gerald m

Well after a lot of screwing around and checking out different options I have decided to go to a MSD ignition system using my 1st gen electronic dizzy with vacuum advance. I will just be using the L plugs and the T plugs can just go along for the ride. I really don't think emissions is a issue with what I am doing .. The following link has a very good write up on MSD ignition upgrade for the rotary with explanation right down to the color of wires inside the dizzy and what they attach to if the wiring plugs need changing .. It is listed in the search but hard to find http://www.smbaker.com/rail/msd6a.html

bumpstart

hey mate,, i have been running leading only DFI ignition from a dizzy for years
( cause i have LPG and i dont need the hassle of the trailing ignition )

i have trialled all the common methods of DFI
and compared them under duress with LPG and boost
and i can tell you that the single J109 driving the dual FC leading coil is possibly the worst of all the combos
( LPG will let you know with a huge inlet bang when the spark isnt up to scratch ! )

have tried that one with,, and without the resister under the coil pack
have also split the leading pickup signal to two 109's on the side of the dizzy and fed HEC coils ,, and also FC trailing coils


the best combos are two bosch HEC coils with two J109 igniters
( HEC coils have 0.4 ohm primary resistance [ GOOD! ] and will work igniters hard )
or even better ,,,,two HEC coils with two BIM024 igniters ( designed to work together and make a 7A spark )

which have no issue with cold engine and LPG
( and the BIM/HEC combo has no problem with 20 psi boost with LPG either )

i can lead you through this stuff ( sans the MSD rubbish )
so that the dizzy is purely for timing the signal and you have a very strong wastespark DF leading system

gerald m

i can lead you through this stuff ( sans the MSD rubbish )
so that the dizzy is purely for timing the signal and you have a very strong wastespark DF leading system[/QUOTE]

Bumpstart I'm all ears
so you are saying that the msd system isn't as good as one might think . Time is getting to be a bit of a factor I need it running for the long weekend in august and it is coming up fast
If I know what I need for parts I will get on it maybe I can get the ignitors from some local shop here .. I think maybe I can get them in Edmonton we aren't very populated with rotaries in Saskatchewan so stuff is hard to find .. Do you have the name of someone that will ship quick .. If it costs a little extra I will just suck it up and carry on .. Thanks bump I will carry on with my brakes and so on till I hear from you .. I guess I should have taught my self more on electronic ignition systems ..

gerald m

Forgot to mention I found a tiny compressor at princess auto ( about 2.5 inches long and about 1 inch across less than $5.00) I think for the lumbar support in chevy seats, it opens the port valves on the 2nd. gen 13b evenly to fully open in about 3 seconds .. Haven't tried it just yet not until I have the ignition problems worked out , but I will . I think with a dip switch on the throttle pre set to turn the compressor on it will work good .. maybe not for long periods but I only run for a few seconds ..

bumpstart

ok,, here comes a big one to make you ponder,, i will back up with some nice pics and links later

just to clear things up -

the MSD has its place on rotors that -
1- run 20 + psi boost , or run 15 + psi with water or water meth injection
2-NA engines made to make peak TQ at or above 9000 rpm

this is when the avail dwell period begins to be less and lesser favourable for maximum coil winding saturation in traditional HEI spark systems
however
the capacitive discharge ( msd ) ignition is not the ideal spark in low to mid rpm situations
,, and the multi strike thing is a band aid for the uber short duration spark
and even that that turns off before any useful rpm


add to that -
the added hardware must be reliable under the harsh vibration, dusty and wet conditions specific and unique in your application

for your situ-

simple HEI is best,,keeping cost and system redundancy to a minimum, while providing the best spark for the majority of your expected power band


-----------
here is the theory end of setting up the DFI
,, ignore the references to the trailing ignition
,, in your application you will wish to leave it deleted as it lessens the risk to engine up top at small cost of a few hp ( 2 at most )
but importantly allows you to delete the cap and button for the sake of redundancy against them flying off in vibrations of competition

so,, you need something to charge the coil/s that are hooked in Direct Fire ( DF ) to your leading ( lower ) plugs

unfortunately,,, the gen2 coil igniters are "dumb" and require a TTL signal ( on -off ) ,, of already pre-determed ( by the main ECU ) dwell period

the dizzy does not give that,, it gives a variable reluctor signal,, and needs to talk to a "smart" igniter

BIM024 is an australian market "smart" igniter
,, designed to see the variable reluctor output ( Vr) of a dizzy with the set up like the mazda one
it calculates the acceleration between the timing events
,, and initiates the coil earth to start the coil charge building at a predictive period before the next spark event in order to achieve 7A of current flow

in effect ,, its a little computer ,, and that is what the units on the side of the mazda used to do
[ mitsubishi J105 ( 1980 ) ,, and J109 ( 81- ) ]

BUT at significantly less cost than the J109,, as these BIM024 are on many many OEM ozzy vehicles

in the US,, you dont easily have BIM024,, and you MUST use something that is also "smart"

but there is many threads under the DLIDFIS stuff here to get the number for the alternative smart igniter in the US

i will look around and find it for you,, in some of those threads i have put extensive cross linked parts numbers

BTW

the wiring stick forward from the dizzy is the leading,, one pointing at carb is trailing

and you have an s4,, 65-70 Amp alternator,, top of the T plug must wire to-
( IGNITION SWITCH -- ON )

aux valves need 1.8 psi of exhaust or air pressure to operate

PS
,,, go for the oil cooler,, you may wish to use the s3 12a type beehive water/oil cooler that sits below the oil filter
( for reasons of space and redundancy against the rocks )

bumpstart

linky-

http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.p...&hilit=dlidfis

some great descriptions and pics in that lot,,, and especially good ones describing why you dont wastespark the trailing coils

( not that you will be running them )

as i said above,, you will not find the Bosch Ignition Module 024 in the US

so just take in the theory



i am using ( trailing deleted ) DFI ( with LPG )
and for my own reasons i have found the trailing redundant
- i have a longer burning homogeneous fuel ,, and need not the added complications and risks of perfecting the trailing timing for a radically different fuel
-very little to gain and much to lose

you will find with DFI you will have several options to mix and match and still make it work
,, some combos better than others
of which simply the best is matched bosch HEC 715 or 716 coils ( primary= 0.4 ohm )
driven each with its own 7A capable BIM024,, running from the dizzy signal twinned to each leading igniter

however,, if you wish to use the 2nd gen coil ,, look under the base plate for the ballast resister

take it out

with ,, primary resistance = 0.9 ohms
without = 0.45 ohm +/- a few

at the low running time,, and US equiv ( hopefully if quality ) amperage limiting smart igniters
,, you dont need it and it is a handbrake to a fast coil charge time

it was put there cause the dumb **** stock ecu ran duty dwell period,, and would otherwise burn the igniter out

this coil can also be run in this mode for short runs by a stock j109 igniter on the side of the dizzy which does look prettier
- not recommended due to cost,, or performance over bim024
( dunno about your equivs )
also the reliability of SH J109 part is usually questionable
( especially at higher revs )

bumpstart

i will just leave this here ,,, for a handy reference

remember ignore the trailing stuff

also much thanks to pattmckay and circle work for some of the great pics in the links

gerald m

I think I will try to go with the Echlin stuff as it is fairly common here. should be easier to find si I will get ( 2 ) tp102b Ignitors and 2 coils that will go with them and new wires and plugs and see what happens . Thanks for now Bumpstart I will for sure let you know what happens .. A while back you mentioned about a dude with a rotary was banned for starting his opponents eye brows on fire ,, well I just burned the tips off my lawn for about 8 ft. from the bike and it was only running on one rotor

gerald m

Well it seems to be quite hard to get any bosch or echlin parts for what I need .The echlin ignitor is over $300.00 in Saskatchewan , So I am going to try T G Farrel,s idea and go with the 4 pin GM modules 38.00 cdn. each new. And I have decided to try the stock L coil from my 86 to run just the leading untill I can find what I want for coils . I bench tested it and it seemed to fire nice ,, Just wondering if the stock L coil + post needs the resistor installed in the wiring with the GM module or can I use it without .. I tested it without and it seemed to work fine .. Thanks Gerald

bumpstart

the BIM024 are $45-90 in aus,, depending on brand,,, and we find the mazda j109 retails here for $300 +

from my experience the BIM024 are happy enough with a 0.4 ohm HEC coil
though when i have used them in the past with a twin post coil i have used them with a 0.2 ohm resister or my own making
[ cut shut a standard coil ballast resister ]
{ in a street car i have to be sure they will hang in there for long hot drives in 100 F ambient conditions }

if the US equiv has the same current limiting features then it will be OK to run them from the hotter ( resister less ) coil
especially in short haul competition with limited idle time

removing the resister will lift the rpm point at which the coils fail to achieve full saturation period

gerald m

Thanks Bumpstart you have been a big help .. It's really quite easy when I finally got a little push in the right direction. I am very close to running again .. just for ***** and giggles ... I took my old L coil removed the ignitor and installed the GM 4 prong right in the same place so it is a very nice package . If the L coil fries I bough a extra module so I can hook up two separate coils for the L ignition . Thanks again I really appreciate your time and help.. also thanks to circle_w3rk for the good diagrams

gerald m

Almost ready for another try Front and rear brakes , Exhaust , rear fender , fuel tank and pump , Leading direct fire High Energy Ignition using the 4 prong GM. module .. Next video should be running .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMcVG...yer_detailpage

chainreaction

Hey Gerald, We have been working a few bugs out. The flutter appears to have been due to a lean condition. Corrected with the fuel side of the nitrous system. Still gaining every race.
Best was a 4.711 at 72 mph, last race got down to 4.62, yesterday ran 4.596 at 74.92 mph. Starting to really make some impressive passes now. And the kid is starting to cut some lights to go with the times. (BTW, made 3 passes yesterday at 71.77 mph)

bumpstart

looking good gerald , your fab looks very good for a bloke with a home workshop
- cant wait to hear the fire up vid

personally i dont like that pod air filter
- have seen them dragged through on some hi powered engines
,, and you really need the filtered volume above the carb at revs
( and that current setup provides none )

i would be looking at fabbing a bonnet /carb hat for it and remote fit a cone filter on some ducting to get more volume

--------------

,,and then maybe you need to add some chains to the handlebar to hold the rider on during the G force black out

gerald m

Thanks bumpstart I am having a few tuning issues with my setup .. I wanted to see if my set up would work and it does to a point.. I am having problems with carb tuning which doesn't surprise me . The 500 carb seems to be too small for the job .. I can either tune it for low end or top but not both .. I think I will look for a standalone intake and carb set up .. I fried the first gm. module that I put on ( trying to fire two coils at the same time with one module seems to put to much demand on the module ) so I got two wired up to two coils and it seems to work ok but I need to deal with the the carb system .. It is a real bitch trying to find anything close to home so I guess I will need to deal with high shipping . Any suggestions on a carb set up that would do the job and not cost a fortune ? I have actually spent very little money on parts etc. so I don't have a problem buying what I need to make it work ..
Chainreaction If you keep up the pace and gain on your speeds and time your mates won't be bitching about how loud your machine is but how hard it is to beat .. Good luck to you and your boy .. My man just wrapped the spray plane around a 600 ft tower crashed and burned into a little pile of nothing All that is left of the 600 hp. Thrush is a pile of melted aluminum and the roll cage .

gerald m

Thanks bumpstart I am having a few tuning issues with my setup .. I wanted to see if my set up would work and it does to a point.. I am having problems with carb tuning which doesn't surprise me . The 500 carb seems to be too small for the job .. I can either tune it for low end or top but not both .. I think I will look for a standalone intake and carb set up .. I fried the first gm. module that I put on ( trying to fire two coils at the same time with one module seems to put to much demand on the module ) so I got two wired up to two coils and it seems to work ok but I need to deal with the the carb system .. It is a real bitch trying to find anything close to home so I guess I will need to deal with high shipping . Any suggestions on a carb set up that would do the job and not cost a fortune ? I have actually spent very little money on parts etc. so I don't have a problem buying what I need to make it work ..
Chainreaction If you keep up the pace and gain on your speeds and time your mates won't be bitching about how loud your machine is but how hard it is to beat .. Good luck to you and your boy .. My man just wrapped the spray plane around a 600 ft tower crashed and burned into a little pile of nothing All that is left of the 600 hp. Thrush is a pile of melted aluminum and the roll cage .

gerald m

Thanks bumpstart I am having a few tuning issues with my setup .. I wanted to see if it would work and it does to a point.. I am having problems with carb tuning which doesn't surprise me . The 500 carb seems to be too small for the job .. I can either tune it for low end or top but not both .. I think I will look for a standalone intake and carb set up ..
I fried the first gm. module that I put on ( trying to fire two coils at the same time with one module seems to put to much demand on the module ) so I got two wired up to two coils and it seems to work ok but I need to deal with the the carb system. .. It is a real bitch trying to find anything close to home so I guess I will need to deal with high shipping . Any suggestions on a used intake and carb set up that would do the job and not cost a fortune ? I have actually spent very little money on parts etc. so I don't have a problem buying what I need to make it run good , I have a cone filter but ran out of room finding a place for it so this is just something I found in a box of STUFF from another life .. . I am thinking about starting on my cross mount . I started this machine just to learn the basics about the little engines and I think I have put enough info together to carry on and build a real drag bike with the cross mount rotary and a sno-mo clutch .. The PREDATOR is a good example of what I want without the turbo .
Chainreaction If you keep up the pace and gain on your speeds and time your mates won't be bitching about how loud your machine is but how hard it is to beat .. Maybe just a little more power . Good luck to you and your son ..

gerald m

Thanks bumpstart I am having a few tuning issues with my setup .. I wanted to see if it would work and it does to a point.. I am having problems with carb tuning which doesn't surprise me . The 500 carb seems to be too small for the job .. I can either tune it for low end or top but not both .. I think I will look for a standalone intake and carb set up ..
I fried the first gm. module that I put on ( trying to fire two coils at the same time with one module seems to put to much demand on the module ) so I got two wired up to two coils and it seems to work ok but I need to deal with the the carb system. .. It is a real bitch trying to find anything close to home so I guess I will need to deal with high shipping . Any suggestions on a used intake and carb set up that would do the job and not cost a fortune ? I have actually spent very little money on parts etc. so I don't have a problem buying what I need to make it run good , I have a cone filter but ran out of room finding a place for it so this is just something I found in a box of STUFF from another life .. . I am thinking about starting on my cross mount . I started this machine just to learn the basics about the little engines and I think I have put enough info together to carry on and build a real drag bike with the cross mount rotary and a sno-mo clutch .. The PREDATOR is a good example of what I want without the turbo .
Chainreaction If you keep up the pace and gain on your speeds and time your mates won't be bitching about how loud your machine is but how hard it is to beat .. Maybe just a little more power . Good luck to you and your son ..

gerald m

Sorry about that my computer locked up

bumpstart

so the twin leading coil sans ballast resister toasted your 4 pin igniter?
-sorry about that gerald -my bad
i suppose your generic ones are not current limiting like a genuine bosch BIM024
NB
you must also use a conductive gel under these and use a good heatsink
and so i remote mine away from the coil,, and on alum plate with aliminox paste underside
one better is using the finned heatsinks found in the electronic stores

ultimately 2 igniters, and two individual coils is the best setup
i favour a pair the HEC715 or 716 coils as they are matched specifically for the BIM024 i use
a quick look at what your igniter came from will give hints to coils that are matched same in your US market

as for the carb tuning you have it very left of centre in terms of conventional carb setups for rotaries
the large plenum, and efi tuned lower runners is going to pose almost insurmountable issues for you


favoured paths in oz and US are sometimes very different but i will advise how we tackle NA carbed 6p engines ,, simply and effectively



my advice from here is to purchase a NEW weber 48 IDA carb
well set up these are compact, simple,, easy to work with, and get fantastic results
they are a quality carb,, used exclusively on supercars of old
these 6p engines on webers was my personal favourite combo back in the mid 90's and i know them well

i suggest the wide selection of jets is necessary as these things are fickle to altitude and to season ambients
they are delightfully simple to exchange and play

on tweakit.com you will find weber downdraft to 6p block inlet manifolds
http://www.tweakit.net/shop/product_...roducts_id=105

you will need to purchase 40 mm chokes , 190-200-205 fuel jets
120-140-160-170 air jets
( these are all $5 each but necessary to have to play the tune season to season )
then you need f11 and f2 emulsion tubes



also carb phelonic spacers
( off the inlet manifold to the carb insulator,, extras and longer studs allow you to tune the inlet length slightly )
[ you need two of everything above ,, it is a twin carb with a common fuel bowl ]
from there,, trumpets bell mounts for the carb do a bit ,, but pose issues with requiring foam socks in your application
so maybe the K@N airbox and filter may be best solution


also,, 3mm needle and seat , 3/8 hosing, dead head reg ( as these carbs run at 3-5 psi )
with a tiny bypass pill return line off it ( if you have one fitted to tank )

and if clever ,, a solenoid bypass around the reg to hit the bugger with 7-11 psi off the pump when on WOT


you will find all this stuff uber compact and very easy to work with especially tuning and swapping jets

NB
in oz we can get adapter plates cut in alum that suit the FC inlet pattern
they are cut in either 6p or 4 port ( turbo ) pattern
to suit either 12a,, or 13b carbed inlet manifolds

this allows you to select the mazda 4 barrel carbs and have stock looking setups
- not that these are anything like the performance you will get from the tuned weber and its short runner setup

gerald m

[QUOTE=bumpstart;10731061]so the twin leading coil sans ballast resister toasted your 4 pin igniter?
-sorry about that gerald -my bad
Bumpstart you should never be sorry when you are trying to help someone The module was my own doing , just to darn many things to experiment with , It did work for a while .. Now I have 2 mods. feeding 2 coils and yes they are mounted on a proper finned heat sink with the jell supplied with the mods. they are cheap 38.00 ea.
I agree what you say about the carb and it is very tempting . I figure I can get most everything needed for around $800. CDN . I have never owned a weber but I am open minded to things that do the job . A little more convincing should do the trick , Shipping is such a bitch I need to buy fairly close or deal with someone that pays the shipping.. You are also right about the new stuff , a used carb can have all sorts of things wrong with it .. I still want to get the engine running well before I start the new frame so keep telling me all the good things about the carb setup .. For future thoughts rather than considering turbos and what not I think I would lean toward nitrous for a little extra go if I ever need extra go .. .. You can't see anything but I know predator has a turbo, you can hear it winding down after he shuts the engine off ..

gerald m

Last run with this fuel system .. I just can't supply enough air and fuel at the same time .. Really not a surprise weber is about 200 bucks more than a Holley .. I have never run anything other than a holley maybe it's time to try something new .. Bumpstart :: Suggests a weber 48 IDA I like that idea . I would like to hear from some people that use them and what you think compared to the holley Besides the price ,, I already know the Weber costs more .. By the way what does way left of center mean ?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR3Kk...yer_detailpage

chainreaction

I ran a 650 Holley square bore for 6 years. Changed over to the Edelbrock 600 cfm spread bore this year. I am very pleased with it so far. Just tends to run lean on the top end. I am working on adjusting that with the nitros/fuel jetting. I do have to make sure my K&N air filter is always clean. It drops 4-600 rpm's as soon as it starts to get clogged up with dust. About every other race weekend.
Also, I ran an MSD 6-AL for about half of last season (just on the lead coil), I picked up about 400 rpm's with it, but nothing on the et or mph. I pulled the 6-AL last fall and just run the MSD Blaster coils now. I have turned it as high as 10,600 rpm's (with belt slippage!) But average 7,900 on a clean run.
We are currently running heads up against v8 cars that are pushing 500-600 hp.

bumpstart

ignition is working very well ,, congrats

my experience with the holley product is a little coloured
as in oz we don't have the same parts or knowledge base for them,
, and the racing beat stuff was expensive and their specialized rotary holley tricks exclusive,, and the very nice inlet manifolds did not fit well in RHD vehicles

my limited experience ( on a 6p too ! ) a long time ago was with a 465
and it was not happy with all sorts of issues , esp bowl surge and staging / delay
( that racing beat carbs would be modded around )

i would rate the weber IDA as much simpler to deal with, originally competition oriented
much more compact , and much more rotary exp and backup for them to draw from world wide

they sound and look great and best of all they go well when sorted



have you looked at the empi 48/51 for a better price maybe?

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

That think is insane! I hope you are wearing earplugs.