Engine swaps for the FC? Part 2
03-10-05, 06:35 PM
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Engine swaps for the FC? Part 2
Originally Posted by Forcus
When a rotary blows it is usually an apex seal breaking (they can warp, which just lowers / eliminates compression). If an apex seal breaks sometimes you will get lucky and it won't damage anything but I have not seen pictures on here yet of that miracle happening. Usually what will happen is a piece of the seal will exit the groove that holds it in the rotor, scrape and ding up the rotor, and gouge the rotor housing. If you are lucky it won't damage the turbo. That's why rebuilding before the fact (as in, if it has high miles or you KNOW you have low compression, or its been sitting a long time) is preferable.
Sounds like you will be happy with the rotary and it will suit your purposes exactly and your plan is a solid one. After you rebuild, before you do ANY mods.. I would suggest getting a full complement of gauges so you know what is going on inside that motor. A good boost gauge, a wide band 02 sensor and monitor, good temperature gauge (since heat is a rotary killer), etc. That way when you do mod... you won't blow your motor, at least due to ignorance of whats going on inside your motor.
2 FYI's.. Jspec's are just pullout motors from Japanese market cars that have been junked. They are not really advantageous except as a rebuildable core with low miles. The other FYI is you do not have to go carb if you did a V8 RX7 (which like I said doesn't really fit your requirements anyways). My friend has a carb'd 383 Chevy in his FB and I will likely have an FI'd 302 / 331 in my FC.
Sounds like you will be happy with the rotary and it will suit your purposes exactly and your plan is a solid one. After you rebuild, before you do ANY mods.. I would suggest getting a full complement of gauges so you know what is going on inside that motor. A good boost gauge, a wide band 02 sensor and monitor, good temperature gauge (since heat is a rotary killer), etc. That way when you do mod... you won't blow your motor, at least due to ignorance of whats going on inside your motor.
2 FYI's.. Jspec's are just pullout motors from Japanese market cars that have been junked. They are not really advantageous except as a rebuildable core with low miles. The other FYI is you do not have to go carb if you did a V8 RX7 (which like I said doesn't really fit your requirements anyways). My friend has a carb'd 383 Chevy in his FB and I will likely have an FI'd 302 / 331 in my FC.
Yea, I'm one of those guys that makes sure the engine is sound and I know what's going on with it before I start to push the car or mod it. The first thing I planned on doing after I got the car was to hook up some gauges, get a boost controller so I can keep the boost down and have the car live loner, and get a turbo timer and such.
I wouldn't mind a fuel injected 350 at all, but it would be a little harder to rig one of those up than a carbed 350.
03-10-05, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ice_Wolf
Alright, so before the engine blows, rebuild it. Got it.
Yea, I'm one of those guys that makes sure the engine is sound and I know what's going on with it before I start to push the car or mod it. The first thing I planned on doing after I got the car was to hook up some gauges, get a boost controller so I can keep the boost down and have the car live loner, and get a turbo timer and such.
I wouldn't mind a fuel injected 350 at all, but it would be a little harder to rig one of those up than a carbed 350.
Yea, I'm one of those guys that makes sure the engine is sound and I know what's going on with it before I start to push the car or mod it. The first thing I planned on doing after I got the car was to hook up some gauges, get a boost controller so I can keep the boost down and have the car live loner, and get a turbo timer and such.
I wouldn't mind a fuel injected 350 at all, but it would be a little harder to rig one of those up than a carbed 350.
You are right though, it is harder to put fuel injection in than a carb. Heck, my friend with the 383 FB still took a while to integrate the wiring from the FB to his carb'd motor. Mine will also require quite a bit of integration and that's pretty much a given with a custom swap. Just requires homework. Believe it or not, in this point in time, there aren't really any non-scienced out V8 swaps that I can think of, except perhaps, LS1's in an FB! I have already found tons of LT1 / FC / 5.0 / FC information and just haven't assimilated it yet.
In any case, sounds like you are going with the rotary which is cool and you have a solid plan. Good luck and let me know if you have any more questions (PM or here).
Brian
03-10-05, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Wolf
The main reason I wanted to keep the rotary is because I want a high revving beast that's got a high top speed.
just because the LS1 v8 isnt a high revving motor doesnt mean it isnt even MORE fun to drive... I had a 9500 rpm redline built GSR motor swapped into my 2000 pound Civic for the last 2 years and the same motor in its originla chassis (GSR Sedan) at the stock 8200rpm redline for 3 years before that... and I love the LS1FC because it just completely rips... you wont have time to look at the tach when youre eyes are in disbelief of how fast the speedo is moving up.. the acceleration is just amazing... I've got a low 12 second car here... and the LS1 motor is still all stock! also, you dont lose topspeed when running an LS1, thats for sure!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Wolf
Also, I've never been a big fan of carburation, that's the only reason I don't like old motors. I'm a lot more partial to fuel injection.
I hear you on that, but remember thats just the super-cheap way to do a V8 swap (with a carb'd motor)... those are motors you can find for free. if you just have $1000 for a V8 motor you can get a fuel injected LT1 from a chevy caprice or camaro/firebird. the LT1 is a somewhat modern motor capable of huge power and with a 6speed tranny your topspeed is the same as any rotary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Wolf
I also love the uniqueness of a rotary engine and that it's something special to have instead of the usual cars.
yeah I like the rotary for its uniqueness and compact size but its reliability (when modified and driven hard) is less than optimal... at least from a cost perspective. now that the LS1 swaps are cheap and LS1FC mounts are well made and off-the-shelf, the LS1FC is a easy project and very cost-effective... not to mention it is even MORE unique since there arent many LS1FC's/LS1FD's. To me, its even more unique to have a V8 swapped rx7 that is setup for autocross/dailydriving/hpde's only because a lot of the previously built v8rx7's were drag cars.
I wouldn't mind a 6 speed V8 that can run a 12, that would actually be quite fun. It might not be hard at all for me to get an LS1 because I live in redneck country. There's tons of Firebirds and crap around here with those engines. It'll definitely be a thought to do an LS1 swap when the engine gets low on compression. Thanks for the help guys.
Originally Posted by Ice_Wolf
The main reason I wanted to keep the rotary is because I want a high revving beast that's got a high top speed.
just because the LS1 v8 isnt a high revving motor doesnt mean it isnt even MORE fun to drive... I had a 9500 rpm redline built GSR motor swapped into my 2000 pound Civic for the last 2 years and the same motor in its originla chassis (GSR Sedan) at the stock 8200rpm redline for 3 years before that... and I love the LS1FC because it just completely rips... you wont have time to look at the tach when youre eyes are in disbelief of how fast the speedo is moving up.. the acceleration is just amazing... I've got a low 12 second car here... and the LS1 motor is still all stock! also, you dont lose topspeed when running an LS1, thats for sure!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Wolf
Also, I've never been a big fan of carburation, that's the only reason I don't like old motors. I'm a lot more partial to fuel injection.
I hear you on that, but remember thats just the super-cheap way to do a V8 swap (with a carb'd motor)... those are motors you can find for free. if you just have $1000 for a V8 motor you can get a fuel injected LT1 from a chevy caprice or camaro/firebird. the LT1 is a somewhat modern motor capable of huge power and with a 6speed tranny your topspeed is the same as any rotary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Wolf
I also love the uniqueness of a rotary engine and that it's something special to have instead of the usual cars.
yeah I like the rotary for its uniqueness and compact size but its reliability (when modified and driven hard) is less than optimal... at least from a cost perspective. now that the LS1 swaps are cheap and LS1FC mounts are well made and off-the-shelf, the LS1FC is a easy project and very cost-effective... not to mention it is even MORE unique since there arent many LS1FC's/LS1FD's. To me, its even more unique to have a V8 swapped rx7 that is setup for autocross/dailydriving/hpde's only because a lot of the previously built v8rx7's were drag cars.
I wouldn't mind a 6 speed V8 that can run a 12, that would actually be quite fun. It might not be hard at all for me to get an LS1 because I live in redneck country. There's tons of Firebirds and crap around here with those engines. It'll definitely be a thought to do an LS1 swap when the engine gets low on compression. Thanks for the help guys.
03-10-05, 08:40 PM
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For those unaware, even the LT1/T56 has a phenomenal top speed. Last Saturday I wound mine up in 6th to about 4800RPM. I let off because I knew when to say when. It was still pulling, but I'm unsure of what the car would do as it neared the 200MPH mark. Funny aerodynamic things happen to cars at that speed. A quick look at a calculator says my speed was about 175MPH. Getting there was not difficult either. Once you're in 4th, every gear after pulls similar to the one before it.
The highest I was ever able to take a 13bt was around 155 in the same car before I backed down for fear of detonation. 17PSI on a 60-1 at those speeds is putting quite a bit of strain on things
As far as difficulty goes, it's not near as bad as it first looks. If you have an uncut harness, there should be roughly 7 or 8 wires that need to be spliced into the chassis harness.
12V+ constant
12V+ switched
Ground
Start signal
Cooling fan relay
Fuel pump relay
Those are the needed connections to start and run an EFI engine. Other items to plumb into the chassis harness would be alternator, oil pressure and water temp.
Don't let EFI scare you away, it's actually VERY simple if you have an uncut harness and can follow a wiring diagram.
BTW: For the MOST part (I have seen some exceptions), when looking at ECU wiring diagrams a circuit that needs 12v+ switched will feed the other 12v+ switched circuits if you feed only feed one. Same goes for 12v+ constant and grounds. Looking at an EFI harness is daunting, but once you understand how simple it really is, it just makes sense.
Don't be afraid to go EFI. Fuel economy, emissions and your girlfriend will all benefit. No more stalling due to hard braking or cornering and no more tuning for each change of the season.
The highest I was ever able to take a 13bt was around 155 in the same car before I backed down for fear of detonation. 17PSI on a 60-1 at those speeds is putting quite a bit of strain on things
As far as difficulty goes, it's not near as bad as it first looks. If you have an uncut harness, there should be roughly 7 or 8 wires that need to be spliced into the chassis harness.
12V+ constant
12V+ switched
Ground
Start signal
Cooling fan relay
Fuel pump relay
Those are the needed connections to start and run an EFI engine. Other items to plumb into the chassis harness would be alternator, oil pressure and water temp.
Don't let EFI scare you away, it's actually VERY simple if you have an uncut harness and can follow a wiring diagram.
BTW: For the MOST part (I have seen some exceptions), when looking at ECU wiring diagrams a circuit that needs 12v+ switched will feed the other 12v+ switched circuits if you feed only feed one. Same goes for 12v+ constant and grounds. Looking at an EFI harness is daunting, but once you understand how simple it really is, it just makes sense.
Don't be afraid to go EFI. Fuel economy, emissions and your girlfriend will all benefit. No more stalling due to hard braking or cornering and no more tuning for each change of the season.
03-11-05, 09:40 AM
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Alright, now that I know about the V8 swap, what about putting it into a non turbo model? Is the swap gonna be any harder? Time to check what the non turbo model came with for options and parts.
03-11-05, 09:49 AM
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Doing the swap to a non turbo model is just the same. The only difference being the driveshaft.
Now, as far as safety goes, I would try and source an S4 GTU or GXL. They are lighter than their S5 brethren and they have beefy brakes. Ideally, an S4 GXL would be the route to go. power everything, good brakes and a posi. The rear isn't as tough as a Turbo model, but for the street they will take whatever you throw at them.
Now, as far as safety goes, I would try and source an S4 GTU or GXL. They are lighter than their S5 brethren and they have beefy brakes. Ideally, an S4 GXL would be the route to go. power everything, good brakes and a posi. The rear isn't as tough as a Turbo model, but for the street they will take whatever you throw at them.
03-11-05, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Ice_Wolf
Alright, now that I know about the V8 swap, what about putting it into a non turbo model? Is the swap gonna be any harder? Time to check what the non turbo model came with for options and parts.
Edit:
Here is the thread at torquecentral:
http://www.torquecentral.com/showthread.php?t=26797
Here is some info that he gave me in an email:
That is a real good question. I don't really know what I want for it. These things vary so much in price it's hard to say what it's even worth. It's in really good shape so i would say probably on the higher end of that spectrum. may 2500 or so. I got this picture off of kbb and the picture looks exactly like my car down to the wheels, color, and spoiler. the only difference in the pictures are that mine has been lowered an inch or two. I am located in Sullivan, Illinois. Where are you from. If you are interested let me know and if you are close you can come take a look at it. i don't really have a set $$ that I have to get out of it and i'm not doing much with it now but I can't let myself sell it for a couple hundred bucks becuase it's not costing me anything to keep it around. email me back and let me know what you think, even if you aren't interested.
Last edited by Forcus; 03-11-05 at 10:18 AM.
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03-11-05, 03:57 PM
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So basically, if I choose to use an N/A car over a turbo, all I'd be missing out on are the side skirts, leather interior, hood, and a different drive shaft? I thought I read somewhere that the transmission was also different too. The rear end is also different, with the turbo having a limited slip differential and also the mirrors aren't color keyed and the interior is Twill on the turbo instead of velour and also the rims are different. The GXL is not too much different than the turbo besides looks it seems not to mention GXL's are cheap. Forgot to add that the turbo has a boost gauge instead of a voltmeter. Seems pretty sweet, but then again, I'd still love to have the 10th AE black leather interior. I wonder if I could find a blown 10th AE cause that would rock. Thanks for the link to the car btw, bad thing is that it's carbed though.
03-11-05, 04:00 PM
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So basically, if I choose to use an N/A car over a turbo, all I'd be missing out on are the leather interior or twill interior, hood, different drive shaft, viscous limited slip differential, tires and rims, and body color mirrors and I'd be getting that stupid automatic adjusting suspension. 
I thought I read somewhere that the transmission was also different too. the advantage are that I'd be getting better seats, a voltmeter, no stupid anti-lock brakes, and no stupid touchy power steering. The GXL is not too much different than the turbo besides looks it seems not to mention GXL's are cheap. Seems pretty sweet, but then again, I'd still love to have the 10th AE black leather interior, bronze tint, and white paint. I wonder if I could find a blown 10th AE cause that would rock. Thanks for the link to the car btw, bad thing is that it's carbed though.
I thought I read somewhere that the transmission was also different too. the advantage are that I'd be getting better seats, a voltmeter, no stupid anti-lock brakes, and no stupid touchy power steering. The GXL is not too much different than the turbo besides looks it seems not to mention GXL's are cheap. Seems pretty sweet, but then again, I'd still love to have the 10th AE black leather interior, bronze tint, and white paint. I wonder if I could find a blown 10th AE cause that would rock. Thanks for the link to the car btw, bad thing is that it's carbed though.
Last edited by Ice_Wolf; 03-11-05 at 04:12 PM.
03-12-05, 09:29 AM
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I chose an '87 Sport for my LS1 swap... bought in down in VA for $650 with a dead rotary motor, everything else was in ok shape, just missing the radio and shifter surrounds.
-why the Sport model?
-because 5 lug big brakes are standard, it has no sunroof, no power accessories(although some had A/C but thats easily removed) and it has a functional aero kit on it that provided lower aerodynamic drag. I found an aluminum n/a hood for cheap ($40)and bought a S4 T2 pumpkin+halfshafts ($350) and now the car is light as hell pus it has the stronger rear end... NICE!
-why the Sport model?
-because 5 lug big brakes are standard, it has no sunroof, no power accessories(although some had A/C but thats easily removed) and it has a functional aero kit on it that provided lower aerodynamic drag. I found an aluminum n/a hood for cheap ($40)and bought a S4 T2 pumpkin+halfshafts ($350) and now the car is light as hell pus it has the stronger rear end... NICE!
03-14-05, 08:37 AM
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Well, not all TII's had leather interior (mine doesn't). Here are the differences I can think of over base models, right off the top of my head:
5 lug vs. 4 lug
Bigger brakes
Stiffer stock suspension (not a big deal)
Stronger trans (which doesn't matter with a V8 swap but is more sellable)
Stronger rearend (and halfshafts?)
I believe, beefier sway bars
Different gauge cluster (not a big deal)
Chin spoiler on front end
Turbo motor (obviously)
Side skirts
Mirrors
There are some others but you get the idea. You can't deny a cheap, rustfree, local GXL over a beat TII. I stumbled on my TII cheap, so it was a no brainer. I could have bought a base model, but there was no reason to. Also remember you can part out all of the TII stuff and make much of your money back. Base model stuff doesn't really go for much. But probably you will be buying based on opportunity more than if it's a TII.
One very important thing that I've found... Don't EVER mention to the seller you are planning a V8 swap. I have found that this will turn many of them dead cold, not only will they not negotiate.. They will often not even sell it to you. Act like you are going to park it in your garage, rebuild it to stock, and polish it with baby diapers. Seriously.
5 lug vs. 4 lug
Bigger brakes
Stiffer stock suspension (not a big deal)
Stronger trans (which doesn't matter with a V8 swap but is more sellable)
Stronger rearend (and halfshafts?)
I believe, beefier sway bars
Different gauge cluster (not a big deal)
Chin spoiler on front end
Turbo motor (obviously)
Side skirts
Mirrors
There are some others but you get the idea. You can't deny a cheap, rustfree, local GXL over a beat TII. I stumbled on my TII cheap, so it was a no brainer. I could have bought a base model, but there was no reason to. Also remember you can part out all of the TII stuff and make much of your money back. Base model stuff doesn't really go for much. But probably you will be buying based on opportunity more than if it's a TII.
One very important thing that I've found... Don't EVER mention to the seller you are planning a V8 swap. I have found that this will turn many of them dead cold, not only will they not negotiate.. They will often not even sell it to you. Act like you are going to park it in your garage, rebuild it to stock, and polish it with baby diapers. Seriously.
03-16-05, 05:27 PM
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This all sounds very very good to me. I'm gonna start checking into prices for a 350 swap and prices for a rotary rebuild and see what I can come up with. Thanks guys.
03-17-05, 08:44 AM
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If you want to get one of the LS1 crate engines, you may want to check out Scoggin Dickey of Texas.
I think the number was 1-800-456-0211
The best contact there that I know, is this guy by the name of Barry Crow. Once again, don't know if he still there.
Actually, they got more than just the LS1 stuff, anything Chevrolet has for performance parts, they have, or can get.
I think the number was 1-800-456-0211
The best contact there that I know, is this guy by the name of Barry Crow. Once again, don't know if he still there.
Actually, they got more than just the LS1 stuff, anything Chevrolet has for performance parts, they have, or can get.
Last edited by FC3SHawaii; 03-17-05 at 08:45 AM. Reason: addtion...
03-17-05, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Forcus
One very important thing that I've found... Don't EVER mention to the seller you are planning a V8 swap. I have found that this will turn many of them dead cold, not only will they not negotiate.. They will often not even sell it to you. Act like you are going to park it in your garage, rebuild it to stock, and polish it with baby diapers. Seriously.
I just scored another FC rolling shell... for dirt cheap... its amazing how cheap they can be found.
03-17-05, 03:56 PM
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Do you guys think if I bought a turbo II, I'd be able to sell the parts I don't need for the 350 swap? I was wondering if I'd be able to get anything for the old engine, transmission, drive shaft, etc. or if it'd be better to just get a GXL. Do you think the old parts from a GXL would sell at all either?
03-17-05, 04:30 PM
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It would help offset the cost. If it's a nicely modded TII, then it's very possible.
I sold $4800 in aftermarket goodies off of my car to fund my swap. Greddy FMIC, 60-1, light flywheel, Microtech, etc, etc. My engine was total trash.
If it's a stock TII, expect to get less than half of that if the motor is in great shape.
I sold $4800 in aftermarket goodies off of my car to fund my swap. Greddy FMIC, 60-1, light flywheel, Microtech, etc, etc. My engine was total trash.
If it's a stock TII, expect to get less than half of that if the motor is in great shape.
03-18-05, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ice_Wolf
Alright, that's good to know the parts won't just be going to waste, not to mention it would help fun a swap or new parts.
yea, i sold my TII parts to an N/A guy so it is helping to at least make the rotaries that are left a lil faster haha
04-14-05, 07:08 AM
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Engine/tranny/ECU/harness
engine cradle/tranny cradle/driveshaft (Granny's or Hinson)
Hedman shorty headers (part number on Granny's site)
Radiator (Granny's bolt-in=$$$ or aftermarket GM radiator and build your mounts)
Custom power steering high pressure hose (measure length and have one made at your local hydraulic shop)
AN-3 clutch hydraulic line
AN-3->GM clutch slave adapter (Earl's carries these) or 1/8NPT->AN-3 adapter and drill/tap the clutch slave
FC or FD alternator (modify one mounting tab to fit - look on Torquecentral for pics)
That's pretty much it. The rest is matching up hose lengths and diameters at your local parts store and wiring it up.
engine cradle/tranny cradle/driveshaft (Granny's or Hinson)
Hedman shorty headers (part number on Granny's site)
Radiator (Granny's bolt-in=$$$ or aftermarket GM radiator and build your mounts)
Custom power steering high pressure hose (measure length and have one made at your local hydraulic shop)
AN-3 clutch hydraulic line
AN-3->GM clutch slave adapter (Earl's carries these) or 1/8NPT->AN-3 adapter and drill/tap the clutch slave
FC or FD alternator (modify one mounting tab to fit - look on Torquecentral for pics)
That's pretty much it. The rest is matching up hose lengths and diameters at your local parts store and wiring it up.
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