jimlab

That's because displacement is the swept volume of all cylinders (the difference in volume between TDC and BDC). The only time the combustion chamber volume is taken into consideration is when calculating compression ratio.

Snyper

Well see, it took you a week to realize this..now its his turn.

roachdiddy

iTrader: (1)

so is it a 1.3 or a 2.6?

Roen

iTrader: (2)

technically, it is functionally equivalent to a 3.9L 6 cylinder with a 1.5x gear on the output shaft. That's best scene looking a the graph of engine torque pulses.

As for the displacement question, no one really agrees.

My plan was to limit it to NA, for my test.

TehMonkay

iTrader: (-1)

Exactly, i wasnt saying any different. He just oversimplified his original statement.

Isn't the reason it ingests 2x the air because the piston engine doesnt take in any air on every other stroke, its used for compression, therefore, wasted energy. That's the point im trying to get across.

Josh18_2k

iTrader: (3)

omg 667hp/l, naturally aspirated! screw rotaries and v8s
http://www.zearth.com/-P4544.aspx

TehMonkay

iTrader: (-1)

try 4.2793563847997261211913728175282 HP/l

Josh18_2k

iTrader: (3)

um.. .46ci = .0075L
5hp/.0075L = 666.6hp/L

im just being facetious anyway. its silly how carried away these engine debates get

TehMonkay

iTrader: (-1)

oh yeah, i was backwards

jimlab

The swept volume of a 13B over 2 rotations of the eccentric shaft is 2.6 liters (4 x 654cc = 2.6L).

Actually, the best thing to look at is the fact that the tach signal of a 2-rotor engine is identical to that of a 4-cylinder piston engine, with 4 firing events every two rotations of the crankshaft/eccentric shaft. That means the actual swept volume is twice what Mazda's rating is when compared to a piston engine.

grade247

I mean isn't this whole thread about what HE wants? I mean if you are a V8 fan hell yes do a LS if you love rotaries then hell do a rotary if you like street bikes hell do a GSXR or a hyabusa swap lol it all depends on your love of the car and the price you are willing to pay.

just my .02

slo

iTrader: (1)

Yeah but its a 2 stroke and so has 1 compression pulse per revolution, therefore its not really .0075 liters, but actually .015 liters...

ha ha

RETed

Basically you'd need to redo the entire fuel system, since restrictions are the fuel lines.
I'd say depending on what your previous set-up, it could cost anywhere from a grand to a couple thousand.
The turbo is going to be the main component that dictates maximum power, and the price range varies a lot.
There are folks that run really high boost and just add supplemental injection (i.e. water or meth or both) that have hit big numbers - this would be the "cheap" option.


-Ted

RETed

I dunno how you inferred that from my words, but...

Let me give you the context.

I was talking with a buddy about engine options, and of course the V8 would be one of them.
I started looking for info on this, and I was just surprised how *cheap* some of the prices that were posted.
Granted, there are deals to me found, but these have to be few and far in between.
(I did a quick check on eBay, and most of the LS1 + trans are minimum $3k, unless you want to get into a bidding war with other people.)

It's hard to "crack" into a thread in here, since you gotta be careful how you word your replies.
I saw this thread, and it gave me a perfect opportunity to ask certain questions without stepping on anyone's toes.
What if I had started another thread asking about LS1 prices myself?
Actually, there's a recent thread with this exact same question, and LS1FC quoted $3k - $5k just for the motor with estimates edging higher to like $5k to $7k when it's all said and done for.
That's the numbers I had calculated in my head.
So when you start spitting out numbers like $2k to $3k for turnkey, of course I'll be skeptical...

My words were never meant to imply anything.
Sorry if it offended you, but it was never my intention of doing so.


-Ted

RETed

I took my car down to an exhaust shop, and they charged me $500 just to put in a "cat back" and a single 3" muffler.
So whose costs do we pick?
Just because you can get those prices doesn't necessarily mean everyone else can.
The way I see it, you'd need to make everything from the header back.
You're looking at at least two mufflers and at least about 15 feet of pipe.
Add an H-pipe or an X-pipe crossover, and that just drives up cost.
An exhaust job like that down here is going to cost you at least $500 minimum.

Right, but that's a pretty big assumption.
I've got access to MIG and TIG, and basically can handle steel, aluminum, and stainless.
All I got to do is pay for the materials and consumables.
Does this mean I'm going to assume everyone can do this too?
That's just ignorant.


Still assuming...
I charge several hundred dollars just to port rotary engines.
If it's that easy, everyone and their grandmother would be doing it.
There's a reason why shops can charge significant amounts to port (V8) heads.
You can't assume that.


Sure, anyone can do that.
That doesn't mean you automatically made everything more efficient.
Just hearing you describe it so simply already has shown that you really don't know what you are talking about.


I dunno where you got that "$400" from, cause it was not part of the reply you quoted from me.
I was estimating more like $1,000 for the turbo.


Things like fuel pump, fuel injectors, EMS are all a given.
It's going to apply to both, so why count this as nickel and dime stuff?
How much do stock LS1 fuel injectors support?


Right, so on top of your $4,500, you still have to pay for:
* engine cradle
* driveshaft
* custom exhaust
* headers?

So you can get a $1,500 pull-out...
Not impossible (I never said it wasn't), but let's be realistic here.


No, I find info that conflicts with what you are claiming.
You're getting your panties in a bunch cause I'm not gonna believe your claims on blind faith.


Funny, cause someone else mentioned $3k to $5k in another thread.
Someone else posted they paid closer to $5k for their engine and trans.
Why aren't you jumping on their cases?



-Ted

roachdiddy

iTrader: (1)

very interesting.
jim, why would they say it is a 1.3 then? isnt that kind of stupid on the marketing side? they have men as smart as you working at mazda, why didnt they catch that?

RETed

This is what is listed on eBay right now...


LS1 + auto trans

eBay #300197701482
98 Corvette LS1 Engine Automatic Transmission LS6 105K
"350 horsepower, Thoroughly tested & checked w/ warranty"
$3,149 start / $3,249 BIN

eBay #370021676513
2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6 LS1 Engine Motor Auto 90k
$2,025 (13 bids, reserve not met) / $2,999 BIN

eBay #220201031483
98 Trans Am Camaro LS1 Engine w/Auto Transmission 81K
$2,699 BIN

eBay #230222287575
2004 Pontiac GTO LS1 engine liftout, with auto trans
"5.7 V8; Includes all accessories, ECM, wiring"
$5,000 start (no bids)

eBay #230221476224
CHEVY LS1 ENGINE AND 4L60E TRANSMISSION PACKAGE
"ENGINE, TRANS, TORQUE CONVERTER AND ECM CPU"
$5,900 start (no bids)

eBay #170193594301
97-04 LS1 LS6 engine 4L60 transmission Corvette GTO
"1998 MOTOR TRANS NO RES 95000 MILES BEST BUY HOT ROD"
$2,500 start (no bids) / $2,800 BIN

eBay #180215713000
2002 LS1 COMPLETE ENGINE DROPOUT W/AUTO TRANNY (62k)
$3,500 start (no bids)

eBay #180215713767
2002 LS1 COMPLETE ENGINE DROPOUT W/AUTO TRANNY (58k)
$3,500 start (no bids)

eBay #170193979456
2002 LS1 COMPLETE ENGINE DROPOUT W/AUTO TRANNY (67k)
$2,025 (6 bids) reserve not met

ebay #190198970155
LS1 with 4L60 automatic 53K miles Camaro Firebird
$3,800 start (no bids)

eBay #190199097378
00 Trans Am Camaro LS1 Engine w/Auto Transmission 94k
$2,999 BIN




LS1 + manual trans (T56?)

eBay #310021941284
07 CTS-V LS2 Corvette Engine w/ 6 Speed 3K Z06 LS6 LS1
"400 horsepower, 395 torque, Very Rare & POWERFUL LS2"
$7,399 start / $7,499 BIN

eBay #270211834269
2001 LS1 engine with 6 speed. FREE Computer reprogram
"32,468 miles"
$4,350 start (no bids)

eBay #250215114305
2002 LS1 T56 6 SPEED COMPLETE 35TH ANIVERSARY CAMARO
$4,500 BIN

eBay #200199818465
01 Trans Am Camaro LS1 Engine w/Manual Transmission 46k
$5,299 BIN

eBay #220202456435
99 Trans Am Camaro LS1 Engine w/Manual Transmission 65k
$3,999 BIN



LS1 + trans : multiple bids

eBay #130197292368
2001 CAMARO TRANS AM LS1 ENGINE W/ AUTO TRANS 65K MILES
"330HP 5.7 CORVETTE STREET ROD COMPLETE DROPOUT"
$2,025 (10 bids)

eBay #130197293823
2000 CAMARO TRANS AM LS1 ENGINE W/ AUTO TRANS 87K MILES
"330HP 5.7 CORVETTE STREET ROD COMPLETE DROPOUT"
$2,075 (8 bids)

eBay #310022892804
01-04 LS1 LS6 engine 4L60 transmission Corvette GTO
"2002 MOTOR TRANS NO RES 40000 MILES Modified 400 HP"
$2,225 (8 bid)

eBay #180215725720
97-04 LS1 LS6 engine T-56 transmission Corvette GTO
"1998 Chevy Camaro SS 320 HP 6 speed manual HOT ROD SWAP"
$1,500 (2 bids) / $4,400 BIN / 5 days left



If we just look at the LS1's with manual transmissions, prices start from $4k and go up to $7,500 (if we eliminate the one auction which is still active with multiple bids).
Even if we knock off $1,000 for "overpricing", we're still left with prices from $3k to $6k.
To me, that sounds like a more reasonable price range.

Any HP numbers range is in the 300hp to 400hp area (at the flywheel).
So, you need to add all the goodies for most of these motors just to get them to put down 400 at the wheels.
A reasonable estimate is more like $5k?
A $5k engine conversion is not exactly cheap in my book.


-Ted

GaryHoffmann

I thought I may give my 2 cents. I have been in the process of restoring an 88ae for the last 2 years. I am now going with an ls1 swap with a light pressure turbo. I love the rotary and have had over 20 of them. But I have swapped countless engines into them. After my 12k rebuild in my ae went south I decided enough was enough. Granted it looked to be a poor rebuild and parts were reused that shouldn't have been. I made my decision from doing the research and riding in an ls1 fc that whas just an all stock n/a. The driveability was awesome and I was sold. Do what will make you happy, it's your coin. My swap will cost me right under 7k with the turbo set up having a reputable shop do the work.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Wouldn't the geared 6 cyl behave the same way? (i.e. 6/1.5 = 4?) As in, because of the gearing, the angle changes from 180 to 270 and it would now take 3 output shaft rotations to fire all 6 cylinders? So then you would get 4 firing events for every 2 rotations?

The way I look at it, it's usually (number of rotors x 3) / 1.5, which simplifies to (number of rotors x 2). But as you can see, the simplication blocks the fact that it would be a larger engine with a gear on it. (The 3 / 1.5 as opposed to just the 2). I usually visualize it a functional displacement or swept volume divided by gearing, instead of just a straight swept volume or displacement. Either way you get 4, but I guess the important thing is how you get to that four.

Using the 13B-DEI (NA Engine) as an example, If I had a 6 cylinder engine, with cylinder volumes .654 cc that made max power at 5000 rpm, with a redline of 5333 rpm, a ECU rev limit of 5866 rpm, and a 3:2 gear before the engine outshaft and have it mated to a 5-speed tranny with the gear ratios 3.475, 2.002, 1.366, 1, .697 and a diff with a 4.1 R&P ratio, I wouldn't be surprised if it had the same characteristics as a S5 NA.

Now if the tach measured crankshaft rotation, your gauges would read max power at 7500 rpm, redline at 8000 and rev limit at 8800.

That 3:2 gear would also sap torque since power is kept constant, but rpms would increase, so torque has to decrease.

They measure by static swept volume of 1 combustion chamber to get their static displacement figure. It's both right and wrong. Personally, I take the unorthodox view that there are 6 combustion chambers in the engine. You can try to figure out where they are. Here's a hint, they're not always in the same place.

I had a debate about this in the Lounge with a guy who said that he could do an REW swap for the price of a TII swap. I said, sure you can do it, but doesn't meant everyone else can. And also, if you had the skills to make an REW swap cost the same as an average TII swap, then you can do a TII swap for even less.

roachdiddy

iTrader: (1)

They measure by static swept volume of 1 combustion chamber to get their static displacement figure. It's both right and wrong. Personally, I take the unorthodox view that there are 6 combustion chambers in the engine. You can try to figure out where they are. Here's a hint, they're not always in the same place.


id tell you i understand... but i dont. haha thats why i will just stick to driving what i have! thank you for trying to explain it to me

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Well, imagine the rotary when it's not moving. How much fluid can you put into the rotor housing when the rotor is in the position of maximum expansion? .654 cc. Multiply that by 2 housings and you get 1.3L.

Note that I didn't use the term "combustion chamber".

RETed

I didn't even bother arguing with those bitches, are their logic was all flawed.
I still don't like all that prefab crap out there.
To do it right, you just weld in a crossmember to use the stock 13B-REW engine mounts, period.

I mean we can argue getting "free" FC's, cause Circuit Theory got PAID $100 to take a pretty modded FC away...
I'm looking at *reasonable* costs here.

The numbers I come up with is just around $5,000 to do an LS1T56 swap.
$5,000 is not a trivial amount of money.
Sure, you can do it for less - I've never argued it was impossible.
$5,000 thrown at an FC with a 13BT to start out with can produce a pretty quick car.

The V8 is going to be more "reliable".
Actually, both can be build reliabily, but the rotary engine does not resist detonation like an NA V8 is - no argument here.
Doing stupid things with either motor is going to reward you with an expensive door stop.
Producing either to pump out 400hp is not very trivial either.
Sure, you can teach people to work on V8's (i.e. cam swaps), but people also do pay shops to do this kinda work also.

When looking purely at the numbers - HP and $ - either option is going to take serious cash.
Pouring money into a vehicle was never meant to be a break-even proposition.
The only that matters is how YOU feel about spending the money and if it was worth it.

Hell, if I could do an LS1T56 swap and put down 400hp at the wheels with 3 G's, I would do it in a heartbeat!
Problem is that I can't...not with the numbers that I'm working with.


-Ted

slo

iTrader: (1)

It is a 1.3L by their definition, which for sales outside of the USA is quite convenient,

it just doesn't work vary well in comparison to piston engines.

Different case, but would you compare the horsepower per displacement of a 2 stroke 500 cc engine with that of a 4 stroke

same type of issue as with the rotary engine.

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

Well, the one I took yesterday got me out the door for $142. And he MADE the Y pipe. He is the best exhaust guy that I've ever used, and he's by far the cheapest. His shop is in a hole in the wall town in the middle of nowhere, but only about a 15min ride for me.

Dunno, but if you live in Hawaii, we both know that cost of living there is close to the highest in the nation. How much is a gallon of milk there? Round here it's about $4.50.

YES THEY CAN!!! You just have to be patient and diligent in your search. I know where an LS1 w/comp and harness is right now for $1200 (no tranny). Want it?

Nope, single exhaust. Use an aftermarket catback. It will come up to in front of the subframe. Then with the headers coming to close to where the shifter handle is, you've got 2 runs of 3' pipe before you reach the catback flange.

Yes, my guy is cheap. The first time I went there, I was expecting to pay $300 or so. He came highly recommended by the local NAPA guys.

No, it doesn't. I can't weld. Never touched a welder in my life, at least while it's working. That's why I pay someone to do it. Or, I've got friends that can weld. If they've got time, I'll ride over on Saturday with my parts and a 6 pack and get it done. Assuming others don't have friends that can weld is just ignorant.

THEN BUY AFTERMARKET ONES!!! Damn it, how many times do I have to say that if you can't perform what you want done, there is an option around it if the $$ is right.

Stock heads can support over 450hp, so unless you're going for some big hp, let's drop this.

No, but from my knowledge of fluid dynamics, knowledge from head porting, knowledge from rotary engine technology, I believe that I can make a pretty nice flowing housing.


Sorry, I misread your post, I though you said $400, instead of 400hp.

Nickel and dime stuff is more like hose clamps, fluids, extra bolts, fabricated parts, etc.

About 450hp

The pullout that cost $4500 was pristine with 19k verifiable miles on it. There's not many LS1s out there with 19k miles on them, let's be realistic here. I also needed it asap, so I wasn't willing to hold out for a deal. Hell, once I bought a 3rd gen Fbody with an LS1 already in it and running. They guy ran out of money and never finished the project. I drove off in it for $1600. He gave me an envelope with $10,000 worth of receipts that he had in the car. CAR, ENGINE, TRANNY, HARNESS, CRADLE, DS, FUEL SYSTEM, ALL OF IT!!! Anyway, $3000 is the going rate for a pullout around here. They'll want more than that, but they can be talked down.

$3000 for pullout
$300 for cradle
$50 for DS
$25 for DS flange
$150 for exhaust
$300 for headers

Because info on the internet is always 100% accurate. I don't care what you believe. I've done 6 swaps in RX7s alone. I know what I can buy parts for because I've done it. You haven't and are going on 100% hearsay. Are you calling me a liar?

If that's what they paid, then that's what they paid. How much have YOU paid. They're not in this thread, you are. Did their engines have mods or upgrades already done to them?

My last LS1 FC cost me $4000 to get going down the road, and that included the cost of the car. By the time I sold it (for $12k, I might add), I had closer to $8k in it, after wheels, tires, paint, engine upgrades, etc. That's that. Argue all you want. Believe me if you want. Sorry that this swap is more affordable than you thought. Sorry to burst your bubble. Not only that, sometimes, the bottom line isn't what makes or breaks a potential swapper's decision.

Snyper

Ok, now try and go on LS1tech and look for pullouts. Youll find that ebay sellers charge a premium for those pullouts. Like I said, 1250 for a complete LS6 and 800 for a transmission is what I paid. Now, lets even go with the 6k that we have to put into it..how much does a rotary motor cost to rebuild? In 100k how many more times is that rotary gonna have to be rebuild when compared to the LS1? Also, to make decent power your gonna need a single turbo kit which isnt exactly cheap with supporting mods...you never include the WHOLE picture here.