Dak

I used to always want to do a turbo conversion but anymore I'm not so sure. Why did you guys decide to stay n/a or if you were once turbocharged why did you ditch it? What are the advantages. Is reliability the main advantage. For the the price and work it seems to take to make in excess of 200whp on a n/a just doing a turbo conversion would initially be cheaper.

That being said I am thinking of staying n/a. I only wanted about 250 to 300whp and I think I would be happy with 200 as I like the car just would like abit more power. Also call me cheap but being able to run 87 octane is nice. From digging around on here it seems ITS cars are making around this( 180-200) on stock ports and manifolds and from a thread I had in the PFC forum Banzia racing has tuned a customers ITS car and got 199whp.

Anyway I've been thinking lately when my motor goes of doing a med to large street port on my next one, getting a PowerFC and calling it a day. I know I've over simplified as there is ecu and exhaust tuning involved but you get the point.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

personally i hate having to deal with all the plumbing on a turbo, all the IC pipes, and water lines and stuff, i'm building a turbo currently and it sucks, NA would have been running weeks ago.

secondly, i actually dislike the power delivery on a turbo, most of the time. or i really like how linear the NA power is delivered, and a turbo just doesn't have that. once you put enough turbo on the car to make it respond nicely, its usually way too fast also. although i live near curvy mountain roads, if i lived on a flat grid, like Tucson, this would be different.

thirdly, there is a tendency for turbo people to put 97 gauges in the car to monitor things, and then driving the car sucks, cause you're just looking at gauges, and when they move its scary, and when other people see 14 day glo gauges on the A pillars, they think you're a ricer, and they are right, its embarrassing.

so i like NA better, its just more fun, and FD's are embarrassing

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

each has their benefits

n/a is the most reliable way to make power, everyone with a turbo eventually blows an engine or 3.

turbo is much easier to make more power when you want it.

n/a is a challenge for some people. porting, intake, exhaust and tuning combinations always give different results.

n/a's sacrifice noise for power. every car over 200whp is almost always ear bleedingly loud, with some exceptions but rarely very streetable without notice.

Pettersen

iTrader: (1)

Less stuff to go wrong, less stuff to replace when it does go wrong. More than enough power potential for what i will actually use.

I like the idea of having 200+whp and focusing on aero, suspension and driver skill to be faster, than the other car's, not just rely on raw power.

Sgt.Stinkfist

iTrader: (6)

ffr the reliability of it, just left stuff to go wrong or break. Less heat in the engine means seals and springs will last longer, less torque helps keep my trans in 1 piece and hurts my axle less


plus i like the sound

scrapp

iTrader: (1)

because its cheap as *****!

Easiest way to get my rotary fix until I can plan my money situation better. Until then, getting my rotary fix for cheap.

TheAnalogKiddd

iTrader: (2)

I've had 4 FC's over the past 10 yrs; 2 TII's and 2 n/a's.

When I think of the most fun I've had, I've been in one of the n/a's and when I think about the most frustration I've had, it's been because of the turbo's. I enjoy driving my cars more than working on them, but then again, I'm not the best mechanic.

Oh, and what scrapp said: they're cheap!

23Racer

I like my ITB's. However if and when I grenade my NA BP 13b, I will more than likely stick a (cough, cough...) an NA V8 in it.


Runs away and hides.

Eric

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

yeah well... when i drive my n/a cars they just feel too damn slow.

the RX8 is kinda ok but still(mainly because it is quiet, gets "okay" mileage compared to other 200whp n/a rotaries, yet drives itself).. been in way too many 400+hp turbo rotaries to enjoy n/a power any longer.

don't get me wrong, every time in boost i wait for that cough of death in every turbo rotary car. one little problem and it's game over.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

maybe because my introduction to rotaries were the Gen I Rx-7. i don't know. i don't have any aversions for turbo rotaries (but i've never owned one either, so ...) as a matter of fact building one IS a goal of mine. however, i've always been in the trenches with the engine itself. that's where my passion lies. it's simplicity is alluring and it's complexity is seductive. it is that allure that makes me look past all my frustrations with my Rx-8 (as a whole car). a N/A rotary just feels like home to me.

peejay

Why would I want a turbo?

ioTus

iTrader: (5)

Sums it up perfectly.

Although in general I find turbos rather peaky in their power deliver, I will say that on certain cars turbo can work great - my WRX wagon was rather awesome. I plan on getting that back as a DD

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

me too, i find that straight line speed only isn't as fun as something more balanced. this might have something to do with geography though, i'm either on a twisty mountain road, or stuck behind a toyota doing 12mph in a 35.

if i lived in vegas though, where its kind of straight and flat, maybe a turbo would be more fun

Red95FD

iTrader: (3)

I have a GTUs also Dak and I thought about a turbo transplant but decided I wanted to keep it n/a. I did it for the reliability and I wanted a fast 2nd gen. There are not very many n/a 2nd gens with over 200 hp but I will have one with 230-240 hp when it is finished and it ain't cheap. Of course I don't have the skills to build one so I'm paying for it. Most guys would think it's a waste of money but it's what I want. So do what you want and can afford and you will be happy.

Dak

Thanks for the replies. I know I will be n/a till motor time as I want to see haw many miles I get on this one as it was my first build. Some said cheap which I agree in stock trim or with basic bolt ons, but to get the numbers I would like will take some dollars( standalone ,ITB's maybe) . I guess that was more my original question. To those people making in excess of 200whp why n/a when the same effort/money on a turbo setup would net much more power. I think you've gave me the answer though, power delivery, for a challenge, not having to worry about when it randomly will go boom.

ioTus

iTrader: (5)

Yah as was mentioned above - there's more to it than peak HP numbers.

All about the overall driving experience for me, and I prefer the twisties, ups and downs much more than drag racing.

A turbo has to re-spool every time you lay off the gas.

peejay

The way I see it, N/A is too much power, so a turbo is WAY too much power...

You know how people who like to talk big say "It's not enough power until you're spinning the tires at the end of the longest straight"? That's where I'm at now.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i'm building a turbo car right now, and my last one is a 12A PP, and the PP is easier. it did take a while to get the carb dialed in, but the PP is really simple, and the only real trick parts are the rotor housings, which i bought.

the P port wasn't even expensive considering, although i did get a few good deals.

in a race car this is 100% true. we did timing and scoring for NASA for years, and the big HP guys are usually slow. for example we could enter our non vtek honda in the porsche turbo class, and podium finish, because even though those guys have 3x the hp we do at the same weight they can't drive.

fidelity101

iTrader: (11)

thats why

and all the other reasons mentioned regarding application and driver skill

Dak

Just out of curiousoty how streetable is a PP? Was yours track only? I guess like a bridge getting the exhaust quiet enough would be a problem, but what is driveability like? Is it driveable in traffic?

Dak

Upon rethinking I guess cheap is still accurate. For what I would pay for a J-spec eng/trans combo and then rebuild said eng I could rebuild and port mine plus get a standalone. I have good spare set of end/int. housings. With the the turbo I still have to work out the driveshaft,intercooler,afm,map sensor, and ecu. So I apologize if I discounted the cheap comments.

fidelity101

iTrader: (11)

I spent 0 dollars on my engine build. I tore apart 5 motors that I paid next to nothing or beer for then kept the parts I needed for my build then sold the parts I didn't and scrapped the stuff that was garbage and that funded all the misc gaskets and things needed to assemble my current motor. That was 3 years ago, still runs and still races.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

well its track only because to drive it on the street i need a smog, and that's not happening, i had visions, but i'm not sure it'll even pass in my imagination anymore.

the noise is kind of a problem, but PJ put the RB powerpulse muffler on his car and back pressure is ok, so maybe that problem is fixed. its got a borla now, and my friend has a borla on his stock port FC, and we both have the same DB reading at the track (103+ if its cloudy, its under if its clear).

driveability, is way batter than you're think, it idles @1000, the engine was happy at 700, but the carb can't do it. part throttle is a little touchy, but its like an FC with a TPS that's out of adjustment, and not some bucking fire breathing monster.

i did spend a lot of time on the carb though, a stock engine will run at any AFR between 10:1 and 15:1, but the P port was really only happy between 12.5:1 and 13.5, outside of that it gets mean and nasty.

the engine is in an ex pro7 car, and i would have thought that combo would be a really hairy chested brute, but the whole thing is actually kind of easy and tame. steering is light, the ride is nice, it had mild understeer, the engine makes more Tq at 2000rpm than a stock 12A does ever, and its not loud inside the car either (it is outside).

jorx7

iTrader: (11)

[QUOTE
From digging around on here it seems ITS cars are making around this( 180-200) on stock ports and manifolds and from a thread I had in the PFC forum Banzia racing has tuned a customers ITS car and got 199whp.
Anyway I've been thinking lately when my motor goes of doing a med to large street port on my next one, getting a PowerFC and calling it a day. I know I've over simplified as there is ecu and exhaust tuning involved but you get the point.[/QUOTE]

before i did my t2 full bridge port n/a build. i had my 90 n/a tuned with my apexi pfc and banzai adaptor, i put out 190 on a stock block, just bolt on mods, intake,racing full exhaust, its just fun to drive, my friends have gone through 2 or more motors on their fds,and t2s, just would hate to spend money for a build and a wire gets loose and boom there goes your motor, n/a's are bullet proof, was at 5 grand a wire came loose on fuel pump car just died, found the wire fixed it started right up. if i was turbo motor would have blown,

peejay

Weird thing, going from the factory "ping pong" intake to the Holley manifold made my car a lot more insensitive to that, even though I also stepped up to bridged primaries. I think the problem was batch fire injection, so one rotor would get starved of fuel a little.

It still wants to cruise at 13.5-14:1 but that's a full ratio better than with the OEM intake. Retarding timing allows me to run leaner, while advancing timing needs more fuel to run more stable, at a given manifold pressure. It's kind of a balancing act between wanting to retard the timing enough that it's not running rich and fuel-washing the sides the whole time, and advancing the timing enough that the engine feels peppy... I think I have timing at 22 degrees now, and it only adds a quart of fuel to the oil every 1500-2000 miles, which is way better than the old engines did.

That's all under cruise. Under load (~80kpa and up) it's perfectly happy running at 15:1 and leaner.