Power FC NGK wideband and Datalogit - anyone tried yet?
12-04-06, 08:56 AM
#26
RX-7 Bad Ass
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I added a downpipe bung to the very end of my downpipe before I had it Jet-Hot coated, so it's ready for a wideband. Considering I have a high-flow cat, I wanted it before the cat, and I really hated to hack up my SUPER nice SMB high-flow cat to add a bung on that part of the piping.
Hopefully someday there will be a good-looking wideband display that doesn't look like an intro to electronics science experiment.
Dale
Hopefully someday there will be a good-looking wideband display that doesn't look like an intro to electronics science experiment.
Dale
12-04-06, 05:53 PM
#27
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Where is a proper placement of the wideband sensor? and where is a good place for egt 
(not being a smart ***, i really want to know, I am about to get the afx (price, plus its ngk, cant really go wrong here..) + pineapple racing dual egt, i am running n/a..)
(not being a smart ***, i really want to know, I am about to get the afx (price, plus its ngk, cant really go wrong here..) + pineapple racing dual egt, i am running n/a..)
12-04-06, 07:49 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by rynberg
All you guys so worried about temps affecting the sensor should just put the wideband bung in the proper place.
Gee thanks... very constuctive comment.
my parts of these discussion's have been based around PLX's promotion technique of misleading information and attemps to discredit they're competion vs really having a superior product.
Mechanic, the AFX seems to be a top notch unit plus it allowes for installation specific calibration which in my book is worth its weight in gold. the only thing I don't like about they're product is that they don't allow you to manipulate the 0-5v output. as for placement, they have installation instructions on they're site.
the EGT's should be placed as close to the exh. ports as possible, its also critical to get them as centered in the port as possible.
12-05-06, 02:09 AM
#29
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The wideband sensor should be placed at the end of the downpipe or beginning of midpipe.
If it is placed correctly, it doesn't matter who's wideband you use and you don't have to mess around with heat-sinking and all that crap. Sometimes I think people go out of their way to create more trouble for themselves, especially FD owners.
If it is placed correctly, it doesn't matter who's wideband you use and you don't have to mess around with heat-sinking and all that crap. Sometimes I think people go out of their way to create more trouble for themselves, especially FD owners.
12-05-06, 03:59 PM
#30
FYI, my latest email exchange with PLX is below.
...Dec 2, 2006 8:43 PM
...there has been some discussion on the Rx7 forum concerning the use of a heat sink for the sensor housing at temperature above 550C (as required by Innovate).
A member pointed out that in their LSU spec sheet Bosch specifies operating temperatures at the hexagon of the sensor housing of no more than 570C http://wbo2.com/lsu/Y258K01005e03mar21eng.pdf
page 5
Since both PLX and Innovate use the same LSU Bosch sensor, how to reconcile your positive statement that your system does not require an heat sink with the Bosch spec sheet?
Sandro...
...Dec 4, 2006 11:49 AM
Thank you for the email and I’m glad that you asked this question. Innovate uses a different technology than we do. They use a digital square pulse to send to the sensor to obtain it’s readings. The bosch sensor was designed to accept a current type of signal. By using the digital method, Innovate is able to manufacture their controllers less expensively with less components. However, this technology has it’s disadvandates. 1) constant requirement to recalibrate. 2) timing errors, thus requiring a heatsink to be installed above 550 EGT. This is something they don’t want a lot of people to know about.
Our products will function up to the specified temperature range of the sensor 850 deg C. We’ve also had reports of RX7 users going to 900 deg C with no problems with our products. Our systems do not require you to install a heatsink and does not require any calibration.
PLX Devices Inc...
...Dec 4, 2006 12:29 PM
Still, could you please explain how to reconcile the apparent contradiction with the Bosch spec sheet?
Bosch specifies operating temperatures at the hexagon of the sensor housing of no more than 570C.
Innovate recommends using a heat sink it temperatures at the housing may go beyond the operating limit specified by Bosch for their LSU.
Since both Innovate and PLX use the same LSU Bosch sensor, and with no heat sink the housing temperature could raise above 570C, I don't understand why does your system potentially allows operating the sensor housing at temperatures above Bosch specified operating temperature.
Sandro...
...Dec 5, 2006 1:17 PM
The Bosch datasheet says < 850 deg C EGT and 570 Deg C for housing temperature.
According to our field data, the bottom line is, our products do not fail at high EGT even in cases which exceed these safe limits recommended by the bosch data sheet. Our data shows that for the past 3 years of selling WB products, we have not had a single case of reported failure due to overheat of the sensor. This is a sample size of over 5000 units.
The technology which we employ to read the o2 sensor, according from customer feedback from users of both innovate and PLX users, is that PLX products are more heat resilient, and yes, even with the same sensor. This again is due to the technology we use which is not susceptible to “timing errors.” Our customers never had to install a heat sink for proper functionality. I hope this clear up some questions.
PLX Devices Inc.
...Dec 2, 2006 8:43 PM
...there has been some discussion on the Rx7 forum concerning the use of a heat sink for the sensor housing at temperature above 550C (as required by Innovate).
A member pointed out that in their LSU spec sheet Bosch specifies operating temperatures at the hexagon of the sensor housing of no more than 570C http://wbo2.com/lsu/Y258K01005e03mar21eng.pdf
page 5
Since both PLX and Innovate use the same LSU Bosch sensor, how to reconcile your positive statement that your system does not require an heat sink with the Bosch spec sheet?
Sandro...
...Dec 4, 2006 11:49 AM
Thank you for the email and I’m glad that you asked this question. Innovate uses a different technology than we do. They use a digital square pulse to send to the sensor to obtain it’s readings. The bosch sensor was designed to accept a current type of signal. By using the digital method, Innovate is able to manufacture their controllers less expensively with less components. However, this technology has it’s disadvandates. 1) constant requirement to recalibrate. 2) timing errors, thus requiring a heatsink to be installed above 550 EGT. This is something they don’t want a lot of people to know about.
Our products will function up to the specified temperature range of the sensor 850 deg C. We’ve also had reports of RX7 users going to 900 deg C with no problems with our products. Our systems do not require you to install a heatsink and does not require any calibration.
PLX Devices Inc...
...Dec 4, 2006 12:29 PM
Still, could you please explain how to reconcile the apparent contradiction with the Bosch spec sheet?
Bosch specifies operating temperatures at the hexagon of the sensor housing of no more than 570C.
Innovate recommends using a heat sink it temperatures at the housing may go beyond the operating limit specified by Bosch for their LSU.
Since both Innovate and PLX use the same LSU Bosch sensor, and with no heat sink the housing temperature could raise above 570C, I don't understand why does your system potentially allows operating the sensor housing at temperatures above Bosch specified operating temperature.
Sandro...
...Dec 5, 2006 1:17 PM
The Bosch datasheet says < 850 deg C EGT and 570 Deg C for housing temperature.
According to our field data, the bottom line is, our products do not fail at high EGT even in cases which exceed these safe limits recommended by the bosch data sheet. Our data shows that for the past 3 years of selling WB products, we have not had a single case of reported failure due to overheat of the sensor. This is a sample size of over 5000 units.
The technology which we employ to read the o2 sensor, according from customer feedback from users of both innovate and PLX users, is that PLX products are more heat resilient, and yes, even with the same sensor. This again is due to the technology we use which is not susceptible to “timing errors.” Our customers never had to install a heat sink for proper functionality. I hope this clear up some questions.
PLX Devices Inc.
Originally Posted by Sandro
I guess I want to follow up with PLX on this. Their claim is unequivocable - no heat sink required for the housing for temperatures above 550C. As you pointed out, how to reconcile this statement with the Bosch spec sheet?
12-06-06, 12:08 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by Sandro
Thank you for the email and I’m glad that you asked this question. Innovate uses a different technology than we do. They use a digital square pulse to send to the sensor to obtain it’s readings. The bosch sensor was designed to accept a current type of signal. By using the digital method, Innovate is able to manufacture their controllers less expensively with less components. However, this technology has it’s disadvandates. 1) constant requirement to recalibrate. 2) timing errors, thus requiring a heatsink to be installed above 550 EGT. This is something they don’t want a lot of people to know about.
Our products will function up to the specified temperature range of the sensor 850 deg C. We’ve also had reports of RX7 users going to 900 deg C with no problems with our products. Our systems do not require you to install a heatsink and does not require any calibration.
PLX Devices Inc....
Our products will function up to the specified temperature range of the sensor 850 deg C. We’ve also had reports of RX7 users going to 900 deg C with no problems with our products. Our systems do not require you to install a heatsink and does not require any calibration.
PLX Devices Inc....
first innovate does not require you to make a heat sink for egt's higher than 550...this claim by PLX makes no sense...the sensor pre heats to around 750 so why would the innovate not work above 550 EGT??? it does. LOL!! yes I bet they're system works up to 900 **** it will probably keep reading till the sensor melts down..because it uses the analog closed loop heater circut which will just shut off once the nearnst cell climbs above 800ish, the problem is that the pump cell will only be accurate while in its calibrated tempature and pressure. so great the plx will continue to throw numbers out even if the sensor is out of its range vs the innovate will throw an error code telling you that it's data is compromised.
Originally Posted by Sandro
The Bosch datasheet says < 850 deg C EGT and 570 Deg C for housing temperature.
According to our field data, the bottom line is, our products do not fail at high EGT even in cases which exceed these safe limits recommended by the bosch data sheet. Our data shows that for the past 3 years of selling WB products, we have not had a single case of reported failure due to overheat of the sensor. This is a sample size of over 5000 units.
The technology which we employ to read the o2 sensor, according from customer feedback from users of both innovate and PLX users, is that PLX products are more heat resilient, and yes, even with the same sensor. This again is due to the technology we use which is not susceptible to “timing errors.” Our customers never had to install a heat sink for proper functionality. I hope this clear up some questions.
PLX Devices Inc.
According to our field data, the bottom line is, our products do not fail at high EGT even in cases which exceed these safe limits recommended by the bosch data sheet. Our data shows that for the past 3 years of selling WB products, we have not had a single case of reported failure due to overheat of the sensor. This is a sample size of over 5000 units.
The technology which we employ to read the o2 sensor, according from customer feedback from users of both innovate and PLX users, is that PLX products are more heat resilient, and yes, even with the same sensor. This again is due to the technology we use which is not susceptible to “timing errors.” Our customers never had to install a heat sink for proper functionality. I hope this clear up some questions.
PLX Devices Inc.
1 instead of buiding in a self calibrating sytem they have simply left it up to factory cal done by bosch which bosch admits is a loose standard desighned to be used by the oem market for closed loop emmisions.
2 they run the heater in an analog close loop which is trouble free even if there is a problem.
I really wish they would just state what they're product is and stop trying to mislead people into thinking they some great miracle system and the competitors is a cheap knockoff when in fact the situation is the reverse.
03-22-08, 11:27 PM
#33
I'm in the market for a wideband. I tried to read all of this. I'm currently interested in getting an NGK wideband as it uses the nice NTK sensor. I have seen in the thread that it only goes to 16 AFR. Other than that GOOD point I think it's a fair wideband. Does anyone have any other input to be made? it's been two years since this thread has been in discussion (not debate). Let's hear any new FACTS or productive experience with the various kits. Thanks!
04-03-08, 03:09 AM
#35
I run the NTK setup in my FC. I have not tried to log with it yet. I run it about 10" back of the turbo outlet, right near the firewall. I have not had any temp related issues, and have used it on the car for almost a year now.
The display is a little bit big, but similar to the FJO display I had in my Fd. I don't like that the display goes to 2 decimal places...I have no need to see hundredths of a point flashing as I drive. I have actually thought of putting tape or something over that part of the display. I actually removed the sticker and then painted the whole display case black, as it was actually a red translucent color to begin with.
The calibration aspect makes me a bit nervous for some reason...it seems that a well engineered setup would be calibrated right out of the box...but perhaps I am looking at it wrong, and it is actually a superior setup. For the price, I doubt it.
Nevertheless, it seems to be working well and as near as I can tell, the readings are accurate, though I have not compared them to any other WBO2.
It does seem to be a bit slow to respond, it seems the display changes readings only a couple of times per second, whereas my FJO would change readings 2 or 3 times as quickly when AFR was moving considerably.
Still, I think for the money it can't be beat, and since I don't like round style displays for A/F, this limits choices.
The display is a little bit big, but similar to the FJO display I had in my Fd. I don't like that the display goes to 2 decimal places...I have no need to see hundredths of a point flashing as I drive. I have actually thought of putting tape or something over that part of the display. I actually removed the sticker and then painted the whole display case black, as it was actually a red translucent color to begin with.
The calibration aspect makes me a bit nervous for some reason...it seems that a well engineered setup would be calibrated right out of the box...but perhaps I am looking at it wrong, and it is actually a superior setup. For the price, I doubt it.
Nevertheless, it seems to be working well and as near as I can tell, the readings are accurate, though I have not compared them to any other WBO2.
It does seem to be a bit slow to respond, it seems the display changes readings only a couple of times per second, whereas my FJO would change readings 2 or 3 times as quickly when AFR was moving considerably.
Still, I think for the money it can't be beat, and since I don't like round style displays for A/F, this limits choices.
04-03-08, 10:15 PM
#36
Hey guys, I was reading through the Innovate LM-1 instructions to help my friend wire it up and it turns out that the LM-1 can use the NTK sensor. The LC-1 does not support the NTK sensor however, which makes sense because it is a significantly less expensive product.
06-12-09, 07:38 AM
#37
I just wanted to update for people. I have taken the plunge and got the NTK wideband. I personally love it right on top of my steering column! I'm very happy with it and have actually been doing just some road tuning with it and pulling fuel at idle. I'm hopefully going to hook it up to the dataloggit so I can obviously log some exact data for each cell.
06-12-09, 09:05 AM
#38
RX-7 Bad Ass
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I've now installed a few NGK widebands. Here's my take -
The NGK is really not designed for a permanent install, it's more designed for an engine tuner to easily install in the car and then remove when done tuning. The box display is pretty large and not terribly attractive. But, installation is a cinch - 2 wires, power and ground, then the output wire for logging.
The fact it only reads to 16:1 is a downside for sure. You do need to know how lean is lean sometimes when working on cruise areas and part-throttle.
It WILL overheat if you run it in the stock O2 sensor position, been there done that. Put a bung at the end of the downpipe and you're good all day long.
I'm a big fan of the Innovate LC-1 and DB gauge combo. It's now like $230 for that complete setup, you have a nice looking gauge, works great with the Datalogit, reliable as hell. I've had mine for 3 years, no problems at all.
Dale
The NGK is really not designed for a permanent install, it's more designed for an engine tuner to easily install in the car and then remove when done tuning. The box display is pretty large and not terribly attractive. But, installation is a cinch - 2 wires, power and ground, then the output wire for logging.
The fact it only reads to 16:1 is a downside for sure. You do need to know how lean is lean sometimes when working on cruise areas and part-throttle.
It WILL overheat if you run it in the stock O2 sensor position, been there done that. Put a bung at the end of the downpipe and you're good all day long.
I'm a big fan of the Innovate LC-1 and DB gauge combo. It's now like $230 for that complete setup, you have a nice looking gauge, works great with the Datalogit, reliable as hell. I've had mine for 3 years, no problems at all.
Dale
06-12-09, 10:42 AM
#39
I have mine just where the downpipe hits the horizontal plane.
Dale, here's a question for you. I can't seem to get the car to idle in the 12's. I've pulled fuel and even tried adjusting the lag times. I've only been able to get it to hick-up in the 11's and when it was there it was like 11.04. LMK your take...
Dale, here's a question for you. I can't seem to get the car to idle in the 12's. I've pulled fuel and even tried adjusting the lag times. I've only been able to get it to hick-up in the 11's and when it was there it was like 11.04. LMK your take...
06-13-09, 11:35 PM
#40
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The powerdex comes with the bosch sensor, so you might want to pick up an NTK (#24302) one if you go that route. I'm using it with the datalogit (using the delta between an3 and an4) and haven't had any issues.
Like Chuck said, it clips reading above 16, so if you want higher than that you should go a different route.
I installed mine in a faceplate below my radio (next to my turbo timer and my blitz sbc-r controler) and it is easy to see.
Like Chuck said, it clips reading above 16, so if you want higher than that you should go a different route.
I installed mine in a faceplate below my radio (next to my turbo timer and my blitz sbc-r controler) and it is easy to see.
09-04-09, 10:03 AM
#42
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
