or other device may have helped. None of these products would have put his life in jeopardy. They all would have been there in case something happend. So of the arguments just don't hold up. Can I stop wearing my fireproof driving suit if I feel I will never be involved in a fire, no. I have never rolled a car on the track so the roll cage can be ommited for the car. There are certain price of admission items for all types of sports and racing is no exception. I hope that in a few years or sooner people will look at head and neck restaint seats and devices as racers look at helmets, suits, and roll cages now. No one would propose to run a race series where drivers were allowed to race without helmets, driving suits, a roll cages. My suggestion to everyone. Order a HANS(it will be required next year in several sanctioning bodies) and look at buying a Racetech or Recaro seat with head restaints. I prefer the Racetech and feel it is by far the best seat you can buy, but the recaro will work well also. None of this is cheap but when you are injured or dead your family would have happily spent the money. In the mean time properly install the right side net and check seats for damage and proper installation.link to story
http://www.realride.com/news/viewnew...2236930,41073,
I personally have a Racetech seat and a HANS device. I have run two 3 hour enduros with this setup and I found I like the setup much better than the way I had the car before. the seat hold my head steady all the time and reduces strain on my neck and as far as the HANS device is concerned the only time I notice it is when I am putting on my helmet. Once I am in the car I don't even know its on. Wear it get used to it and make sure the belts and seat setup are installed correctly. good luck and be safe.

DaveB

Carl,

Yes, I do know what it costs, and it is significant. It would be my opinion that sanctioning bodies would not be interested in putting up the funds to test a system that would be marketed by a private enterprise.

Also, consider the possibility of individuals associated with sanctioning bodies being connected to individuals associated with restraint systems and the picture gets really cloudy. Understand that there are millions of dollars at stake here, and those who already have a huge investment will protect their investment. The lobbying efforts have been fast at work in the past, and will continue in the future.

I don't feel that this is an issue that will go away any time soon. I will not take my car on the track without my system in place, and hope that others will consider their safety as a serious matter as well. It doesn't matter what your system of choice is, just be sure that you have one.

cagedruss

I to sell the Racetech Seat. Though my shop shop name is the same as the Seat manufacturer, we are not the same. I have installed them in some drag and Rally cars. Very nice but the seats are over $1000 each.

Also, check out Oregon Regions "Loud Pedal" SCCA Mag. Our Regional Executive did and User test on the R3. Read a first hand view of the new product. Click on the small August icon below the big one, big one linked to last months issue still. Page 17 and 18 for the article. http://www.oregonscca.com/loudpedal/loudped.html

Carl Byck

THAT is EXCITING. I really am starting to think we have a winner here. I will be calling these guys and having a talk about testing the device. At ~900-1000.00 it is not cheap, but it seems to have several extremely important advantages over the Hans. The Angular protection, and the lack of reliance of the device to stay in ones belts being two big ones. I was especially glad to hear that a driver my size, and one twice my size were able to wear the device without any discomfort, in fact, they claim they did not even know it was there. The drivers were in a small rally car, so the propensity for the device to move around and dig in is large. This coupled with the fact that it can easily be used for multiple drivers, is a neat deal. I cannot over emphasive the downside of not having proper side support in your car, while this does not eliminate that need, it appears it will help a great deal in angular impacts as most of our cars are already cionfigured, ie little in the way of side restraint. Let's keep this going with more links to racer reviews moving forward. Thanks guys, Carl Byck

cagedruss

If anybody is interested in the R3, Model 2. PLease contact my friend Charles at Safedrives . He has opened a Internet store and will soon be opening up a NW shop that can provide all the last safety gear. Trying to keep it local if you know what I mean. He is a racer also, tell him Racetech refered him.

Link to the August issue of "The Loud Pedal" has been corrected also.

Cheers!

What about running nets around both the left and right side of the driver's head?

tims

the left side net is already on your window, or should be anyway. the right side net is very effective and I would consider this a good entry level/ stop gap modification while your new seat is on order or lay away. It has been tested and does work effectively just not to the G levels that can be experienced.