DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

I'm FINALLY at the point where I can get a wideband for the car. Had to prioritize tires and brakes on the car first, now I can get back to the fun toys.

I've been searching and reading up on posts on widebands. I was keen on the AEM wideband, then saw people had problems with spiking when logging with the Datalogit. Not to mention AEM doesn't have a good track record with electronics and the RX-7...so that's out.

I'm also looking at the LC-1/XD-1 kit from Innovate. $399 retail, nice gauge, solid construction and design, and I've seen the Innovate stuff logs with the Datalogit nicely.

NGK came out with their own wideband a few months back, the Powerdex AFX. Since NGK and NTK are the same company, they have a LOT of background with the wideband. I've personally seen the unit, and it's very well built, quality connectors and wiring, etc. It DOES have a 0-5v linear logging output, so in theory it should work with the Datalogit. It's also under $300 brand new, which is a strong point.

Here's a thread on the Subie forum with pics and all the info -
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...php?p=15993157

I'm not as keen on the black box display - I'm going to a buddy's shop today who has one to see where would be a good place to mount the box. Nice thing is if you mount the box in something (like under the radio) it's a totally black face when the car is off.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Dale

rynberg

My thoughts? Participate in the (2nd) PLX group buy at Gotham.....

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

I would not buy it because it goes only to 16 AFR. Since I tune cruise between 16 and 16.5 AFR, it does not go lean enough for me.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Chuck - VERY good point, I missed that one. The box is a little big as well, just test-fit the box on my FD today. Doesn't really go anywhere that well, save under the radio. Too bulky for the top of the steering wheel, and too obnoxious with the AFX sticker on it to put on the dash.

Rynberg - I looked at the PLX, but I REALLY don't like the display on it. Way too hokey. I'm probably gonna go with the Innovate LC1/XD1 combo.

Dale

VegasFD

Have you considered a TechEdge? That's what I'm running.

sereneseven

+1 for the lc-1 had no problems works great plus innovate has an awsome forum and tech guys are always on there.

Sandro

iTrader: (1)

PLX according to their website

- can be connected to the Datalogit
- does not require calibration
- it's not temperature limited

sereneseven

^ the PLX uses the bosch lsu 4.2 which is the same sensor used by the lc-1 so the temperature limitations will be the same between the two units.

Ipohboy

iTrader: (1)

So Dale, which one you will choose then?

Funny enough , today I have red about the AFX kit and wanted to ask for opinions on this forum, but you beat me to it. hehe.

So conclusion, go with Innovate LC1? no?

brooklynfc3s

iTrader: (1)

whats up with the fjo wideband? I hear they're really reliable and precise. Does the ngk wideband use the ntk sensor?

Sandro

iTrader: (1)

Sensor's temp limitation is the same. Operation is not. See email exchange below (excerpt).

...The Innovate solution requires the sensor to be calibrated, while I did not find any requirement in your website.
Is your system different?
Thank you for your attention.
Sandro...

...Sandro,
One of the advantages of our products does not require any calibration. The innovate also requires you to install a heatink on the o2 sensor for proper operation. Our products do not require this.
Here’s more details of our technology.
http://www.plxdevices.com/AppNotes/P...Technology.pdf
PLX Devices Inc....

...Very interesting!
If I may ask more, why does your competitor specifies hight temperature limits why you are not?
Thank you in advance.
Sandro...

...Sandro,
Their method of controlling the o2 sensor is much different from ours. They use digital pulses to interpret the o2 sensor value where as we use current. The sensor was designed to use the current method for the sensor to function properly, (this is detailed in the bosch datasheets). However, they’ve devised a way to use digital to minimize their manufacturing cost.
By using digital, we’ve heard numerous customer feedbacks who have used both our products, that sometimes they receive a timing error. This happens when the sensor get around 600 deg C. When this happens, they have to reset the controller.
PLX widebands do not need to calibrate, and will operate at 850 Deg C, which is the datasheet specification of the bosch sensor.
PLX Devices Inc...

sereneseven

First let me make this clear I am not trying to push innovate on anyone but I just want to keep the facts straight...which it seems PLX doesn't like to do.

http://wbo2.com/lsu/Y258K01005e03mar21eng.pdf

above is a spec sheet on the bosch lsu 4.2.....note on page five is break down of operating temps (@housing < 570C exhaust gas < 930C ) Innovate advise that you should have a heat sink installed when housing temps get to 550C, PLX doesn't and claims it as a benefit....bottom line the sensor is the limiting factor .

as for the calibration yes you have to push a button befor you tune with it (real hard) one thing that PLX doesn't address is installation V errors or noise, the free air calc will cancel out this eronious V , also from my understanding resistance is different from sensor to sensor thats why when running on motec you have to enter a calibration number for each bosch lsu sensor or with innovate you free air calc.( I'm not completly sure of this it is my conclusion if i'm wrong and you know, correct me) .....how does PLX do it??

another factor that PLX claims as a benifit is how they damp the the feedback voltage claiming it is more accurate faster .....it looks to me like they have just placed a filter in line which means yes your readout will be more stable but the the actual data is just as scewed you just don't know it.

like I said I am not pushing Innovate and hope everyone chooses what ever makes them happy I just am not convinced PLX is really that much better.... if you really want something better look at the sensor end pretty much anything with a NTKL1H1 will be slightly more accurate but it will also cost more

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Good feedback in this thread!

My requirements for a wideband are -
- Good looking display that can be mounted in easy eyesight in the cockpit
- Must hook up and work well with the Datalogit
- Must be quality built, good wiring and connectors
- Must be a fair price

I think the Innovate gets the nod. Really, I'm not keen on any of the displays for any of the wideband gauges, but the Innovate XD-1 is the lesser of the evils. I REALLY wish the Japanese companies would start making affordable widebands - I'd love to have a Greddy gauge to match my other gauges.

I do like the PLX, but their displays are god-awful looking. Everything else I like about them, though. I was VERY interested in the AEM, but shot them down due to datalogit compatibility concerns.

Anyhoo, that's what I'm savin' up for.

Dale

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Just discovered this -

http://www.dynotunenitrous.com/store...?idproduct=171

They make displays that work with the Innovate LC-1. So, you can get an LC-1 and save money on the display. Their small square one isn't too shabby (linked above) and they do have round gauges as well that are a little hokey.

Dale

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

No mater which unit you get:
(1) make sure it has it's own display which is calibrated for it's sensor.
(2) Then adjust the DL poly values to force the DL to record the same AFRs as displayed by the units meter.

Kyle and I have seen a range of .1 to .3 AFR leaner readings by the DL than what the units display. Do this calibartion at a rich value near 10AFR. I have previously posted how to do this using a jar and propane/air mixture.

pluto

I had a conversation with the PLX engineer awhile back on their sampling rate vs. display reading. My understanding is that PLX actually samples their data at approx 25Hz and then averaging the data to display 10Hz vs. most of the other aftermarket units sampling at approx 10Hz-12Hz and display the value at the same freq. For those who has the M250-M300 series, you will see that it is very difficult to read the display because they sample it at 25HZ and display it at approx 15Hz so PLX decided to slow down their display readout to 10Hz or so.

sereneseven

hmm, well than I suppose the they do have a claim for more accruacy considering that they will draw two avg. samples per one displayed but the display rate is slower than innovate's which is 12hz so the difference in the total avg. that the datalogit samples is very minimal ha! not like the datalogit will ever even get close to those numbers

Sandro

iTrader: (1)

Interesting comment. I am not endorsing anybody either. I don't have a WBO2 yet and I am just trying to make an informed decision. So, if I understand your points right, you are basically saying PLX is lying when they say (re:http://www.plxdevices.com/AppNotes/P...Technology.pdf):

"High Operating Temperature:
Other wideband controller products on the market may require a heat sink to be installed on the oxygen sensor if the EGT (Exhaust Gas Temp) rises above ~550 Deg C. PLX Devices wideband products DO NOT require a heat sink to be installed and will function up to 850 Deg C. 850 Deg C is the maximum temperature the Bosch LSU sensor is design to operate."

and

"No Sensor Calibration Required:
...Unlike other products on the market, frequent free air sensor calibration is unnecessary...In addition, some wideband controllers which require calibration to free air may introduce unwanted errors. A calibration procedure requires a known oxygen concentration to reference the wideband controller. “Ideal free air” is an oxygen concentration at sea level (0 elevation), and 25 Deg C. If a wideband controller is calibrated to free air outside of “ideal free air” conditions, the controller will improperly reference the oxygen concentration. The oxygen concentration of air at high elevation is less than the oxygen concentration at sea level. To obtain accurate readings, the user must expose the oxygen sensor to free air at 0 elevation and an ambient temperature of 25 Deg C. This proves to be an impractical procedure and greatly complicates the usability of the product. PLX Devices wideband products do not require sensor calibration and come pre calibrated to “ideal free air” from a controlled laboratory environment."

I value your feedback.

Thanks,

Sandro

sereneseven

My satement about facts was in referance to they're claim about other manufactures systems not working above 550C...what they are doing is leading you to believe that this is in referance to EGT, it is not, the 550C is in referance to the body of the sensor which other manufactures warn they're customers about because BOSCH says they're sensor will not operate above 570C @ the housing. I think it's a little shady that PLX leads it's customers to believe that somehow with they're system the same BOSCH LSU 4.2 sensor can magically withstand higher temps at the body of the sensor.

Ok as for the free air calc.... It is my understanding that there are minute calibration differences between the bosch sensor's and because of this each one needs to be calibrated to the contoller, be it with a free air calc function or a manually entered value(motec) I also believe that the calibration degrades over time(the need to recal. every few months) So this begs the question how does PLX do this? also I need to read up a little more to make sure my thoughts are correct but I'm pretty sure that they're claim about the alltitude / temp error does not add up because if i remember corectley when bosch builds they're sensor they build in a calibrated reference for this, I'm pretty sure that is part of free air reference (tube covering the leads off the back of the sensor) Note don't zip tie this too tight). my facts on this are a little fuzzy right now...I will try to find some better liteature on this.

If some one has a better understanding of the calibration please chime in

Sandro

iTrader: (1)

I guess I want to follow up with PLX on this. Their claim is unequivocable - no heat sink required for the housing for temperatures above 550C. As you pointed out, how to reconcile this statement with the Bosch spec sheet?

Iwan

Dale, Greddy has a gauge in there products to display AFR but requere aditional device.
http://www.trust-power.com/02greddy/...series60w.html

REgards
Iwan

Eggie

Dale, is the SM-AFR's display really that different from the XD-1's?

sereneseven

ok I have now read enough spec sheets and artical's to be sure of my self when I state that PLX is a company with a product which can in no why claim to be better/faster/more accurate than the innovate stuff and I will even go so far as to say it is going to be less accurate in the real world vs the lm/lc-1.

The PLX system needs no calibration because they reley on the Bosch factory calibration to do it for them....what this doesn't take into account is the installation/degradation resistence of the pump cell. which is why innovate made theres with the free air calc funtion. even bosch has admitted that the old analog chip of they're's is meant for OEM performance and not really suited to being used as a racing tunning aid, in fact they have been involved in designing ecu's in germany which have the free air calc funtion built in to operate under deccel.

check this out it is a very good more indepth read on what I have stated above

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...ead.php?t=1627

yes i know it on the innovate forum but its hard to argue against facts no matter who states them.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

It's the same basic layout (numbers in the middle, LED's around the perimeter) but the presentation is the issue. PLX uses a REALLY cheesy font, and the gauge just looks hokey as hell. The XD-1 isn't much better.

On the Greddy gauge - Greddy makes an AF gauge, but it uses their own O2 sensor and isn't supposed to be a true wideband. The gauge MAYBE could be used with another wideband setup, but that's a helluva lot of money to spend on a maybe.

Dale

rynberg

All you guys so worried about temps affecting the sensor should just put the wideband bung in the proper place!

Dale, I agree with you, I wish PLX had stayed with their old gauge design. FWIW, the PLX gauge looks better in person than it does in pictures.