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Microtech Proper way to zero timing

Old 09-29-03, 05:25 PM
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Proper way to zero timing

as ive read in a different posts below there was a couple of guys confused on zeroing timing on there FC ....

1. set static timing to "0"
2. remark your crank pulley 5mm to the right of the Yellow mark (use "white out")
3. lock timing
4. pick up timing from L1

the FC pulley is 360mm


this is how we set timing on all our 13B/RE's .. the key is to remark your pulley!


good luck!
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Old 09-29-03, 06:52 PM
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The reason there are people confused by the timing issue with the microtech is because the manual tells you to 0 the timing based on the 5 degree yellow mark on the pully ...
So which is it? Br7 tells us to ignore the fact that the microtech reports TDC with idle lock on, and set it to the 5 degree mark as it states in the manual..
however now you state that you should mark TDC on the pully and set timing to that instead?
So which is it?
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Old 09-29-03, 07:02 PM
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We mark all the pullies to zero timing... accurately marking the pulley is the best bet. if you use the 5 ATDC while your microtech is set at 0 you will be 5 degrees off.


good luck!



Originally posted by Chris Ng
The reason there are people confused by the timing issue with the microtech is because the manual tells you to 0 the timing based on the 5 degree yellow mark on the pully ...
So which is it? Br7 tells us to ignore the fact that the microtech reports TDC with idle lock on, and set it to the 5 degree mark as it states in the manual..
however now you state that you should mark TDC on the pully and set timing to that instead?
So which is it?
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Old 09-29-03, 07:30 PM
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The point is to make the static value and the timing light match - when you set the timing lock on, the Microtech sets the timing to whatever the static value is. No need to mark your pulley or any other such nonsense. An LT configured for a rotary comes with a default static value of 5 deg BTDC - lock the timing and set according to the mark on the pulley.

The "proper" way to set your timing is to throw a light on the car and set timing based on what's noted in the manual. Nothing more, nothing less.

Brandon
BR7 Racing
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Old 09-30-03, 06:32 AM
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Everyone has a differing opinion of this.Me personally,I always re mark the pulley so I have a true zero mark instead of the -5deg mark that comes from the factory.I prefer to have the microtech screen saying zero & the crank be on zero.It saves a lot of confusion.
Domenic from Microtech and a lot of other aussie tuners call -5deg zero & set all their ecu's up like this.It's simply a matter of personal choice.
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Old 09-30-03, 10:26 AM
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i guess by you quoting "proper" your sort of disagreeing with me and second guessing me...

Well if you want to tell your customers that the way you tell them to zero timing is correct then thats fine... Your timing will be off and not be zeroed correctly...theres a difference between BTDC and ATDC
plain and simple!







Originally posted by No7Yet
The point is to make the static value and the timing light match - when you set the timing lock on, the Microtech sets the timing to whatever the static value is. No need to mark your pulley or any other such nonsense. An LT configured for a rotary comes with a default static value of 5 deg BTDC - lock the timing and set according to the mark on the pulley.

The "proper" way to set your timing is to throw a light on the car and set timing based on what's noted in the manual. Nothing more, nothing less.

Brandon
BR7 Racing
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Old 09-30-03, 12:10 PM
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Well at least we're sort of getting to the botom of this.

I want my Microtech to read 0 when the timing is actually 0. For this to happen I need to remark my pulley? Not a huge deal, and not all that difficult in the end.

However if what no7yet says is true then doing this will result in an "off" reading again. Can anyone else verify that when the timing lock is placed on the car the Microtech places the timing at 5 degree BTDC. From the sounds of it however this is not the case.
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Old 09-30-03, 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by A-Spec Tuning
i guess by you quoting "proper" your sort of disagreeing with me and second guessing me...

Well if you want to tell your customers that the way you tell them to zero timing is correct then thats fine... Your timing will be off and not be zeroed correctly...theres a difference between BTDC and ATDC
plain and simple!
Excuse me - I meant ATDC; it's not often I need to type it, and I type fast. Typos happen.

In any case, the point is (as I've said before) to make the static value match whatever timing reference you're using. You could conceivably set the static timing to 15 degrees ATDC and use the trailing mark for the leadings if you really wanted to. Or you could set the static value to zero and remark your pulley. Or you could leave the static value as it comes from Microtech and use the leading mark. It doesn't matter, just as long as they match up.

Brandon
BR7 Racing
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Old 09-30-03, 01:45 PM
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whatever you do guys dont listen to how BR7 zero's timing .. this has been brought up many times before and he doesnt seem to understand what everyone seem to say..
if you mark your pulley like rxeng and a-spec say, you will be right on

Mikey D.
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Old 09-30-03, 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by H2o
whatever you do guys dont listen to how BR7 zero's timing .. this has been brought up many times before and he doesnt seem to understand what everyone seem to say..
if you mark your pulley like rxeng and a-spec say, you will be right on

Mikey D.
Then would you care to explain how I'm wrong?

Here's how I see it: if the ECU fires at a specified timing (say, X deg ATDC, set by the static value on screen 30), and the light matches up (it flashes such that the timing pin is pointing at the X deg ATDC mark), it doesn't matter how you get there. If it makes you sleep better to have all the numbers zero, then more power to ya. I can see how it would avoid ATDC/BTDC confusion, but I would rather not cause headaches for anyone who comes in after me. As Jon said, it's a matter of personal preference.

Also, I made a mistake - the trailing mark on the stock FC pulley is 20 degrees ATDC.

Brandon
BR7 Racing

Last edited by No7Yet; 09-30-03 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 09-30-03, 02:23 PM
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im sort of confused on what your trying to say.. how is marking your pulley at zero nonsense?
when we install microtechs on our customers car we want the timing to be on... not 5 degrees or 10 degrees off...

you also stated here that the LT comes with with the default static value of 5 deg ATDC by the last post you just posted (you said typo) that is also incorrect.. LT's wont lock ATDC.





Originally posted by No7Yet
The point is to make the static value and the timing light match - when you set the timing lock on, the Microtech sets the timing to whatever the static value is. No need to mark your pulley or any other such nonsense. An LT configured for a rotary comes with a default static value of 5 deg BTDC - lock the timing and set according to the mark on the pulley.

The "proper" way to set your timing is to throw a light on the car and set timing based on what's noted in the manual. Nothing more, nothing less.

Brandon
BR7 Racing
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Old 09-30-03, 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by A-Spec Tuning
im sort of confused on what your trying to say.. how is marking your pulley at zero nonsense?
when we install microtechs on our customers car we want the timing to be on... not 5 degrees or 10 degrees off...

you also stated here that the LT comes with with the default static value of 5 deg ATDC by the last post you just posted (you said typo) that is also incorrect.. LT's wont lock ATDC.
I was referred to this thread through a friend of mine. After reading some of the posts, it looks like a good discussion is going on here albeit with some confusion amongst the readers. Although I'm a Haltech guy and have no direct experience with MT systems, it appears to me that they provide the same function for matching "Real world" engine timing to what the ECU is seeing.

The trick is finding a reference spot that's the same: What the engine is seeing as the crank rotates around (10BTDC, TDC, 5ATDC, 10ATDC, 20ATDC, etc.) vs. what the ECU knows to be accurate with respect to the engine. The stock FC pulley uses two crank marks:

- YELLOW 5ATDC which is used for leading timing
- RED 20ATDC which is used for trailing timing (calculate the hard, 15 degree split between the two)

If I understand what you guys are doing software-wise, then it makes sense to assert that you can set the lock timing degrees to anything you want as long as you've got the same reference points on the stock crank pulley to measure by. If the engine can run with timing locked at -5BTDC (5ATDC), then use the yellow marker as your reference point to adjust the crank angle sensor until it matches up w/ the timing marker on the front cover. All else remaining constant (crank angle sensor being properly inserted and configured for tooth # and offset if you guys even use it in the first place), it should work just fine. Having stuff set to the number "0" won't make any difference and it's not beneficial in the least bit.

If you can do this, then there's no point in removing the crank pulley to mark or chisel a TDC mark.

B
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Old 09-30-03, 03:28 PM
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have you used the Microtech interface before?... timing adjustment via the Haltech are much different than the microtech interface... haltech's can essentially run ADTC by putting a "-" then the degree mark, microtech's are different




Originally posted by BDC
I was referred to this thread through a friend of mine. After reading some of the posts, it looks like a good discussion is going on here albeit with some confusion amongst the readers. Although I'm a Haltech guy and have no direct experience with MT systems, it appears to me that they provide the same function for matching "Real world" engine timing to what the ECU is seeing.

The trick is finding a reference spot that's the same: What the engine is seeing as the crank rotates around (10BTDC, TDC, 5ATDC, 10ATDC, 20ATDC, etc.) vs. what the ECU knows to be accurate with respect to the engine. The stock FC pulley uses two crank marks:

- YELLOW 5ATDC which is used for leading timing
- RED 20ATDC which is used for trailing timing (calculate the hard, 15 degree split between the two)

If I understand what you guys are doing software-wise, then it makes sense to assert that you can set the lock timing degrees to anything you want as long as you've got the same reference points on the stock crank pulley to measure by. If the engine can run with timing locked at -5BTDC (5ATDC), then use the yellow marker as your reference point to adjust the crank angle sensor until it matches up w/ the timing marker on the front cover. All else remaining constant (crank angle sensor being properly inserted and configured for tooth # and offset if you guys even use it in the first place), it should work just fine. Having stuff set to the number "0" won't make any difference and it's not beneficial in the least bit.

If you can do this, then there's no point in removing the crank pulley to mark or chisel a TDC mark.

B
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Old 09-30-03, 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by Poweraxel
have you used the Microtech interface before?... timing adjustment via the Haltech are much different than the microtech interface... haltech's can essentially run ADTC by putting a "-" then the degree mark, microtech's are different
I haven't and I hope I made that point clear at the beginning of my previous response. That notwithstanding, I assume the principle behind zero'ing the timing out between both systems is the same -> we want the computer to read TDC exactly as the engine is resting at TDC and nothing before or after.

B
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Old 09-30-03, 09:34 PM
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I have only ONE ? about this & don't give a **** about ANYTHING ELSE! What does the LT-8 see, out of the box as it's zero timimg? 5ATDC? Is that what Microtech set's it at? Let's just try to get this down for sure......... Or I have a brand new lt8 for sale and will get a Haltech.
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Old 09-30-03, 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by HIMNI Racing
I have only ONE ? about this & don't give a **** about ANYTHING ELSE! What does the LT-8 see, out of the box as it's zero timimg? 5ATDC? Is that what Microtech set's it at? Let's just try to get this down for sure......... Or I have a brand new lt8 for sale and will get a Haltech.
But that's just the thing; the ECU doesn't "see" anything as its base timing. It outputs what you tell it to, and you've got to make that match up physically (the whole point of all my previous posts! ). I was told and was operating under the impression that the base map sets the static ('lock') timing at -5 degrees BTDC (5 ATDC). Unfortunately, nobody I can get in touch with has a "virgin" ECU and I only have boinger ECUs here. Feel like doing some detective work? If you do, throw a light on the car, lock the timing, and adjust the value toward zero and let us know if it advances or retards (that'll tell us without doubt if the displayed value is ATDC or BTDC).

Regards,
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Old 09-30-03, 10:37 PM
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It will be about a week before it's ready to go. I will post here, what it does (advances or retards)
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Old 10-01-03, 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by No7Yet
But that's just the thing; the ECU doesn't "see" anything as its base timing. It outputs what you tell it to, and you've got to make that match up physically (the whole point of all my previous posts! ). I was told and was operating under the impression that the base map sets the static ('lock') timing at -5 degrees BTDC (5 ATDC). Unfortunately, nobody I can get in touch with has a "virgin" ECU and I only have boinger ECUs here. Feel like doing some detective work? If you do, throw a light on the car, lock the timing, and adjust the value toward zero and let us know if it advances or retards (that'll tell us without doubt if the displayed value is ATDC or BTDC).

Regards,
Brandon
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Wait a minute -> Have you guys learned how to properly zero the timing on these new MT units???

B
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Old 10-01-03, 12:25 AM
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Originally posted by BDC
Wait a minute -> Have you guys learned how to properly zero the timing on these new MT units???

B
Yes - the timing when the ECU timing is "locked" is controlled by a single variable called "Static" on screen 30. Instructions from Microtech state (for a rotary) to set timing at 5 degrees ATDC on the base map - this means that you must make the timing pin point at the first mark with a light on T1. Pretty simple stuff. I've done numerous installs following just this procedure and have had zero problems whatsoever.

A-spec/poweraxel is claiming that's not the case, and that the LT won't lock timing with negative values BTDC in Static. My claim is that the ECU will, and does so stock, thus obviating the need to remark the crank pulley. I asked HIMNI to do what I did so as to avoid any confusion or debate about the signedness of the value displayed (i.e. whether "-5" means 5 ATDC or 5 BTDC). I also know that his computer hasn't been touched, and will reflect the base setting from Microtech. I would do so myself, except I'm sick right now and don't have an untouched computer near me. He's also an unbiased third party, much like you.

Hope that clears things up!

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Old 10-01-03, 12:36 AM
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Ok. Makes sense, Brandon. I couldn't tell what was going on. It sounds like they've programmed it to reference the 5ATDC yellow marker on the stock pulley and mimick timing on the stock EFI system.

B
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Old 10-01-03, 03:35 AM
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well when i do it. i'll let you guys know how it works... right now my timing is about 30 degrees off that was when i had the timing locked on the initial startup for like 30 seconds

need to put on the damn exhaust!
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Old 10-01-03, 09:35 AM
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I think what hes saying is... the microtech has a setting in it set at 5 degrees. The factory pully has a mark at 5 degrees. It just makes it easy for us. for instance, if the ECU was set at 0 degrees, we would have to mark the pulley at 0 degrees to get the timing right. but since its at 5 we can use the factory mark.
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Old 10-01-03, 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by No7Yet
As Jon said, it's a matter of personal preference.

Brandon
BR7 Racing
Jon also said "

Me personally,I always re mark the pulley so I have a true zero mark instead of the -5deg mark that comes from the factory.I prefer to have the microtech screen saying zero & the crank be on zero.It saves a lot of confusion. "

Now if it were me and maybe just me I'll go with the man with more real world experience here, and would prefer to have a true zero mark as well.Just makes more sense, and it isn't a big deal.
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Old 10-01-03, 12:09 PM
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how does T1 represent 5 ATDC? it does not represent 5 ATDC for T1... why do you spit out this crap to people?




Originally posted by No7Yet
Yes - the timing when the ECU timing is "locked" is controlled by a single variable called "Static" on screen 30. Instructions from Microtech state (for a rotary) to set timing at 5 degrees ATDC on the base map - this means that you must make the timing pin point at the first mark with a light on T1. Pretty simple stuff. I've done numerous installs following just this procedure and have had zero problems whatsoever.


Brandon
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Old 10-01-03, 12:18 PM
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Re: Proper way to zero timing

Ok, guys im done with this thread... i came in to tell how to properly zero out timing and gave our opinion.. it seems like people who dont understand timing or probably never rebuilt a rotary motor think they know better.. as i have said and "RXENG" seem to agree ... marking the pulley at zero is the best bet... this is how we set base timing if you want to set it different thats your perogative!

good luck
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