After fighting with my parts for a few months and getting screwed on alot of deals I have decided to go non turbo for a while. I'm looking for a good msq file to get me started, I'm guessing i could use my turbo maps but i know timing and fuel will be way off.
I have a wideband so tuning the VE will not be a problem but i'm still learning how to tune spark. So I guess even if you dont have a nice msq file for me give me some pointers on where to start. Thank you, Russ.

 

What version?

 

That's a good question..... let me go look.....

 

I think 029y4 or 029v, it's been a while since i drove the car, longer than that since i messed with my megatune...

 

injector size(s)?

 

Just to get you running, for a 13B just make the spark about 5 degrees at idle, ramping up to about 25 degrees at 4000rpm, like a distributor does it. You can tweak from there.

Really, the sub-100kpa part of a turbo map should be good enough.

 

I just got the engine stacked tonight, hopefully over the weekend i can get it installed and started.

I'm using the injectors from the turbo engine, 550 pri/ 720 sec.

I was just looking at some msq files from the megasquirt forum that people have posted reporting there system runs good looking at there ignition and it looks easy to set up. I was thinking of running my turbo configuration and tweeking that.

I found in the past starting from scratch is a pain in the butt because i always forget to change something. This way by using my old msq i only have to worry about two things, ve and spark/split...

 

Tell me if this makes you sick.... I got this and built a non turbo engine....

One day i'll have my turbo engine back

 

bastard... I'll give you $20 for it , since your not using it or anything

 

I dont know, make it $25 and a large milk shake from Mc. Donalds and I'll think about it....

 

How about a large milkshake Worth 26.50 from Mickey Dee's?..Flavor?

 

Lol, I still need a good timing table if any one has one. The car is running good so far, i'm at the 300 mile marker in the break in process so i didn't take it past 4000 rpm yet. So i'll need as much help as i can get

As far as the ve table I set my aft targets and let auto tune do it's thing. So far so good!

 

I got the car running well. I would like to get it on a dyno and have it fine tuned but for now I can live with it.

 

The timing table is backwards.

 

I was just wondering about that myself. It's way off. If that's "running well" I'd love to see what he thinks when runs correctly! It's not only backwards, it's upside down and backwards. Even then it really needs alot of tweaking on the low end in both the load and rpm points.

A VE table with values that high also tells me that the engine sizing is entered wrong. You should enter the engine size as 2616 cc to get it correct.

For an n/a, 550cc primaries and 720cc secondaries is way overkill. I'd get an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator and set the fuel pressure to 50 psi. The use ONLY the 2-720cc injectors in the primary location. Plug the rest. Just use the 2. That's enough fuel to get you over 220 hp. It works great. I use this setup and it's easy to tune. No need to worry about injector staging. I used to run 4 injectors but I like this better. If I made more power I'd change it but somtimes simplest is best.

 

Whew, for a while there I thought I was reading it wrong

Could also be wrong numbers of squirts/cycle. At peak power, I'm only seeing ~103 for a VE.

Odd you should say that. I'm currently going the other way... going to go from two to four. There are two reasons for that... primarily, and most importantly, having smaller injectors means the MS has greater control over fueling because the pulsewidths are longer. (May not apply for MS-II, or if you're using highres code) I'm seeing pulsewidths in the 1.5-1.6 range under certain normal driving conditions, that makes for huge jumps in fueling since it can only control to the tenth of a millisecond.

And the other reason is... I'm out of injector. I have some exhaust upgrades in the pipeline but they will have to wait until I take out my 680s and put in quad FC N/A injectors. I just retuned last night and running at 13:1, I'm still running it up to 90% duty cycle. My engine is only making ~180hp (flywheel) in its current state. I don't know if 10-odd more PSI will increase fuel flow by 20%.



All that crap needs to go...


Incidentally, if you run the numbers, two GSL-SE injectors will flow about 200hp at 100% duty cycle. So, the duty cycle dyno correlates with what I learned at Defined Autoworks, anyway


Max7 (he still with us?) had several GSL-SEs and had the injectors cleaned/tested and he found that all 1984 flowed 680cc/min and all 1985 flowed 720cc/min. Just a FYI.

 

Gentlemen, please remember that the "VE" table numbers are relative to reqfuel. They do not have to be actual Volumetric Efficiency - just relative. Both are 8 bit values that have 255 possible values. Therefore, the closer you can get into the 200s in VE numbers (at the max levels) the finer the difference between VE numbers aka increased granularity. For example, reqfuel of 10ms and max VE of 100 means 0.1 ms (10/100) difference between VE numbers and a PW of 10ms at the 100 VE (1.00*10). A reqfuel of 5ms and a max VE of 200 means 0.025 ms (5/200) difference between VE numbers resulting in the same desired max 10ms pulsewidth at a 200 "VE" (2.00*5). There are several other factors that change the final calculated PW and the code provides interpolation between cells but it's always best to have the most accurate input into any calc that has numerous inputs. This concept helps most at low load/idle/small PW situations common with larger injectors. Always tune to real life observations - intake and exhaust harmonics, etc., may (and usually do) create odd VE number changes in certain areas of your fueling map in order to meet desired lambda/EGT/power goals. There are also limitations of the processor and code that will round values up or down but these are negligible in the case of MS2 or MS1-HR.

-Mike, who hopefully didn't make many errors in the above - very fatigued at the moment!

 

peejay, I definitely understand the logic for using 4 injectors. I ran 4 for a long time before I went back to 2. Of course by no means am I suggesting that 2 is any better. It's not. It's just different. I am currently running the 720 cc stock GSL-SE injectors. You are correct that they aren't enough fuel for more than 200 hp or so. However raising the fuel pressure changes this and they are good for around 220 or so at 80% duty cycle. That's plenty for a mild street engine. Of course you can't just arbitrarily raise the fuel pressure forever as this just won't work but going up to 50 psi is fine. The key then is making sure your fuel pump can deliver enough since flow goes down through the pump as pressure goes up.

This setup works pretty nice for me. I'll probably end up going back to 4 again at some point. I can't leave anything alone for very long.

 

Of course it *works*... and doing the math, flow gets bumped up by 10%. And you don't have to worry about staging, which is why I'm still using the dual injectors.

Fuel pump part is actually the easy part, just get one of the Big Round Bosch pumps made for K-jet. They are meant for rated flow at 100-odd PSI!

 

Umm, I'm not sure what everyone means by saying my timing table is backwards. From all the tuning books i have read what i have is correct... to some extent...

The engine runs strong and i'm having the best luck with it like this. It's not turbo anymore and i had a heck of a time getting it to run at all untill i came up with this. Even if you ask megatune to generate a table it will come up with something close to this.

I took videos of the car running and pulling hard from 1st gear all of the way through 4th gear but for some reason my sound dont work on my cammera in video mode. When i figure it out i'll post the videos.

 

I hear what your saying and i like your feedback about the injectors, under full load the secondary injectors are only at 6% duty cycle. They are staged at 3500 rpm, i left it alone from when i had it setup with a turbo.

 

I hear what your saying and i like your feedback about the injectors, under full load the primary injectors are at 79% duty cycle and the secondary injectors are only at 6% duty cycle. They are staged at 3500 rpm, i left it alone from when i had it setup with a turbo.

 

Well, here's a timing table from a basically stock TII I'm tuning right now. It still needs some work, but you get the idea. There's hardly any advance under boost because the car is being tuned for 87 octane.

Edit...Before anyone points out that my table is a little funny, I know it is. It's in progress and I'll clean it up once we're done tuning the much more fun wide open throttle. But the basics are there.

 

Your table has high advance at low RPM and low advance at high RPM. This is backwards.

 

I'll mess with it soon. I have been told two ways to tune the car from many people. The guy i talked to tonight told me to start out low and ramp it up. So i'm willing to try it.

Thank you Aaron for sharing with me, this is what i needed to see to begin with. I'll try it out and post my results.