Starting with a Standalone
01-31-11, 06:13 PM
#51
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The guage isn't there just for tuning, it is there as a monitoring system Incase anything happens. for example if you start reading lean mixtures, is your fuel pump up to par still ? is your fuel pressure regulator working properly, if your too rich, are your air filters clean ? are your spark plugs getting worn down?
And I would argue you really need a AFR gauge and EGT LESS than the others. Any change in EGT or AFR that you can actually use will only be easily visible looking over a log after the car is parked.
3 cars with standalones, only one has an AFR gauge. The rest (and that one included) store it on an SD card where it can be put to use. Note, you definitely NEED some kind of AFR logging, just not a display in the dash.
02-03-11, 07:46 PM
#52
The MS2 which is prob the one to get for best support right now cost 250$
The innovate LC-1 wideband kit is 210$
GM Air temp and Coolant Temp Sensors 40$
12' DIYautotune wiring harness 70$
4 conductor dual shielded wire for CAS 30$
Heat shrink tubing and other connectors 20$
So that puts you at a total of about 620$ say 700$ to be on the safer side. That is all you really need to get up and going with. The EGT isn't all that needed and prob about 70% or more of people that have a standalone don't have EGT guages.
I'm not seeing a list of gauges to go along with every sensor, which is fine by me because I don't want to clutter up my dash too much.
So I need to get the proper sensors installed, run the wire harness into the standalone, and start driving around while datalogging. Then analyze and tune; drive, analyze, tune...
So the gauges are NOT needed for tuning. But once the tuning phase is complete, I should be able to ignore the datalogging. But that is when I should stick in a gauge or two as a monitor. If I periodically look at the gauge and it seems normal...I'm good. If things don't feel right, I should watch the gauge a little closer. And if the gauge is going weird, then refer to the little black box...the standalone.
Is that the way to do it?
And thanks for the offer. I need all the help I can get.
02-03-11, 08:13 PM
#53
Old [Sch|F]ool
That's why my gauges are in line of sight of the in-car camera.
3 cars with standalones, only one has an AFR gauge. The rest (and that one included) store it on an SD card where it can be put to use. Note, you definitely NEED some kind of AFR logging, just not a display in the dash.
Now, were I to try to tune a non-standalone car, I'd definitely have a wideband gauge. I'm planning on one of those along with an EGT for my Volkswagen, which will use a complex OEM version of K-Jetronic. (Audi 200 10v turbo engine with attendant fuel/ignition system) Then again, tuning an OEM system by external tweaks is measuring with a micrometer and cutting with a sledgehammer. I can't tweak discrete cells for, say, ignition timing at 7psi boost and 3000rpm, so I don't need to log information much more complex than "generally needs more fuel".
02-03-11, 10:57 PM
#54
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if you pick something weird, then YOU have to spend a bunch of time learning how to use the new ecu vs tuning the damn car.
02-04-11, 02:23 AM
#55
Yes that should be all that is needed to get you going (actually I forgot to mention that you would have to drill and tap new holes for the sensors, so if you can't do that yourself that another say 50$ for both or so)
The dyno tuning will come way down the line if you even want to do it. Its not really a necessity. Martin's car has only been street tuned and it runs pretty darn strong. The way its normally done is do as much as you can on the street (or track) than take it in to the dyno. Other wise you're going to be wasting alot of money that you could be doing for free on the roads. Dyno tuning is more fine tuning than anything else truthfully.
You don't need alot of the guages because they are displayed through your laptop and can be seen there if really needed.
I always like to have a wideband guage hooked up, the reason being is that I find sometime getting it working properly with the standalone take a bit of setting up properly. At least like this its going by its own thing and its more accurate.
John I think what you need to do is come out in one of our car sometime and we'll show you how everything works. I think you'll get a better idea like that.
I'm not listing guages because I personally, just have everything hooked up to my carputer. Here's what it looks like on my carputer:
The dyno tuning will come way down the line if you even want to do it. Its not really a necessity. Martin's car has only been street tuned and it runs pretty darn strong. The way its normally done is do as much as you can on the street (or track) than take it in to the dyno. Other wise you're going to be wasting alot of money that you could be doing for free on the roads. Dyno tuning is more fine tuning than anything else truthfully.
You don't need alot of the guages because they are displayed through your laptop and can be seen there if really needed.
I always like to have a wideband guage hooked up, the reason being is that I find sometime getting it working properly with the standalone take a bit of setting up properly. At least like this its going by its own thing and its more accurate.
John I think what you need to do is come out in one of our car sometime and we'll show you how everything works. I think you'll get a better idea like that.
I'm not listing guages because I personally, just have everything hooked up to my carputer. Here's what it looks like on my carputer:
Now we're talkin'. So this should be my shopping list of what to get? And now I can budget what it will cost to gather these parts. (Plus tack on a few bucks for dyno tuning, right?)
I'm not seeing a list of gauges to go along with every sensor, which is fine by me because I don't want to clutter up my dash too much.
So I need to get the proper sensors installed, run the wire harness into the standalone, and start driving around while datalogging. Then analyze and tune; drive, analyze, tune...
So the gauges are NOT needed for tuning. But once the tuning phase is complete, I should be able to ignore the datalogging. But that is when I should stick in a gauge or two as a monitor. If I periodically look at the gauge and it seems normal...I'm good. If things don't feel right, I should watch the gauge a little closer. And if the gauge is going weird, then refer to the little black box...the standalone.
Is that the way to do it?
From what I've read, it is more important to pick a standalone that is locally supported, rather than something that is highly recommended by others, but foreign to your local tuner guys.
And thanks for the offer. I need all the help I can get.
I'm not seeing a list of gauges to go along with every sensor, which is fine by me because I don't want to clutter up my dash too much.
So I need to get the proper sensors installed, run the wire harness into the standalone, and start driving around while datalogging. Then analyze and tune; drive, analyze, tune...
So the gauges are NOT needed for tuning. But once the tuning phase is complete, I should be able to ignore the datalogging. But that is when I should stick in a gauge or two as a monitor. If I periodically look at the gauge and it seems normal...I'm good. If things don't feel right, I should watch the gauge a little closer. And if the gauge is going weird, then refer to the little black box...the standalone.
Is that the way to do it?
From what I've read, it is more important to pick a standalone that is locally supported, rather than something that is highly recommended by others, but foreign to your local tuner guys.
And thanks for the offer. I need all the help I can get.
02-04-11, 05:48 AM
#56
Old [Sch|F]ool
You can use the Mazda coolant temp sender with no changes. It reads ten degrees off, but that's acceptable.
The air temp sender is another story, but the GM unit can just be screwed into a hole in the intake boot. (That's really where it SHOULD go for vibration reasons) I'm not using a BAC, and the sensor screws right into where the BAC's elbow needs to go on a GSL-SE intake. On an FC, I just used a Unibit on the flat part of the elbow. It's pipe threads and plastic, so you only need to get the hole sort-of the right diameter, no need to tap.
The air temp sender is another story, but the GM unit can just be screwed into a hole in the intake boot. (That's really where it SHOULD go for vibration reasons) I'm not using a BAC, and the sensor screws right into where the BAC's elbow needs to go on a GSL-SE intake. On an FC, I just used a Unibit on the flat part of the elbow. It's pipe threads and plastic, so you only need to get the hole sort-of the right diameter, no need to tap.
02-04-11, 01:53 PM
#57
Although you could use the stock temp sensor from Mazda, not all of them will read about 10 degrees off right now. Most of these sensors are now over 20 years old and it would be a hit and miss. Knowing that this controls the cold start up enrichment which is one of the worst things to tune btw because you only get one shot at it when its really cold then you have to wait a whole other day.
And also ontop of that if that sensor fails and your always in cold enrichment without you really knowing, you'd be wasting alot of fuel and power would be cut down. Thats if you can even get the car started that day without flooding it. For the price of a new one (and if that one fails its available on most selves at parts stores), I think its worth the piece of mind.
And also ontop of that if that sensor fails and your always in cold enrichment without you really knowing, you'd be wasting alot of fuel and power would be cut down. Thats if you can even get the car started that day without flooding it. For the price of a new one (and if that one fails its available on most selves at parts stores), I think its worth the piece of mind.
You can use the Mazda coolant temp sender with no changes. It reads ten degrees off, but that's acceptable.
The air temp sender is another story, but the GM unit can just be screwed into a hole in the intake boot. (That's really where it SHOULD go for vibration reasons) I'm not using a BAC, and the sensor screws right into where the BAC's elbow needs to go on a GSL-SE intake. On an FC, I just used a Unibit on the flat part of the elbow. It's pipe threads and plastic, so you only need to get the hole sort-of the right diameter, no need to tap.
The air temp sender is another story, but the GM unit can just be screwed into a hole in the intake boot. (That's really where it SHOULD go for vibration reasons) I'm not using a BAC, and the sensor screws right into where the BAC's elbow needs to go on a GSL-SE intake. On an FC, I just used a Unibit on the flat part of the elbow. It's pipe threads and plastic, so you only need to get the hole sort-of the right diameter, no need to tap.
02-11-11, 04:59 PM
#58
Old [Sch|F]ool
Although you could use the stock temp sensor from Mazda, not all of them will read about 10 degrees off right now. Most of these sensors are now over 20 years old and it would be a hit and miss. Knowing that this controls the cold start up enrichment which is one of the worst things to tune btw because you only get one shot at it when its really cold then you have to wait a whole other day.
And also ontop of that if that sensor fails and your always in cold enrichment without you really knowing,
Thats if you can even get the car started that day without flooding it.
At any rate, the only temp senders I see fail are GM and VW temp senders. I'll trust a 25 year old Mazda sensor to a new GM one.
02-13-11, 09:56 AM
#60
Engine, Not Motor
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John, if your wiring harness is in good shape, then there is no need to even rewire the car. The MS PNP unit will plug directly into the S4 wiring harness with only a few minor mods to the harness. That way, you can swap between the MS and the stock ECU so that all troubleshooting and tuning can happen on the weekend, but you can swap the stock ECU back in if you need to get to work on Monday.
Most of the work in installing the MS PNP is modding the actual MS box:
http://www.diyautotune.com/diypnp/index.html
The thing about standalones is that it is a process. Even with two experienced people working on the car, it is an entire weekend to wire one up. And at the end of that weekend, fatigue starts to set in. You really have to figure on having the car down for at least a week. Tuning is also a process. It is quick to get the car starting and driving. The rest is at least a few hours on the street datalogging and tweaking, then time on the dyno (several hours) to tune under load.
As far as sensors, GM all the way. The Mazda sensors are old and should be replaced. The GM sensors are far cheaper and more widely available. Very easily retrofitted without even removing the water pump housing. The IAT then threads into the plastic NA intake elbow and Bob's your uncle.
http://www.aaroncake.net/RX-7/megasq...allSensors.asp
Most of the work in installing the MS PNP is modding the actual MS box:
http://www.diyautotune.com/diypnp/index.html
The thing about standalones is that it is a process. Even with two experienced people working on the car, it is an entire weekend to wire one up. And at the end of that weekend, fatigue starts to set in. You really have to figure on having the car down for at least a week. Tuning is also a process. It is quick to get the car starting and driving. The rest is at least a few hours on the street datalogging and tweaking, then time on the dyno (several hours) to tune under load.
As far as sensors, GM all the way. The Mazda sensors are old and should be replaced. The GM sensors are far cheaper and more widely available. Very easily retrofitted without even removing the water pump housing. The IAT then threads into the plastic NA intake elbow and Bob's your uncle.
http://www.aaroncake.net/RX-7/megasq...allSensors.asp
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 02-13-11 at 09:58 AM.
02-13-11, 01:49 PM
#61
Old [Sch|F]ool
I really don't buy the "they're old so they should be replaced." The same argument could also be made for the rest of the car. To each his own, though.
02-13-11, 10:51 PM
#62
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+1. the reason the GM sensors are so widely available is because they go bad.... parts stores stock the parts that they sell.
02-14-11, 09:08 AM
#63
Engine, Not Motor
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Just because a part is old, doesn't mean that they are automatically bad. I have to shake my head at all those people who eliminate the metering oil pump because it "might" fail. Yet at the same time they are running around on 10 year old belts. 
However these sensors are getting very old at this point. Why not replace them at the same time? It only adds about $40 to the project and about half an hour of drilling and tapping.
Plus, at the same time, it is nice to get off the Mazda sensors and go to a much more generic part. If/when it fails, a replacement is available at any auto parts store for no money as opposed to the Mazda sensor which is only used in a few vehicles and almost always special order.
The first Megasquirt I ever installed on an RX-7 (back in the days of the 2.2 board w/flyback circuit and external VR conditioner board) suffered from an intermittent temp sensor which caused the ECU to randomly dump fuel. It was maddening to figure out until it was found in a datalog.
02-14-11, 09:27 AM
#64
http://www.mazdatrix.com/getprice.as...m=18-8400-8574
$38 at Mazdatrix for an OEM water temp sensor. You could probably get it a little cheaper from Ray Crowe/Malloy Mazda. The OEM sensor is made by Denso. You can see "DENSO" on it.
$38 at Mazdatrix for an OEM water temp sensor. You could probably get it a little cheaper from Ray Crowe/Malloy Mazda. The OEM sensor is made by Denso. You can see "DENSO" on it.
02-14-11, 10:42 AM
#65
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I agree in a sense. Just because a part is old, doesn't mean that they are automatically bad. I have to shake my head at all those people who eliminate the metering oil pump because it "might" fail. Yet at the same time they are running around on 10 year old belts.
Mazda sensor which is only used in a few vehicles and almost always special order.
.
Just because a part is old, doesn't mean that they are automatically bad. I have to shake my head at all those people who eliminate the metering oil pump because it "might" fail. Yet at the same time they are running around on 10 year old belts. Mazda sensor which is only used in a few vehicles and almost always special order.
.
ive learned though, that even though Mazda used the same air and water temp sensors in everything from 1986 to the mid 90's, that number of cars is probably fewer than chevette production in 1 year, GM is WAY bigger, even bankrupt.
actually since you brought it up, the late 90's protege (97ish?) has a 3 wire coolant temp sensor. 2 are for the ecu and the 3rd is for the gauge on the dash. this would free up a spot on the motor for an aftermarket or something.
02-17-11, 10:49 PM
#66
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Hey John Im a local guy too we met awhile back at the spring meet I had a Black on black 91
I've had a 6 port turbo, JDM T2 motor and cause of rising gas prices Im going to stay N/a with the 89 I just picked up, im selling my turbo motor and putting my haltech on my N/a car to see what I get out of it I just installed my wideband today and the haltech will go in this weekend good to see another local guy doing it
The only thing I need now is to get a header made up equal length 83" header with a nice collector
Unfortunately because I have an S5 and A haltech E6X I'll have to run premix, i don't intend to rebuild my motor either (it only has 3000km's lol)
I've had a 6 port turbo, JDM T2 motor and cause of rising gas prices Im going to stay N/a with the 89 I just picked up, im selling my turbo motor and putting my haltech on my N/a car to see what I get out of it I just installed my wideband today and the haltech will go in this weekend good to see another local guy doing it
The only thing I need now is to get a header made up equal length 83" header with a nice collector
Unfortunately because I have an S5 and A haltech E6X I'll have to run premix, i don't intend to rebuild my motor either (it only has 3000km's lol)
02-19-11, 08:20 AM
#67
I've had a 6 port turbo, JDM T2 motor and cause of rising gas prices Im going to stay N/a with the 89 I just picked up, im selling my turbo motor and putting my haltech on my N/a car to see what I get out of it ...I don't intend to rebuild my motor either (it only has 3000km's lol)
02-19-11, 03:14 PM
#68
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Both will give you good gains along with a header On my last motor I did an emanage blue with a header and leaned it out and added some timing made it a helluva lot faster in the top end
It ran a 15.7 @ 90 mph with a 2.6 60' and horrible wheel hop
It ran a 15.7 @ 90 mph with a 2.6 60' and horrible wheel hop
02-21-11, 12:41 AM
#69
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I just started my install I have all manifolds off, harness out and I'm just debating on if im going to keep the rats nest to run the Vdi, 5/6th ports
Also anyone know if the haltech can run the Solenoids directly or do i need to setup relays I can't imagine the solenoids needing very much current
Also anyone know if the haltech can run the Solenoids directly or do i need to setup relays I can't imagine the solenoids needing very much current
02-22-11, 09:57 PM
#71
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I finished my install and got it running! woot, I found out that the haltech can directly run the Solenoids
I wouldnt want to run them on a Rpm switch Cause what if im on the dyno and find they make more power opening at 5500 instead of 6500
I wouldnt want to run them on a Rpm switch Cause what if im on the dyno and find they make more power opening at 5500 instead of 6500
02-22-11, 11:30 PM
#72
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oh btw if you do go dyno, make a run with it open and a run with it closed, when you lay both graphs on top of each other, you can see when to open it
02-23-11, 05:29 PM
#73
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIc84SdVnCE
Ca mon john its your turn to get it running on a Standalone!
Ca mon john its your turn to get it running on a Standalone!
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