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injector staging

Old 06-28-17, 02:01 AM
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injector staging

Hi Guy's got to the point where my secondary injectors are starting to come in and wondered if anyone can give me tips about the staging. I have some settings which Microtech suggested a while back. I think 3500rpm and 85% but when they come in AFR is going to 9's!
It would be useful to know roughly what the matrix should look like at this point as I assume I will need to make a compromise and have the unstaged cells slightly rich in order to lean out the staged ones? Or will adjusting the settings help some?
I am just worried the latter will mess up the rest of the map I have already done which is pretty nice about now other than a little area just off idle I am still playing with.

Thank you
Lee
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Old 07-01-17, 10:15 AM
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What size are your injectors?

What manifold pressure is your stage point set to?

When the secondaries stage, it will be necessary to remove fuel from the map. Usually from only the bins after the stage point but this can depend on how much of a size difference there is between the primaries and secondaries.
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Old 07-01-17, 02:48 PM
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Hi Aaron, thanks for the reply.. My injectors are 875 primary and 1680 secondaries. I am nit sure of the map pressure setting off hand but I was driving today trying to adjust it down which is pretty tricky on your own and the cell it hits that goes rich is the 3rd column in from the end on the first matrix table. I guess maybe 2psi? I think the rpm setting is around 3500-4000rpm but would have to double check again. I was improving a bit but the. Getting a lean spot coming up to it and as I adjusted that out I was going rich again! Cat and mouse! Any tips here would be great please. I am making headway on the off idle and stalling coming to a stop now I think. Just got to keep adding fuel to the 500rpm line around 18hg to 0hg it seems?
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Old 07-02-17, 09:48 AM
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Set the stage to 99%. That will even out the transition.

Also change the MAP trigger point to 2".

Unfortunately the resolution of the Microtech means you'll never get it perfect.
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Old 07-02-17, 02:11 PM
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Okay. So set it to trigger in vacuum instead od boost. Still around 3500rpm? Does changing the stage % not impact the primary injector resolution and effect all of the map I have done so far. I think I am set around 85% currently from a recommendation Microtech gave the one time I managed to get an answer from them!
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Old 07-03-17, 09:47 AM
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Yes, you will have to make a slight adjustment to the rest of your map once you change the stage percent.

Around 3500 RPM is usually a good stage point.
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Old 07-03-17, 03:29 PM
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Oh *****. I have it dialled in really nice up to that point as well! Maybe I will try and change the map setting first and check the stage point and go from there.
Thank you for pointers.
Lee
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Old 07-08-17, 10:14 AM
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But, if you change the stage point it will simply be a percent decrease across the map you have already tuned. So not a complete re-tune.

Any other ECU you could just highlight the necessary cells and then decrease them all by a percent. Of course on the Microtech you just need to change each one manually.
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Old 07-08-17, 06:11 PM
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Okay.. So if I increase the stage% by 10% will give me a 10% increase in fuel everywhere in the map below the stage point? Or is it not the same percentage? I checked today and the stage % is currently 80%, 3500rpm and 0"Hg. I will change the Hg to 2" as you suggest first and then increase the Stage point up. I might try 90% before I go all out but if I do it in stages I can learn what has what effect. I hope the effect on the main map is not the same as the amount you adjust the stage% by. I think I would struggle to take 10% out on the idle Ms yet alone 19. i am sure they have a minimum recommend ms of about 0.76 from memory!
I posted my current matrix table in my other thread for you to comment on. I will come back to this when I get out with my tuner I think. It is too dodgy trying to tune the stage point road mapping on your own. All the bits below I can mess with and fine tune. Once I get this staging better it should be a bit more straight forward hopefully!
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Old 07-14-17, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron Cake View Post
Set the stage to 99%. That will even out the transition.

Also change the MAP trigger point to 2".

Unfortunately the resolution of the Microtech means you'll never get it perfect.
Aaron i know you're quite seasoned with the Microtech, so could you help me understand why you'd use 99%? Wouldn't that call for the secondaries to come on almost full power and go crazy rich?
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Old 07-15-17, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Leeroy_25 View Post
Okay.. So if I increase the stage% by 10% will give me a 10% increase in fuel everywhere in the map below the stage point? Or is it not the same percentage?
Basically, yes. It will be easy to compensate since it will just be a linear increase. Just decrease all the effected bins by a few ticks and see how it runs.

Honestly I'd just set it at 99% then correct the map instead of going to 90%. Or set it to 90%, observe the effect, then go to 99%. Don't take the time to fiddle with it at 90% when it has to go to 99% anyway.

Originally Posted by TonyStarkz View Post
Aaron i know you're quite seasoned with the Microtech, so could you help me understand why you'd use 99%? Wouldn't that call for the secondaries to come on almost full power and go crazy rich?
The Microtech staging setup is very confusing. That % value refers to how much duty cycle is added to the PRIMARIES when the secondaries are offline. Then when the secondaries come online, the primary duty cycle is reduced back to normal. The idea being that it creates a smoother transition. Which generally works well enough except when there is a huge difference between primaries and secondaries. Other ECUs do it better with a stage table (ie. MS3).
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Old 07-21-17, 07:24 AM
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Okay Aaron..

I will check it out.. point taken!
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Old 07-26-17, 01:47 PM
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I have been thinking about this a bit and still waiting for my tuner to come over and go through the map with me. There must b a calculation to work out the stage % and I think I might have it??
So if we have injectors the same size we set the stage% to 50% that means if we look at the injectors sizes then say we have 500cc injectors.
so if we divide the secondary by the primary injector size (500/500) we of course get 1. to get to 50% or 0.5 we therefore have to divide this by 2. So we have a calculation of (Secondary/Primary)/2 x100 = stg%.

So in my case I have 875 cc and 1680cc

(1680/875)/2 x100+ 96%.

What do we reckon? have I cracked it?
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Old 07-29-17, 09:43 AM
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That's basically it. I think there may even be a past thread.
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Old 07-29-17, 05:06 PM
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Thanks Aaron, well good to know there is at least some logic behind it! Hoping to get out tomorrow and give this a whirl. Had a quick trip out to reset some of by off boost matrix as per Rx3sum suggested on my other thread. Made some headway there and learned few more things too! All progress.
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Old 07-30-17, 04:32 PM
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Staging now at 99% and we have some progress!! It actually is driveable! Still very hard to iron out the rich spot without making it lean just before staging. I am getting around. high 10's AFR through the stage point. Stage RPM is currently 3500rpm. Would it benefit to increase slightly to say 3750rpm do you think?
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Old 08-05-17, 09:37 AM
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Yes, increasing the stage point could help. RPM points that fall on the table already are the best choice so try 4000 RPM. Just watch your duty cycle on the primaries only. You don't want them to exceed about 90%.
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Old 08-05-17, 03:15 PM
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Hi Aaron, I will have to play with that next time I am out with my tuner. Maybe I will stick with where it is and just try and dial it in better. 4th and 5th gear are pretty good transitions. 3rd gear is a bit rich still and it all appears that there are one or two cells that are used both staged and un-staged. Certainly a point I found that is sometimes very rich and other times not so bad. Possibly depending on throttle position. i.e slightly lighter throttle goes way rich? Is that normal/possible or should cells only be staged or un-staged? Once we are through the staging area it is lovely again of course. Was cruising down the road for a few miles of clear carriageway at 5000rpm for my next stage of run in today. 4th gear.. don't worry.. sounds incredible!
I reckon my TPS needs replacing.. it definitely has a bit of a mind of it's own. I had to keep re-adjusting the TPS CAL today after moving it the other day. one minute I get 10% then 0% then it says TPS CAL. then it's fine again! not very helpful when pump1 doesn't kick in properly or Decel does not come on and clouds of smoke are coming out the back! I might try and take out fuel in the matrix to take the edge of that for when it doesn't work. Going slightly off topic here but I also wanted to ask about pump settings. I will post in my other thread actually for others to find the answer so please check that and let me know.
Thank you
Lee
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