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Microtech help with fuel setup? 550 and 1680.

Old 10-26-03, 01:00 AM
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help with fuel setup? 550 and 1680.

hey all i know the answer is t uning but i was just wondering if i could get any pointers as to making this a little easier. basically whenever the secondaries come online its like there s a rev limiter in effect and there are jsut massive fireballs outa the back. so i know that it is running to rich. i got it setup in matrix mode and if i change the 2500, 3000 and 3500 millesecond values, it doesnt seem to make much of a difference. what i was wondering is if anyone with the same setup could give ascreen shot of there fuel maps or anythi8ng to hlep me out. is there something that i am missing? any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 10-26-03, 09:53 PM
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wow, that's a huge difference in size between your primaries and secondaries.... that may be some of your issues. I'm no tuner, but I think a lot of folks would recommend getting them closer together --> smaller secondaries and bigger primaries. Like 800s all around? Haven't read your mods or anything, but why the huge secondaries?
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Old 10-26-03, 10:27 PM
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ok you will have to set your % stg to 99%, bring on the secondarys at say 3000rpm and 10inhg,

you will need to adjust your idle settings and off boost settings when you change the % to 99, then you can start pulling out fuel when they come on, you will need to pull a lot out,

also put it in normal mode, dont worry about matrix mode until you have it running right in normal, you will spend 5x the time trying to get it running in matrix mode, normal mode is there to get everthing running right, i still tune all the rotors in normal mode, usually only use matrix mode on circuit racing and piston cars.

Dale
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Old 10-26-03, 11:59 PM
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Boy it would be nice if you could load someone elses map who's done this setup before, so you had a place to start. Why can't the Microtech do that again?
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Old 10-27-03, 12:41 AM
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you can load a map, just have to save it to a dongle or handset first,

or a screen dump,

the new range will have this feature,

basically it is not that hard to get it working properly...

Dale
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Old 10-27-03, 06:41 AM
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You mean you can't just save it, and attach to an email, or zip it and post it on a forum for everyone to use...Oh thats right, thats a haltech feature.....
Now that I am done being an ***....
I seriously considered buying a microtech for my n/a, but this one of the things about it that I have to say, really sucks, and microtech needs to change, if its going to become a mainstream ems, also some of the unconfigurable settings and having to have some of the features hard set in the hardware, kind of defeats the purpose of having stand alone efi...
What makes or breaks an EMS is support, and shareability among users, and so far the microtech seems to be kinda following in the wolf 3d's footsteps in that regard... That needs to be improved, and so does getting rid of that "dongle" business...Lots of the guys that bought this thing seem to be left in the dark now, Kudo's to dale for showing in alot of the posts though...Max
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Old 10-27-03, 06:53 AM
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Max you can't read?

There is a new version coming that does that

Take your Haltech loving *** and **** ** you get my point


Join RXTASY and MikeL in the blowing up motors every 2 months club idiot
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Old 10-27-03, 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by kabooski
Max you can't read?

There is a new version coming that does that

Take your Haltech loving *** and **** ** you get my point


Join RXTASY and MikeL in the blowing up motors every 2 months club idiot
Max admitted he was being an *** with the Haltech business, and he doesnt blow motors up infact he's only ever lost one, due to really poor build quality not tuning.

He does have a point however. Yes I know new software will address the issue of sharing maps. What about the hard set features I as the user have no control over?

For example. There is an after start enrichment function, I can set the amount if additional fuel but not how long to add it for.

The Microtech has no way to configure the AUX output driver, the unit must go back to Microtech so it can be configured for me to use a BAC valve?

The only voltage compensation is for the use of an electric fan, there does not seem to be any compensation for use with the regular fuel maps.

If I am mistaken on some of these issues please feel free to correct me.

Cheers
Graham
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Old 10-27-03, 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by kabooski
Max you can't read?

There is a new version coming that does that

Take your Haltech loving *** and **** ** you get my point


Join RXTASY and MikeL in the blowing up motors every 2 months club idiot
That was abit harsh. Max Isn't one to bring on flaming, especially elliciting a response like yours. Your probably joking around and It was misunderstood due to the lack of those stupid smiley faces.
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Old 10-27-03, 01:37 PM
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hmmm.. if I remember correctly, I can save the maps on my Wolf3d both on my dongle AND as a file to share with people.. so no.. it isn't just a Haltech feature....
and as for support.. We DO have a wolf3d email list just like the haltech.. it may not be as busy as the haltech list.. but perhaps it's because we encounter less problems??

I'll await your appology Max...
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Old 10-27-03, 02:54 PM
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There is more to the dongle being there than the simple fact that MicroTech wants it to be. Talk to Electromotive about that. As far as support, I haven't seen ANYONE "left in the dark". Let us know who it is and we will give them a hand if they need it!



Daniel

Originally posted by Maxthe7man
You mean you can't just save it, and attach to an email, or zip it and post it on a forum for everyone to use...Oh thats right, thats a haltech feature.....
Now that I am done being an ***....
I seriously considered buying a microtech for my n/a, but this one of the things about it that I have to say, really sucks, and microtech needs to change, if its going to become a mainstream ems, also some of the unconfigurable settings and having to have some of the features hard set in the hardware, kind of defeats the purpose of having stand alone efi...
What makes or breaks an EMS is support, and shareability among users, and so far the microtech seems to be kinda following in the wolf 3d's footsteps in that regard... That needs to be improved, and so does getting rid of that "dongle" business...Lots of the guys that bought this thing seem to be left in the dark now, Kudo's to dale for showing in alot of the posts though...Max
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Old 10-27-03, 03:38 PM
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as Dale stated before all the new "S" series ecus will have this feature




Originally posted by Maxthe7man
You mean you can't just save it, and attach to an email, or zip it and post it on a forum for everyone to use...Oh thats right, thats a haltech feature.....
Now that I am done being an ***....
I seriously considered buying a microtech for my n/a, but this one of the things about it that I have to say, really sucks, and microtech needs to change, if its going to become a mainstream ems, also some of the unconfigurable settings and having to have some of the features hard set in the hardware, kind of defeats the purpose of having stand alone efi...
What makes or breaks an EMS is support, and shareability among users, and so far the microtech seems to be kinda following in the wolf 3d's footsteps in that regard... That needs to be improved, and so does getting rid of that "dongle" business...Lots of the guys that bought this thing seem to be left in the dark now, Kudo's to dale for showing in alot of the posts though...Max
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Old 10-27-03, 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
Max admitted he was being an *** with the Haltech business, and he doesnt blow motors up infact he's only ever lost one, due to really poor build quality not tuning.

He does have a point however. Yes I know new software will address the issue of sharing maps. What about the hard set features I as the user have no control over?

For example. There is an after start enrichment function, I can set the amount if additional fuel but not how long to add it for.

The Microtech has no way to configure the AUX output driver, the unit must go back to Microtech so it can be configured for me to use a BAC valve?

The only voltage compensation is for the use of an electric fan, there does not seem to be any compensation for use with the regular fuel maps.

If I am mistaken on some of these issues please feel free to correct me.

Cheers
Graham
If you order you ecu with the BAC valve then it will control it, i know it is a pain in the butt sometimes but its the small price you have to pay to have a ecu that works,

if you want all the bells then buy a motec,

the fixed config on the ecu's makes it simple for EVERY person to install and get it running, you dont need a degree to get it running,

Dale
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Old 10-27-03, 06:29 PM
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alright well i got it in matrix mode. so it will be esier to do it in normal mode? about how low should the ms get before i need to get worried? also should the fuel curve be a steady line form lower left to upper right of the screen? how does the microtech work in normal mode? all it has is a idle map and one load map(4000rpm). how does it fill in all the other rpms and loads?
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Old 10-27-03, 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by 10sec rx7
If you order you ecu with the BAC valve then it will control it, i know it is a pain in the butt sometimes but its the small price you have to pay to have a ecu that works,

if you want all the bells then buy a motec,

the fixed config on the ecu's makes it simple for EVERY person to install and get it running, you dont need a degree to get it running,

Dale
The BAC valve thing cheesed more than just me off. Perhaps it upset me because I don't understand why it was done like that. As for the small price to pay, other ecu's operate the BAC valve, and other devices fine and they "work"

I agree with you about the Motec.

Perhaps the Microtech was just not the ECU for me, I have found I want more control over certain things. I will say this, once the car was wired, I calibrated the TPS turned the key, set the timing, and drove it out of the garage.

Since that time it's been nothing but problems, not all of which are caused by Microtech.
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Old 10-27-03, 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by Crusader_9x
alright well i got it in matrix mode. so it will be esier to do it in normal mode? about how low should the ms get before i need to get worried? also should the fuel curve be a steady line form lower left to upper right of the screen? how does the microtech work in normal mode? all it has is a idle map and one load map(4000rpm). how does it fill in all the other rpms and loads?
dont worry about how low the MS go, just get it to run right, when you are in normal mode it uses the load map and the RPMcrs and RPMwot for the corrections, get it running and driving good in normal mode, then there is a function called all maps the same, hold the program key down on this and it will make all the maps the same, once that is done swap it to matrix mode and fine tune the rpm points for economy and power,

90% of the time i will tune rotors in normal mode using the RPMwot corrections, for piston cars that are a little more fussy on the fuel i will use matrix mode,

Dale
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Old 10-27-03, 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
The BAC valve thing cheesed more than just me off. Perhaps it upset me because I don't understand why it was done like that. As for the small price to pay, other ecu's operate the BAC valve, and other devices fine and they "work"

I agree with you about the Motec.

Perhaps the Microtech was just not the ECU for me, I have found I want more control over certain things. I will say this, once the car was wired, I calibrated the TPS turned the key, set the timing, and drove it out of the garage.

Since that time it's been nothing but problems, not all of which are caused by Microtech.
The BAC thing was explained at the start, it has been comon knowledge that it had to be setup for this,

the microtech is a simple ecu with enough features to get the car running perfect with a thermo fan or something like that,

what other problems have been caused by the microtech,

Dale
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Old 10-27-03, 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by 10sec rx7

what other problems have been caused by the microtech,

Dale
yea lets get it straight

Lets see if its bad install/setup (user error) or MicroTech eh
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Old 10-27-03, 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by kabooski
Max you can't read?

There is a new version coming that does that

Take your Haltech loving *** and **** ** you get my point


Join RXTASY and MikeL in the blowing up motors every 2 months club idiot
The new version coming out doesn't help people who bought it and have the old version does it..

I think shipping an ecu with hard settings is ridiculous, I bought an ecu with an interface for a reason, and that reason is not keep the post office in business...
The e6k didn't happen overnight, and the microtech is not going to be perfect first time out...

As for being in the dark, I can attest to Rx7_turbo2's adventure, what he got for an ems, is alot different than what he was originally toldhe was getting, the bac valve was part of that, and for quality, I am so far rather unimpressed with the stabiltiy of the microtech timing, it doesn't lock worth a pinch..

And the go round over cas stabbing was something else.....
Then finding out it was 5 deg out as a safety margin? pfft...That just sends you down the garden path, especially if you know what numbers you want or need at a given load or rpm.. When you tune an ems, regardless of make, the timing numbers should be what they are, not 5 deg off, thats just stunned, if you tune a bunch of cars thnking you have 5 deg of safety, and then you tune one that doesn't....booom..

Why not report some of the critisisms to microtech, instead of pretending that some of the stuff is a none issue and only an issue to a selected few...Or the buy a motec cop out...No, people bought the microtech, and it has some issues, and thats what needs to be resolved..

I would like to see a fix or pactch so the first gens can share maps, I would like to see one that has open ended auxillaries, and adjustable software settings for decay rates, and time functions, like Rx_7turbo2 says, having a feature but not being able to configure the parameters surrouding it is not a great hallmark, of a great standalone, its the hallmark of a piggy back..

Notes by Evil Aviator
Isn't it amazing how the same point can be made WITHOUT the bad language and personal attacks? Post edited, Warning #1 given.

Last edited by Evil Aviator; 10-28-03 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 10-28-03, 01:08 AM
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Originally posted by kabooski
yea lets get it straight

Lets see if its bad install/setup (user error) or MicroTech eh
Hey easy now.

I've explained my problems and concerns already. I did not buy my Microtech from the group buy, and was not aware of the BAC valve issue prior to my purchase, for me that piece of info was not "common knowledge, so my beef(if I have one) will be with the place I purchased the unit from.

And as Max pointed out, a new and improved unit does not do those of us much good who have the current model and want to share maps, unless a change is being made in the software to allow that.

I don't think there is any EMS out there that is without fault, to many variables going on. I have recently seen a brand new Haltech have to go back because of some issues so.....

There are features I would like to control that the Microtech does not allow for. No amount of user error or install error caused this. I don't need to be attacked, I have been completly civil and respectfull with everyone, and I ask the same in return.
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Old 10-28-03, 02:12 AM
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Originally posted by Maxthe7man

And Hey Chris... Quit whining about how easy us "haltech" guys have it, by the way where is Ron Foreman..hehe......Max
Ron Foreman was a tool... I freely admit that..someone who felt that just because he was an authorized dealer of an ems system, it made him the god of tuning the system... I wonder how many of his customer's blew up with his tuning and advice...

But the "ems" war is a bit played out over and over..I agree that the e6k is a much configurability to it over both the microtech and wolf (ver 3.1) ..this makes it a desireable system to those who want to control every last detail of their vehicle.. someone such as you Max.. However when we are talking about the benifits of a standalone system over the stock ecu and using piggybacks, all these systems offer the flexability needed over the stock system..
I belive the microtech was always billed as a "budget EMS system".. and for the most part, you get what you pay for.... witht he introduction of the E11, the E6k dropped in the same price range as the microtech, however when the microtech was first introduced, it was conciderably cheaper than the haltech.. and so it was a good choice for those who could not afford the haltech.. Would I purchase a microtech tomorrow? no.. not if I could get a e6k for the same price.. the e6k is more robust..
However, even though the microtech lacks all the features of the haltech, it does have enough features to get your car up and running, and running well, in my opinion... I belive that the main problem here is that you are a haltech guy.. and I am a wolf guy.. we have both gotten used to the way our ems's work, how to get around and program the maps, how staging and timing works with our units.. now we are both trying to help someone with a completely diffrent ems get his car running well.. however because the interface and way of getting things done isn't familiar to us, we both get kind of frustrated at it.. I don't belive this is the fault of the ems itself.. If I had started out with a microtech from day one, and had to try and figure out a wolf or haltech, I'm sure i would be just as equally frustrated..
My wolf3d offer the same flexability as your haltech does, in fact it doesn't offer as much flexability as the microtech does.. however, I've managed to get my car running great with it.. idles well, makes good power, driveability is great.. I don't see why the microtech can't do all this as well..

Perhaps some of the bad taste for the microtech has come from the fact that the support has been frustrating to say the least.. When you see authorized dealers argueing about how to properly zero the timing, when you ask some questions and you get either no response, or told to check with the dealer you purchased the unit from.. and when you do, the dealer still can't answer your questions.. it gets frustrating to say the least.. especially for someone who is new to ems's and has been waiting a very long time to finally get his car back on the road...

hmm.. I seem to be ranting away here... so I should put a stop to it.. in the end I just think that the MT is fully capable of getting rx7_turbo2's car running well, perhaps without the same flexability as you are used to with your haltech, and so you will have to "dumify" yourself when working with the microtech.. Hell, I betcha a Motec user would laugh and have the same views about the haltech as you withthe microtech...
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Old 10-28-03, 05:30 AM
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Max I don't take crap from Haltech zeolots like you... Lets get the straight!

Take your Haltech loving *** out of this Microtech section
we don't need you coming here and flaming this board

I owned a Brand New E6K before My Microtech
it was a total POS!

I don't go into the Haltech section and start ****
Keep it up Max and Ill report you to Evil

Chris Ng
I don't know what yo mean about support
Dale and BR7 answer alot of questions here

and you could join yahoo groups(microtech)
ausrotary.com who has alot of MT owners

I have not had a SINGLE issue with my Microtech NOT one..Why? cause it was installed and setup properly

and mine has not even been dyno tunned
MPG=16-20



Last edited by kabooski; 10-28-03 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 10-28-03, 08:10 AM
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Go ahead, report me to evil, then go tell your dad on me too, while your at it...
I have not had a single issue with my haltech, although you seem to think its a motor blower, which its not, and by the way, closed loop works, I got over 30 mpg yesterday on a 700 km road trip, not dyno tuned..

Chris, I don't find the interface neccasarily that bad, but there is alot of things that are not configurable, and the wolf falls victim to this to a degree, such as having the ability to control a thermofan, but not having the ability to control idle, the subsequent load placed on the motor loads the motor down, without any compensation, the other option is to always hard set the idle high to compensate for it, this is no better than having a carbureator IMHO...
One of the key benefits of efi was the ability to hold idle, especially when it came to rotaries, and when moving from the stock system with piggybacks, to the either the wolf or the basment microtech, you actually lose a feature, thats idiotic...
I didn't really care for the Holley commander software nor the accell software, however both systems have excellant idle control, this may not be an issue with australians but in North America, and varying conditions,an ems should support idle control....
I see no reason why one should have to make the car irritating to drive when switching to stand alone ems..
And as said, you get what you pay for... Rx7_turbo2 was given the full impression that this would do anything the e6k could do when he purchased his, and after seeing how tunable my car was, he was sure he was getting basically what I had..And also thats what got me interested in buying a microtech for myself , if I could save 500 bucks, and get the managability in my GX that I have in my TII, and I read all the posts when the microtech first came out, it was suposed to do everything that the e6k could do, for about half the price, well guess what....The other shoe dropped...
Getting around the maps doesn't really frustrate me that much, nor does not knowing the software, I walked into a shop the other week and dynotuned a holley commander setup without reading the book, and found another 40 rwhp, with the motec, even though it was in Japanese I had no problem navigating the maps nor finding options, same goes with the Fcon software. What bothers me is that the lack of openess in the options that has already been talked about, even though the data transmission sucks on the holley, it gives you configurable access to every option, you can turn on the fans after such and such, decay fueling and post start enrichment 3 different ways, and the new software they keep sending out, allows more and more options with the old hardware without a send in having to occur, and the haltech is the same in that regard.. Its been referred to as "dum"ifying the tuning, but I don't agree with that, I think its a handicap to tuning, and I think its a cop out used to upsell options that should have been there in the first place, when it was compared and held up to other ems's as comparison when released..
Perhaps this should be said to people, if you want your car to ever run like it did stock driveability wise, you need to buy microtech model XXXX with this option ordered and it will cost this much....xxxx.xx
If you plan on only running the quarter mile in your car and live in a warm climate, you can buy this microtech model XXXX it won't do this and that but will cost this much...xxx.xx
That way there won't be people so t'eed off when they find out that if they every winter drive their car, they are gonna have to keep their foot on the gas for the first 20 minutes, or keep the revs bouncing so it doesn't stall when its ice cold.. Thats things people like Kabooski and even Dale probably don't even think about, welcome to Canada boys...
I like the fact that I can reach in through my window and turn the key in my car, and the car will start without having to touch the gas, hold high idle, and mellow out to a controlled 950 rpm idle, regardless of electrical load, with a large extend ported motor. 50% of efi is driveability...
Is it still a half price comparison with those options?
Rx7_turbo2 only has one car really, and he will sometime have to drive his car in some not so good weather, his car will run well, sometimes, I can guarantee though, its going to be a pain in the *** sometimes, and the dealer he brought it from should have been a little more forthcoming..I think at sometime its going to have to go back to get the bac valve option, its only a matter of time..
How many of you could put "command start" on your car and have it start by remote, and idle up with the heater on...
As for the dongle business, in a world where data transmission is as simple now as brushing ones teeth, the thinking behind that one eludes me..., Seems like a nice try at making buyers dependent on dealers and approved tuners, but one must realize is thats what made the e6k so damn popular, shareability among users, the same reason why the pc is king, and well the mac is the mac... Some one said its needed for somthing else, what is that something else, why doesn't the AEM,haltech,motec,commander have it?..
Another thing that has to be addressed, is having the microtech hard set to one particular application.. That is what is kind of making me shy away from it as well, say I bought the microtech for the GX, but a year later, a new ems came out that was far better for rotaries , could I pull that microtech out and adapt it to my 440 chrysler, on the spot..No...
If I had a microtech in one car, with a rotary, but had another car with a microtech and I suspected a dead injector driver, could I switch ecu's on the spot to nail down the problem...no...
Could I do this with the wolf, yes, the haltech yes, the holley yes, motec, yes....I could even do that with the lowly sds......
There is alot of room for improvements in the lineup, and alot of stuff that needs to be addressed, its not a personal shot at anyone running the thing, if you take it that way, I dunno, get your head checked, but this kinda stuff should go to microtech and let them make the needed adjustments....Max

Notes by Evil Aviator
No need for reporting, as I found these offensive posts on my own. You made some excellent points, but the bad language and personal attacks made you sound like a moron. This post was also edited, and now reads much better, and makes you sound like you actually know what you are talking about, if I may say so. Please try to act civilized in the future. Thank you.

Last edited by Evil Aviator; 10-28-03 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 10-28-03, 12:28 PM
  #24  
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People seem to take thing's very personally when talking about EMS. Not sure why. We all know what happened in the thread at teamfc3s lets try to avoid that.

I agree with both Max an Kabooski, a bad install or a bad tuner can screw stuff up beyond belief.

I made a mistake when I first fired up the unit and it resulted in the loss of my base map. My fault 100%, but if sharing was possible I would not have had to purchase another adapter with a base map from Australia. That's a good example of what Max and Kabooski were talking about.

It seemed to me at that point that the unit I bought that was for "ease of use" for people without a degree in tuning, suddenly got very difficult to use and even more expensive to get running, seeing as how I would need to purchase another adapter, or send mine back to have a base map loaded. It was a newbie mistake I agree, but I thought that was who the Microtech was aimed at. It kind of left a newbie out in the rain.

I like the software. I find it very easy to naviagate through, and I really like the data gauges that are visible on the main screen, it gives you info at a quick glance. I also really like the idea of the Dash unit, it's like having numerous gauges all in one, and it's well thought out as well.

But like I mentioned before there are some things that need improvement. Improving them on the new model without addressing the current model does alot of us who purchased recently, no good.
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Old 10-28-03, 04:25 PM
  #25  
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RX7_turbo2

Sending PM to you

Max.

i understand exaclty what you are saying, and i will do my best to address these issues, ill pass on your ideas to the apporate people,

as for the dongle, electromotive have a patent on programming a engine managment ecu with a rs232 com port and cable, haltech pay them a fee to do it, microtech wasnt going to pay the fee and thats what the dongle covers.

Dale
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