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If this is stupid I apologize and accept the flaming that may come from it, but I'm genuinely curious (and I like talking to all you other rotary engine lovers) so I thought I'd ask: why is it that the pre-RX7 rotary powered cars are so rare and hard to find in the USA? I'm absolutely yearning for (preferably) an RX2 or RX3 coupe to turn into a vintage race car, but the more I look for a project the more I notice the ads are years old and there are very few to begin with. I found some graphic representations of production numbers on another forum I'll attach to this post showing that a ton of pre-RX7 cars were made. Also, when I drive around in my daily, a black 83 RX7 GSL, plenty of older people stop and tell me all about their RX2s, 3s, or 4s that they had back in the day. I'm only 24 as of writing this and I've never seen any pre-RX7 anything in person. Have they always been uncommon cars? Where have they all gone? Why are they so hard to find? Hopefully some of y'all with more experience on this earth can give me some insight as I'm completely bamboozled!
I can only speak for my own experience here in my region ( Pacific Northwest ) - Canada , but I attribute this to what I call the 3 R's. That is rust , raced and (w)recked. Wet Winters and road salt was never kind to any old Japanese car ( how many late 70's Civics do you ever see) . Also back in my day , all Mazda Rotary cars ( and REPU) were performance bargains and many were turned into track cars or wicked street cars . That then accelerated the (w)recked final outcome unfortunately .
It makes me weep to think how many early Mazdas I bought in the day for under $1000 because the motor was on its last leg. Many people would put V8 , V6's and whatever else in just to keep the car on the road 😒. Had I known I could of added two 0's to the value of some of the R100's and RX3's that I bought back then had I kept them, my life would of been different ! I am sure any Mustang or ? Owner thinks the same .
My 2 cents on the question , I would say keep your first Gen as long as you can .
Sadly that makes all too much sense and it's as I thought and feared. It seems they were just used and discarded. They were cheap and cheerful and were treated as such. Down where I am in SoCal the only SA and FB RX7s I see are the old SCCA Spec-7 and Pro-7 race cars. A high school buddy of mine has the only other first gen I've seen, a white 80. I plan on keeping my daily stock and just enjoying it. I actually have on oof those Pro-7 cars (an 82) that I can tinker with and modify so I feel a responsibility to keep the survivor surviving!
Hopefully one day I can find an RX2 or RX3 shell to turn into a racer. I know I'm potentially not helping with that last R but that's why I hope to find a shell so as to not ruin a nice stock example!
There were also fewer of them produced. Mazda made less than 300,000 each of RX-2s and RX-3s, whereas over 400,000 of 1st gen RX-7s were produced.
Also most of them were made before 1974 and used carbon-aluminum apex seals and housings that didn't have the steel lining, both hurt engine longevity.
I have a '73 RX-3 that sat in a barn protected from the elements since 1979. The A pillar is rusted out, because Mazda didn't get paint in there.
Not that Mazda is doing all that much better in 2021, given all of the three and four year old Mazdas I see with rust issues developing. Better than the 70s but still subpar.
There were also fewer of them produced. Mazda made less than 300,000 each of RX-2s and RX-3s, whereas over 400,000 of 1st gen RX-7s were produced.
Also most of them were made before 1974 and used carbon-aluminum apex seals and housings that didn't have the steel lining, both hurt engine longevity.
Well (a little less than) 300,000 each does seem like quite a few cars between the two, butI guess when your cars are sold all over the world that really doesn't make for too many being in one spot at any given time. I kn ow something like 80% of all the first-gen RX7s were sold in the states but aside from the other SCCA racers I've met I've only ever seen one other (an SA) on the road. Also the engines having poor longevity also does make sense; I was watching some rotary engine builders talking about that specifically a few days ago. They were saying often the engine was just thrown in the bin, if not the whole car! What a damn shame...
Originally Posted by peejay
Rust, rust, and more rust.
I have a '73 RX-3 that sat in a barn protected from the elements since 1979. The A pillar is rusted out, because Mazda didn't get paint in there.
Not that Mazda is doing all that much better in 2021, given all of the three and four year old Mazdas I see with rust issues developing. Better than the 70s but still subpar.
peejay I now exactly that you mean about the factory not getting paint in some places. My dad and I have my grandma's 64 Ford Falcon. The thing is totally rotted out from where there either wasn't paint our where the paint was thin and poorly applied. It was so bad we had t source a new shell that was in the Mojave for 30 years! I hope you get that It sa real bummer its rotted out but I hope you fix it and get to out on the road! I'm dying to see one in the metal!
I guess I'll just have to save more in anticipation of soem real rust repair being needed because I'm determined to find one before they're all gone!! It's just a bummer to see they're all but already gone...
New bear in mind that Japanese companies were far, far worse for rust than American. I don't know if they didn't know or just didn't care.
There's a reason most 70s Japanese cars still extant are in Australia and New Zealand. And even then, there are lots of want ads for clean sheetmetal, and clean original cars are going up and up and up in value. I vividly recall an R100 put up for sale for $90K AUD and it was sold in a couple weeks.
Really they were worse?! That's quite an achievement, and not a positive one at that! If all they rotted out Chevy Vegas and Ford Mavericks I've had come through the shop are any baseline, worse rust prevention than that is basically no rust protection at all...
That's quite a shame but I guess that's just how the cookie has crumbled. That just means it'll either be a more difficult, more protracted search or a lot more repair work! I'm determined at this point, and when I make my mind up, sadly its seldom changed. So let the hunt begin!!! The situation does all make sense, however depressing it may be. They were either run into the ground or discarded as they broke or were replaced by the newer model and wasted away over time.
To me, the rarity seems relative. In the 90s/early 2000s these cars seemed much more common, I'd see them for sale on forums, etc. all the time. Now, it's very rare to see one for sale. Prices have seemed to skyrocket accordingly. I've even seen some would consider "basket case" cars going for 5k+.
I don't think Mazda originally designed these cars to last 50+ years. Plus, like previously mentioned, rust in non west coast states seems much worse. Heck, I had an old R100 from WA years ago, and even that one had too much rust for me at the time. It needed lots of work.
I've also heard the R100 brakes were pretty bad, which is why you can never find a R100 front bumper. Believe me, I've been looking for years. I just noticed the other day it doesn't even have a brake booster. Seems crazy, but so many of them have front end damage for that reason.
The easy answer is "50 years" How many 50 year old Japanese cars are around, not many. I have seen these production tables before and they represent total production for WORLDWIDE distribution. Total production of the R100 is about 96000 units, how many were sold in the U.S. only about 5200. 5% of the total production. The Mazda dealer network was primarily on the west coast with few dealers in the midwest and east coast. They also tended to be small and financially shaky selling few cars. This would change when the GLC and RX7 would be sold bringing bigger volumes of cars to be be sold and increasing the dealer network. There were some years Mazda made more Ford Couriers than their own Mazda branded vehicles in the mid seventies.
It seems even in Japan you won't find many early rotaries either because of the biennial Shakan inspection. In Japan, the older the car the higher it is to register it. Many old cars are junked because they become too expensive to license. Like the previous poster stated, "they weren't meant to last 50 years"
in California you can find older Toyotas and Datsuns easy enough of the same years. I'd expect that the high cost of engine service and in some places smog led to a lot of otherwise good chassis' getting scrapped
To me, the rarity seems relative. In the 90s/early 2000s these cars seemed much more common, I'd see them for sale on forums, etc. all the time. Now, it's very rare to see one for sale. Prices have seemed to skyrocket accordingly. I've even seen some would consider "basket case" cars going for 5k+.
I don't think Mazda originally designed these cars to last 50+ years. Plus, like previously mentioned, rust in non west coast states seems much worse. Heck, I had an old R100 from WA years ago, and even that one had too much rust for me at the time. It needed lots of work.
I've also heard the R100 brakes were pretty bad, which is why you can never find a R100 front bumper. Believe me, I've been looking for years. I just noticed the other day it doesn't even have a brake booster. Seems crazy, but so many of them have front end damage for that reason.
Hell if I could even find a basket case I'd take it! 5k is steep, but its a labour of love for me so the cost os just the cost at the end of it. Also considering I'm wanting to build a racer out of it a rough project would be great. I couldn't bring myself to strip and ruin a nice car that could be restored! Yeah, a lack of brakes does tend to lead to some front end damage on occasion
Originally Posted by John McBeth
The easy answer is "50 years" How many 50 year old Japanese cars are around, not many. I have seen these production tables before and they represent total production for WORLDWIDE distribution. Total production of the R100 is about 96000 units, how many were sold in the U.S. only about 5200. 5% of the total production. The Mazda dealer network was primarily on the west coast with few dealers in the midwest and east coast. They also tended to be small and financially shaky selling few cars. This would change when the GLC and RX7 would be sold bringing bigger volumes of cars to be be sold and increasing the dealer network. There were some years Mazda made more Ford Couriers than their own Mazda branded vehicles in the mid seventies.
It seems even in Japan you won't find many early rotaries either because of the biennial Shakan inspection. In Japan, the older the car the higher it is to register it. Many old cars are junked because they become too expensive to license. Like the previous poster stated, "they weren't meant to last 50 years"
I knew age would be the biggest factor, but I'm still surprised at what some to be a greater scarcity than many other 50 y/o cars I see almost daily. I understand that we here in the states didn't get many of those era of Mazdas here. BUMMER!
Originally Posted by Whizbang
in California you can find older Toyotas and Datsuns easy enough of the same years. I'd expect that the high cost of engine service and in some places smog led to a lot of otherwise good chassis' getting scrapped
The fact that they are hard to make pass smog or inspections is a huge factor, but the prevalence of Datsuns seems to suggest its possible, but there were many more of them here than of the Mazdas.
Well gentlemen I guess this means I'll just have to look a little harder. I know a guy with an RX3 drag-racer project he's willing to sell me for $11k but it would need some serious work to be a circuit racer and I can't afford it at that price anyway. THE SEARCH WILL CONTINUE!!
These car are rare now because they were mistreated. Most of these car that survived are either race or restored. The few that are still left out there are in ruff shape.. To find one you must be constantly looking and have money available.
The apex seals, mixed with gas crisis & Americans never checked the oil or coolant, like most do nowadays.
Back then you were lucky if any car reached 100k miles & most Mazda's didn't & people junked them, after catostrophic engine failure.
The junk yards had no love for a Jap car back then, they saw them as a invasion.
They all had the same problem usually, broken seals. Not many people knew how to work on them and it was expensive, It cost more to buy a reman engine or rebuilt, then what you paid for the car used most of the time.
Hell the only reason Mazda didn't go under was from all the engine replacements at dealers-mazda's cost because of brittle apex seals. I've got the paper work from my older brothers Mazda replaced under warranty engine from back in the 70's.
If I find it ill post what it would of cost if Mazda wasn't picking up the bill.
It was realistically 10 years after the RX2 & RX3 before Mazda regained any trust with how sexy & affordable the FB's were & having decent engine reliability and apex seal life.
Back in the day the only place to get engine rebuild stuff was from Mazda at dealer prices.
The best way I can describe it now is look at the RX8. It hasn't been that long since they stopped making them and you don't see many on the road, especially out here on the east coast. Im sure there's more out west. I owned a 71 RX2 in the early 1990's and most people didn't know what kind of car it was. Parts were hard to find them with no internet. Like someone else said up above, to get one you've got to be on everyday on FB marketplace, Craigslist, Here, with the money in your pocket and not leaving anything to chance. If you find one and talk to someone, get there as soon as you can if you really want one or become a rich guy.
I got into rotaries at 16, my buddy had a 79 and crashed it.from the front, I ended up buying it, replaced a bumper, nose and fender and was hooked, back about 30 years ago, you could pick up a RX2 and RX3 roller for about $500 😂, I sold a clean 73 RX3 turbocharged about 15 years ago for 10k, now expect to pay 10k-20k for a roller in descent shape that isn't a rust bucket
I've owned every one of them, 2s, 3s, 4s, Cosmo, repu and even a R100 that I've raced, I have one old school left a coupe 73 618 that I'm building to sell, we'll see what people are willing to pay when it goes up for sale
many of the guys on the west coast have these old school rides with great power plants but they only use them for car shows 🤔 much different than the east coast guys that actually race them, I always raced all of my builds and am planning a comeback with a first gen 7
09-02-21, 01:44 PM
I just noticed the other day it doesn't even have a brake booster. Seems crazy, but so many of them have front end damage for that reason.
