RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

It was never the rotors that gassed. And they may not as much on your average street car. But road racing will gas pads no mater what they are made of. All pads still have a binding compound that gasses under some conditions...

All the newer compounds that are used to replace esbestos gas more now from what I have heard.

its66

iTrader: (2)

I run Hawkes also, but I usually use the HT-10's up front and blues in the rear. Wilwood bias valve(lever style). Stock FC big brakes front and rear. Braided lines. AP600 fluid. No problems for me, even Sebring Short course.

HT-10's seem to have a higher friction coefficient. They seem to have a little higher intial bite than the blues, or some other pads. With smooth pedal application, you will find yourself over slowed and waiting for the corner, until you get used to them.

Typical life under racing conditions-4 weekends out of the front pads-7-8 out of the rear. 7-10 weekends on the front rotors(depending on the track) I haven't replaced the rear rotors yet-so i can't comment on that.

If you try the HT-10's, be careful first time in the riain.

Jim

Carl Byck

I guess my biggest beef with Hawks is Rotor destruction. I can go a year(~12-16 track days plus AX) on a set of rotors pl;us ~12,000 miles of street driving. Then theyjust need to be turned, and do it again. Try that with Hawks... Carbotechs are ~180.00 for the fronts

RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

I swap the fronts for hawk blues at the track. I never drive on the street with them. They don't eat cryo rotors too bad at all as long as you warm them up quickly. Then after the event I swap back to porterfield r4s before I pull onto the street.

edmcguirk

I've been happy with Hawk blacks. I've never felt the need to go to the blues in my ITS 87.

I actually like the grabbyness of the Hawks. They taught me to be very soft and steady with the brakes. With other pads like Porterfields, I had a tendency to stab the brakes a little harder at the end of the brake zones - bad habit.

I had no problems in the 4 hour endurance races at Summit Point.

However although I do not drive the car much on the street, I do drive the car to the track instead of trailering it. Because of that the disks are done in the same time the pads are done. I have to replace them as a set yearly.

Lately I have been experimenting with the blacks in front and blues in rear to give a little more bite to the rear brakes. I haven't decided if it's good yet.

ed

Carl Byck

The hawks cerainly have their place in motorsports, just not my favorite.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

If you track your car, STAY AWAY from cross-drilled and/or slotted rotors. There is NO reason for them anymore at all except for looking cool on a street car. If you track your car with either cd or slotted rotors and you're not a ***** on the brakes, your rotors will crack, plain and simple. I've cracked both types, front and rear. Not to mention that drilling/slotting them reduces the overall contact area between the rotor and pad and argueably shortens pad life.

I've found the best solution to be one that AWR offers.
http://www.awrracing.com/pages/rx/rxbrakes.html
For about $100 more initally per rotor over the typical price for stock or other companies cd/slotted rotors (racers get stock rotors for $70 through Mazdaspeed...hard to beat that) you can have two piece rotors (rotor and aluminum hat). Then, when the time comes to replace the rotors, you only replace the rotor (not the hat) and the price for those is less than stock/cd/slotted rotors from other sources. The rotors themselves are also better designed than anything else you can simply bolt onto your car without spending megabucks and are 3 lbs. lighter than stock to help reduce unsprung weight.
You can even cryo the rotors for roughly $30-$40 somewhere locally. The place I use locally charges $9.00 a pound and turns them around in a day or two. Well worth it.

The front calipers on the fc/fd are excellant units. Simply upgrade the pads to whatever know-it-all recommends. I like Hawks (hps/street and blues/track) as they are the best bang for the buck imho. I'll back up what others have said through my own experiences in that the blacks and especially blues have an appetite for rotors and should not be used in any case on the street. Cryo-treating the rotors does help reduce wear from what I've experienced, but I still won't run blues or blacks on the street with them.
There are better pads out there for sure, but you'll pay for them.

btw, this is on my 380rwhp (perhaps 410+ next week ) 3200lb. daily driven vert that is in my sig.

Thanks for a great link.

RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

I guess I'll continue to support slotted as long as I dont crack one. I realy think it helps prevent gassing and pad smear. The reduction in contact area is neglidgable IMHO. I personally have the 3 short slot pattern which, I would guess helps prevent cracking over one long continuous slot.

01Racing

I am from Ontario Canada and we race on 2 tracks here. I run the regional series which is our version of SCCA regional racing. The car has hawk blue pads all the way around with STOCK rotors and STOCK Turbo II/GXL calipers. I dont have any problem with wear or fade, pads last me a 6 race season, and rotors would probably go 2 seasons. We run 4 race weekends at Mosport (long sweeping track on 2 high speed brake applications per lap, and Shannonville, 10 turns hard braking for 7 of those corners. The hawk blues are awesome!

JerryLH3

iTrader: (11)

I had always wondered if somebody did these for the FC, but never bothered to look. Too bad I just put new rotors on the TII. I now know what the next set will be. Thanks for the link!

Carl Byck

Keep in mind, less mass, equal less ability to disipate heat. These are designed for EP cars weighing ~2300lbs. I have a near full weight Fc /~450rwhp, I think I'll stick with stock. I will call AWR, but so far each time I have called on a part of my project we have been in agreement. Carl

SPiN Racing

Nicely put... and not being contrary or anything..

I think something important in your general feeling on the blues... They dont work for you.. for the reasons you mentioned..
Many like them..

Myself.. they fit my braking style nicely.. /shrug
Some people may drive differently.. and many will brake differently.

Track days will require different braking use than full race days.... for example.. IF... IF youre lucky.. you may be able to make 2-3 full 10/10ths laps on a track DAY... the rest of the time.. you will be On it for a few corners.. then being nice for a couple going through traffic.. then on it again.. etc.
Race laps? Basically 10/10ths.. Yep if you run into slower traffic you may hit 9/10ths.. but not really.. then the people behind you are at 10/10ths and will catch up. Soo Find a passing spot

Basically.. everyone will have different tastes on braking and budgets...

I know a close friend does track days with a 1st gen... He runs HP+.. and they last.. and the rotors last............ But he doesnt brake as aggressively as I do. Sooooo The brakes dont last for me like they do for him. He goes fast.. but not as fast.... not to say I am fast.. cause I know a lot that are MUCH MUCH faster here in the SE. But.. again.. everyone will have different requirements.

I would think... try something "cheaper" and see if it works for you. If it doesnt.. re-evaluate from there.


My biggest piece of advice for those doing dual duty... SPEND THE CASH..... Get a set of rotors and pads for the track.. and have a set for street... if you are gonna be real serious about braking like a monster.. and going to work every day. Then you can change em out.. hit the track.. and change em out and go back to work.

Or just do what soo many have.... but a 500 buck beater FC and then make a real serious car for the track... and dont worry about dual purpose.

RETed

Dude, if you're serious about racing, I'd expect the rotors to be replaced annually.


-Ted

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

If you are implying that the two piece designed rotors will not disappate heat as well as stock rotors because they have less mass, that would be wrong. These rotors simply outperform and outlast stock rotors with my high powered 3200+lb. car from my experience. The vents are better designed and those will do more to disappate heat than more mass would of a similiar sized rotor. Besides, the extra mass of the stock rotor is from the hat, not the rotor itself. If the mass was from a larger diameter rotor that would be another story, but the rotors AWR supplies are also slighltly larger in diameter. Furthermore, aluminum (as with the rotor hats) disappates heat better than steel.

Carl, if you are racing and insist on using stock rotors it seems silly to turn them when they can be had for so cheap through Mazdacomp (around $70). Remember, more mass disappates more heat and thin rotors are no good in any case

Aslo, I pm'd you my number so call me about tuning....

RoadRaceJosh

Why buy rotors from Mazda for $70 when you can get Brembo rotors for $60 from The Tire Rack? Any particular reason?

You can buy Raybestos 5 lug front brake rotors from rockauto.com for $15.35 each plus shipping.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

He said he'd stick to stock rotors so I was just stating what they could be had for afaik.
$15.00 is awfully cheap. Just more of a reason not to have used rotors turned. Then again, I wonder about the quality of them.
In any case, I'll stick with the relatively cheap two-piece design.

Carl Byck

Well, because I race costs are very important, but I will not skimp on something that effects the performance, if I can help it. Not sure how you can be so sure that the AWR pieces are better than stock(other than unsprung weight), for example, a stock braked MKIV Supra will outbrake a 14" StopTech Supra for the first 5-8 laps, then they are even, and then the StopTechs take over once you get a bunch of heat in the whole system(~8-10 laps at T Hill). I guess I just have seen so many performance brake set-ups that do not work as well as stock, that I am a bit of a sceptic. I'd say everything has a trade off, and brakes are a very personal thing. whatever works for you, ya know... anyhow, I sent you a PM on tuning, I have two or three really good guys that I am looking at, I will call you. Carl

RoadRaceJosh

$15 is cheap and rockauto.com is about the cheapest palce I've found, but you do have to pay shipping on that chunk of cast iron. It's Raybestos brand stuff so it shouldn't be Chinese iron, but I'd double check to be sure.

At this point I can't afford to spend what $400 to save 3-4 lbs unsprung weight per corner? I'm having a house built so I'm expecting quite a chunk of change to go into curtains, funiture, landscaping, etc. I have $14,000 sitting in the bank, but it's for the down payment and closing costs. So the FC sits and waits for whatever trickles down.

Speedtoy

If it has ANY street driving..it has to have a street pad, unless you like swapping pads, and sanding rotors a lot.

So..its a Porterfield R4-S pad...IMHO. There are other options, but since youre shopping for a crossover pad, there will be adjustments you may need to accept in how to drive/brake the car on a racetrack, afterall, youre not racing, and you already know how to use the brake pedal..concentrate on the steering and eyeball-on-target stuff, and trainin' yer brain.

Its abrasive temp doesnt really exist as its happy ambient, and its adhesive temp reaches 900 easy, and can see limited temps to 1200d. The more you abuse em..the more they dust which can be either good or "normal" depending how you drive. But the dust will NEVER glue to, or harm your wheels or ride. Very very easy on rotors as well.

Most race pads are very abrasive below 250d face-to-face temperature, then they start to transition to adhesive. Race pads never used hot very much, are likely to chunk and fail as well.

My initial rx7 club-racer pricing:

Porterfield R4-S:
Front: $71+S&H MSRP=80
Rear: $64+S&H MSRP=70

Hawk Blue spec pads:
Front: $86+S&H MSRP=$105
Rear: $79+S&H MSRP=$95

Find me 10 people for -any- combination of the above parts, remove another 5%.

That could be 2 people buying five boxes each, 10 buying fronts only..just 10 of any of that.

Of coruse, any other Hawk, PFC, Raybestos (race only compounds) are available..

I do this for the clubs..it supports my racing..thats it.

Speedtoy

racers get stock rotors for $70 through Mazdaspeed...hard to beat that
---
We are talking front first gen rotors..right??

I'll confirm what my porterfield pricing is tomorrow, just bought four more rotors yesterday..not that I keep track of my cost that I can recall at 1am..but $70?? My goodness, how can you NOT get cheaper than that?


) you can have two piece rotors (rotor and aluminum hat). Then, when the time comes to replace the rotors, you only replace the rotor (not the hat) and the price for those is less than stock/cd/slotted rotors from other sources. The rotors themselves are also better designed than anything else you can simply bolt onto your car without spending megabucks and are 3 lbs. lighter than stock to help reduce unsprung weight.
You can even cryo the rotors for roughly $30-$40 somewhere locally. The place I use locally charges $9.00 a pound and turns them around in a day or two. Well worth it.
---
If you arent class restricted, 2pc usually is a much better option..yep!

Speedtoy

Try again, every two race days I have at least one thats trash.

jgrewe

iTrader: (1)

So if I can only afford two events a year that would be annually! We're getting ready to replace ours(EProd FC) after about 8 track hours but they were cryo'd.

CodyHokieFD

I feel like there is so much information in this thread about brakes that my head is going to explode. I need to re-read this like 10 times before I buy

Carl Byck

Serious racing demands that you learn to save your equipment, many a race has been lost because of equipment that was used up by overly aggressive, not neccesarily fast driving. Fast drivers are often much easier on equipment than the slightly slower ones. Breaking later, but harder is usually the slow way around, sometimes it can v=be as fast, but you will wear out your equipment before your competition. Not saying that is the case with all the guys speaking of going through brakes every couple days, but I can get ten weekends out of my Supras brakes plus ~8-10,000 street miles. The car weighs ~3600+lbs, and I am turning sub 2:10 at T'hill in it on three year old V700s. If you ever watch the on board telemetry on a race car with an accomplished driver, you will see less braking than a mediocre one. Late hard braking is for passing, it is the slow way around the track, and the fast way to burn up your equipment. If you are replacing brakes out of neccessity after two races(in an RX7), you have a problem IMHO. Anyway, that's just my experience, and opinion. I hope to see you all at the track soon, my track car will be tuned by mid july, and I will be at about every NASA/green flag/speedventures/etc event thereafter. carl

jgrewe

iTrader: (1)

After 8 hrs of track time.----Checked the rotors today, rears are fine, fronts are marginal. We had some problems with a Tilton bias adjuster that took almost all the pressure away from the rears until we gave up messing with it. We removed the bias adjuster and the cars stock set-up is pretty good until it rains! The bias problem led to an early demise of the front rotors. Just looking at them now I'd bet they would last 20 hrs on the track no problem with all the brakes working correctly.

For sale Tilton bias adjuster------cheap!
I'll just have to dig it out of the trash