gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Rookie season is 2011. I need a lap timer minimum but am considering Data Acquisition. When I raced karts many moons ago, I used a MyChron with a beacon. On test days, I set it up to get split times which was a great learning experience. For race or quali, I would leave it in regular full lap mode. Now I see that the industry seems to have progressed to predictive lap timing and such - which seems pretty damn cool.


My high level wants include:
- easily read Lap Timer display - preferably with Best Lap, Current Lap and Prediction
- ability to set split laps for testing
- Post lap analysis software - I think I like the idea of being able to see that can show me when I am on the brakes, throttle position, lap comparisons


Just from looking at the various vendor web sites (Traqmate, RLC and Racepak), I am leaning toward the RLC. It has everything I want plus a very slick display unit. The display unit on the Traqmate seems too small to read at speed on track which is the biggest negative I can seen regarding that system. The Racepak, I haven't been able to find as much good info.


I'm looking for input/comments from users of these systems. Preferably from those that have used more than one.

Thanks.

SHPNOUT

iTrader: (3)

All good things to have. From a drivers standpoint, most usable is the predictive timer. With that you know immediately if a different line has gotten you faster then your previous lap.

As for data, go with what is most prevelent in the class. Sharing of data is invaluable, especially when starting out. Most club racers will share data, and few things will get you up to speed faster.

That said, GPS units are great. No beacons to deal with, you get lap times right on the money, and data. I use and share data with Fingerlock from a Race technologies DL1. I think most Miata guys in SF region are using the AIM units.

Of course the ulitmate set up is an all in one dash, data, video etc. $$$. Keep us posted on what you decided to go with.

Brent Dalton

iTrader: (31)

I currently have the traqmate. I seriously considered the racepak dash/data acquisition, but it's not as user friendly/easy to use as the traqmate IMO. The other major factor, as Niles said, was that 90% of the people in the Southeast uses traqmate because they are based out of Georgia and have great track support. We have a pretty good size email group/list that is constantly passing data around and analyzing and discussing it. As you said, the display is kind of small. I'm hoping they release a full display within the next couple of years. There are a few things you can set it to. I normally have mine on lap timer. It will display the lap time for 10 seconds after I cross the line and then go to the lap timer. At the bottom portion of the display, it will show you how much faster or slower you are from previous laps. They sell everything individually, but nothing packaged together in a full display. For instance, I can log air/fuel and oil pressure(for the V8) and display them on the HD video so in the event I blow an engine, the sensors and data are synched with the video so I can see exactly what happened and where.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

I would recommend a GPS based unit. At least in the Midwest, timing is discouraged from non-sanctioned racing events (i.e. DE's). With that, most of those types of venues won't let you stick beacons around. GPS units allow you to skip the beacon and still get your timing information not matter what type of event you are at.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

If you want to IMPROVE as a driver the minimum data ack I would consider would be-

Steering angle
brake pressure fnt/rear
track mapping
throttle position
wheelspeed fnt/rear

Now, I KNOW what your going to say is, why do I need all this when the GPS unit can calculate speeds and do track mapping, the accelerometer will calculate accel and decel, yada yada for the all-in-one easy install units. Well, thats true, but that will only marginally help you improve as a driver, rookie or not. I think the biggest mistake is someone who thinks "Well I am a rookie so all I really need is an idea of whats going on, I will add more later". I personally disagree with this statement ona lot of levels. First, you are out there to learn, and the more information you have, the more you are going to learn and the less chance you will learn bad habits. It also keeps you from having to rely on your memory as to what you did in what corner.

Now as to why you need the above inputs-

Steering angle- and this needs to be taken from the steering rack or steering shaft directly. This will show you your actual steering inputs and will define exactly what you did where.

Brake Pressure- Very important, as drivers tend to fool themselves and think they are applying more or less brake than they really are. Extremely useful when analyzing various corner entries vs each other, and helps to show if the driver is coasting through corners.

Throttle angle- absolutely important, as drivers again tend to forget how much throttle they are using. I have asked drivers how much throttle they had on X corner exit, they said FLAT but the data showed 50 or 60 percent. Overlayed vs braking force through corners you can often find yourself "coasting" which is lap time lost and opens up a passing opportunity.

Wheelspeed- often overlooked, this is very important if you are running a restricted tire class, as traction, especially on corner exit, is your best friend. Overlaying fnt wheelspeeds vs rear wheelspeeds vs TP vs steering angle will allow you to determine if you are on the throttle too early or late, if you have to much angle for the corner, etc.

Track mapping- GOS is useful, but the three axis accelerometer properly mounted and calibrated provides more information. Overlayed with the above parameters you can determine if the car is sliding, the line through a corner one lap vs another, and what worked vs what did as changes are made.

Over the years I have used many different data ack systems, some really good and some a large PITA. If you have the budget, its MOTEC I would choose, otherwise STACK is my next choice as the easiest to expand and install with thier modular system. I really like the AIM Mychron Gold XG Log, as it provides the inputs you need at a very attractive price. There is one in the FC race car and it works very well. The Pista is also a nice unit, but it is a tick more money. I also really like the AIM Smartycam as well as the STACK version of it. A lot of the Porsche guys are using Traqmate, but its not one of my favorites.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Which tracks? I know here in Colorado there are no issues at all with placing beacons even on open track days, and its been the same experience for me at every other track I have been to across the country. The GPS based units are OK, but for actual times laps that provide enough accuracy give me a beacon every time.

SHPNOUT

iTrader: (3)

Walker is on the money. A couple of "Poor man's data" easy short cuts can help a lot as well.

I have a "full throttle" light on my dash. When I am flat it lights up. It's very useful. When I first started using it I was amazed how often I was not "flat" when I thought I was. The light is an easy indicator as it shows up well on video. It's a simple pressure switch on a bracket at the go pedal. I did wire the voltage signal from the TPS to the DL1 but haven't got it sorted as of yet.

I also have a brake "on" indicator wired into my DL1 harness. Simple on/off input from the brake light switch.

jrx13

iTrader: (3)

I'm interested in the wheelspeed sensors? Looking for ideas. I know there is the collar mount for driveshaft? Do you use a collar mount on the rear axles? As long as the wire doesnt get caught up in anything I guess this would work.

What do you use with the front wheels? Proximity sensor and a bolt head? Each sensor you have to program the revolutions or something right and the formula changes when you change tire size correct?

And about RLC, those units look really good but only thing is you'll be learning the system pretty much on your own. There is not many people running their systems and they are pretty new so not much user support base yet but maybe in the future. Not necessarily a bad point, just one to remember.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Really depends on the carand your DA system. On most IRS cars I use the CV axle bolts OR a metal "tab" (if the rear axle for some reason does not have an axle flange and bolts) at the diff and just make a bracket to hold the sensor in positon.
For the front I really try and use the wheel lugs and mount the sensor in the upright.

I try to never use the OEM ABS ring, as it simply has sooo many teeth the sensor needs to be very accurately positioned. Some DA systmes also have issues processing so many teethper rotation.

Generically you only need to input tire circumference if you are looking for vehicle speed. When comparing fnt vs rr wheelspeeds I am looking for a difference in rpm, not nec the vehicles speed, as the difference in rpm indicates wheelspin.

Put a decent data ack system in a car and it will surprise you how you drive vs how you think you drive.


EDIT- also, while it is very cool to buy your sensors etc. from the manufacturer and I support those guys tryingto do business, some of this stuff is ridiculous. Wheelspeed sensors- Hall and Mag, string pots, linear pots, temp probes, pressure sensors, etc. can all be had from various industrial electronic suppliers for good to great pricing, so LOOK before you buy, and educate yourself on what the sensors are and do if you want to add cost effective to the list.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Thanks all for the input thus far.

I had forgotten about the Race technologies DL1 and the AIM. Odd since I used a MyChron when I raced karts. Must be getting old. Memory is fading...

I'm going to look into the MyChron that DWalker mentioned and the DL1. I agree that I'd like all the inputs that DWalker mentioned for the reasons he mentioned.


Brett - What do you think of the Traqmate's display unit? Is it legible at speed on track?



Comparing / Sharing data

Niles touched on this point and I wanted some more info from you guys on the topic of sharing data. I hear that concept all over various forums but I don't fully understand the benefits. I would think that it could be useful IF you are comparing to a faster driver. If you aren't, then I'd question the usefulness of the data. Am I supposed to walk up to the guy in P1-P5 and expect him to share their data? Is that realistic?

jrx13

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I'm always on the lookout for cheap sensors. I have a Racepak G2X. You can run any sensors the only thing is you need the calibration chart which they seem to like to hide. I do have access to proximity sensors but I think you need a certain "speed rating" or something? Not too sure on this stuff, I'm no electrical expert.

So on a FC with IRS, what your saying is fab a bracket that hangs down and mounts a proximity sensor facing the bolts/nuts on the inboard cv joint coming out of the differential? That sounds good. I was thinking about using oem ABS rings and maybe cutting some of the teeth out but maybe this way is easier.

I came up with a cheap solution for FC steering angle sensor. You can search it on this forum. I'm still on the lookout for cheap pressure sensors (for the brakes) with their calibration charts handy.

Brent Dalton

iTrader: (31)

Mine sits on the top of my dash right at eye level and I don't have any issues seeing anything on the display. Overall, I'm happy with it. The lap times and predictive lap timer is all I want from my display. Niles pressure switches sounds pretty cool. Very simple and effective. Everything else gets downloaded after a session or that night to check out. Don't know if you ever played with the traqmate software(traqview), but you can download it for free and I can send you some of my data if you want to see what the traqmate has to offer. Not the best picture:




You know, the majority of people that I've asked to share data have. Most of them are people that I know from the track that I run with on a regular basis. I have encountered a few people who don't share data for whatever reason. I can understand the competitive part though(which I think is the reason most of the time for not sharing data... they feel like they'll give up their "edge").

jrx13

iTrader: (3)

Also Traqmate is coming out with a larger display unit. It's expensive though but you can always upgrade the system in steps. (same thing with a lot of the different brands)

http://store.traqmate.com/Pre-Order-...-p/1920102.htm

gkmccready

I love my AiM MXL Pista. I actually have two harnesses, one wired to my Corvette (street/track) and one in my RX7 (race) so I can move it to whichever I'm taking to the event. The track mapping with GPS is great, predictive lap for qualifying/time trials, lots of data inputs, etc, etc. I'm planning to combine it with a SmartyCam to do video even though the SmartyCam can also work standalone.

Rule #1 for any of these boxes -- get the software and make sure you can actually use it to see the data you care about. I found I could get what I wanted from the AiM software but I struggled with the RaceTechnologies DL1 software. The TraqMate was okay but nobody I knew locally was using one.

TC Design recommended the AiM so I jumped on it since they would share a bit of data and help me when I got stuck...

Brent Dalton

iTrader: (31)

Woot woot! Don't like that it's touchscreen, but I'll be picking one of these up most likely.

gkmccready

Friends. You can learn from faster and slower drivers -- slower doesn't mean slower everywhere. I swapped data with a guy recently that runs Thunderhill. I shared a 2:07 "over the top" lap with him, he shared a 1:55 "with bypass" lap with me. We both learned from each others data. He's on big Hoosiers, I'm on much smaller R888s, and I was carrying the same speed he was through the high speed stuff -- and he was kicking my butt through the low speed. He learned he was giving up too much in the high speed and I learned I needed to push a bit more in the low speed (and see if I really am on the verge of understeer like it feels). There was more, but that's a simple example...

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

We're running the mychron too, it seems to do a good job, with a couple of little foibles.

We've logged shock position and speed, which was pretty simple.

We've also logged steering angle, brake pressure (the sensor was still $), tps, etc. At first glance we learned some stuff, but digging deeper we found that people write big thick textbooks about how to interpret data.

For instance. The track has width, so if you take a lap on the inside and a lap on the outside, the turns won't match up, because there are different distances to get there.

When you add different drivers into the mix, it gets worse

Not saying don't do it, but it is helpful to keep it simple

gkmccready

Going GPS really helps this issue a lot [with the AiM stuff]. The only trick is making sure whoever you're sharing with is using the same GPS configuration for S/F...

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Agree in checking out software prior to purchase.

I think you will really like the XG log, especially if you do not already have a dash or are using a stock dash as in the Spec Miata. If you are using an aftermarket ECU such as the AEM, Haltec, Motec, etc. the AIM logger can recieve and display data from the ECU via can or serial (RS232) communication. This saves you needing to wire in a bunch of sensors, such as TPS, coolant temp, etc. In fact, the AEM will allow you to wire in Fuel Pressure, Oil pressure/Temperature etc. sensors which it will also record on its internal log in addition to feeding it to the dash. Lots of really cool stuff out there these days, unlike even just a few years ago.
I also think you should really look at the Stack ST8100 series which can be had with the predictive lap timer and will tie in and work with thier data logging system, which is modular and easy to add to as you need to, including the video option. It IS more expensive than the AIM, but the prices have come down somewhat.

All of the sensors I buy from electronic suppliers, robotics outlets, or industrial supply have come with very nice dats sheets. In a pinch, it is fairly easy to bench calibrate virtually any sensor.

SHPNOUT

iTrader: (3)

In a "spec" class, the difference in speed between cars is less then the difference in driver talent, at least in theory. Your spec miata with 117 hp should/could be as fast as the the other spec maita with 117 hp. All things being equal the driver is the only varible. If you are 3 seconds slower then your competitor look at his data. See his line, overlay yours, see where he brakes, overlay yours, adapt and go faster. Comparable drivers can learn from each other as well by comparing sector times.

The data is easy to get. Yes, ask. You will quickly fall in with drivers who will become friends. Sharing data helps that cause.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Heartland and MAM mainly. Unless it's a "test & tune" day for SCCA, they typically don't allow them. Granted, it's been a while since I was at either, but the last HPT DE I attended several people were not allowed to put out beacons.

Brent Dalton

iTrader: (31)

Yep, that's consist with most DE organizations due to insurance policies. Once timing takes place, the insurance companies consider it a time trial or race and it nullifies the insurance contract that would protect the organization hosting the DE if an incident did occur. NASA and SCCA's insurance include racing so it obviously isn't an issue.

Kind of unrelated, but kind of merging both... I ran with an organization that put AMB transponders on all the novice cars. The lap times were available after each session. For me as an instructor, it was awesome! It's hard to get a novice to believe that, while a lap might feel slower(because they are being smoother), it often times is faster. This small, minute piece of data allowed the student to see a quantified result and immediately put to rest that "his way" is faster.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

We use the Racepak IQ3 and have had good experience with it. Does everything you're looking for and lots of bells and whistles on top of the standard features you're wanting.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

I forgot about that friends part Since I'm still relatively new to Cali, I have gotten so used to going to track days alone and not knowing anyone.

I now get how comparing data would be a helpful learning experience. Thanks.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

For anyone who cares - I found a deal on a used DL1 and bought it. Installing it this weekend. Should be an interesting learning experience.
Thanks.