FC-chan

So is there any plan to have a kit like this for the FC?

MakoDHardie

Yeah, I bet there would be some interest from the people with 2nd Gens....

Deft Spyder, you got at most of my question. I just wanted to know how we would just close the door once it is installed and the alignment is perfect enough to have that OEM or better interior seal. I watched your video from the website with the 3000GT and it seems like the doors come down from their vertical angle and stop when they are aligned with the door, at which point, they would be open just a couple inches to pull shut just like an OEM door. Is this how it will be on our car, or will the directional guidance of the hardware allow us to just give them a good pull from their vertical position so that they close hard enough to secure on the latches? I know its possible to close the stock FD doors when they're open only a few inches, but it is difficult when all other door/windows are closed. I realize that this may potentially be an unavoidable problem as it comes from the factory characteristics of the car and installing such door components would not necessary make it worse. But can ya just slam it while its open all the way like you can with the stock doors? .... that's my question.


BTW, I read you had your car as a daily driver for a few years. Weren't 3000GT Spyders $60k cars when they sold for the last time back then?....baller!

deft_spyder

From my personal experience the seal is the same or tighter. Our door is a bit further than 6 inches, so yes, I'm sure you could get the momentum to close the door.

That said, I own the 3k... I can follow up with Jay and ask him specific questions about any experiences he has had with the seal on the door if you like.

To answer the FD/FC question... we will most likely do the FD now, and maybe later come back to an earlier model. This isn't a slight at the FC owners... we are just going by demand, and we've found the later model cars have a more immediate market. We have many other makes to get to first though.

Yes, my Spyder has been around for some years now.... but I didn't buy it new... and the payments are spread out over a good part of the rest of my life But yeah, they were $62,000 for the VR4 model when new.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

MakoDHardie makes a very valid point..

The reason i wanted to see the video of FDNewbie and your (Deft Spyder) of actural FD doors open and closing is because what makoDHardie have mentioned..

I don't know if you (Defy Spyder) acturally owned an FD, but its pain in the butt to close the door tightly when the windows are up and passenger door is closed.. Example, tonight.. I went to dinner at a restaurant and took me three tries to close my damn door..

One suggestion I might make.. Have you seen Acura Legend Coupe door (models 91-95). I don't know if you even seen the door.. but you could close the door with one finger, never have to slam it.. And I know those Legend doors are alot heavier than my FD doors.. They are I believe one of 2-3 sedans with mechanical pullin system.. Most people have seen this on a Cadillac trunks or highend Mercedes. I bought my Legend because of the doors.. Just awesome to never have to slam it.. maybe you could incorporate this latching system into the doors.. That way 6 inch or less would be needed to open or close and make it more verticle system than to open and going up.... I'm sure some modification on the door itself is needed.. which means not everyone can install this kit on their own..

Just a thought..

MakoDHardie

So the doors come down from their vertical tilt angle and then you close them with the horizontal play you have left... It can be done if you can manage to get in your car and get the doors shut after you come back to find some retard decided to back in and didn't realize how close he/she parked to you. I've gotten in plenty of times and closed the door with little travel available. For the other door kits that are out there that do not allow this extra horizontal travel before the door's hinges come into contact, I'd be nervous to see how the hardware works to support such a tough momentum change if you were to pull the door straight down and expect it to not be wearing in some way other than it would with OEM doors on. Even if the hardware itself can support it, can the rest of the car? I know with struts that are pressurized to expansion forces greater than the weight of the door to the extra coefficient from the angle the struts would be applying force to the door at would make for lots of unnecessary forces applied to the body of the car would make for potential problems over long periods of time. Aside from that, I'd worry about the weather stripping taking a beating every time the door comes down at an angle its not designed for.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Bottomline, I would like to see video of actual FD's with these kits.. that would really help with the comparison.. few repeated open and closing of the doors..

deft_spyder

I havent measure how far out the door is when you close it, so this is a guess, but I would say you have at least a foot to close it. We made the door pivot pretty much exactly where the stock latch is, so the force needed to close it is probably the same.

Are you guys telling me that you pretty much need to drop the window a little to get the door shut?

I can say with pretty much certainty that the doors will have the same seal. I wish that we could build something in that would make it easy to shut your doors, but we use the stock latching system and have attmpted to have the door shut as close to OEM as possible.

RedRex

Hi there, thanks for taking the time to keep on clarifying people's questions. Also thanks to FDNewBie for bringing up some good points I would not have thought of. However those points have been clasified and I am interested in the VLS. (I have been on that mailing list but haven't heard anything yet).

Anyhow, is there some way to get pictures of an FD with the system.
[1] A picture directly from the front so you can clearly see how wide they go. (Another from the back would be nice.
[2] A picture squarely from the side.
[3] A picture of the hinge installed on an FD (close up).
[4] A picture of the hinge as they are shipped, eg on a white cloth or something.

My FD is a daily driver, and I just had the engine rebuilt after it died because of the daily use no doubt but that is another story. Anyhow, I have to park my car in a pretty dense lot each day and it is hard to find a good spot where I am not ultimately surrounded by some SUV or truck making it practically impossible to get in. I really like the fact that the door opens OEM (so I dont have to look like a ricer all the time) but can get into the vehicle when it is surrounded. I also like that the car can remain totally stock/stealth (as if an RX7 is stealth

I also like that the VLS is a bit more reasonably priced, granted you need to recover your R&D but convincing myself to layout more than a grand to get better hinges is not going to be easy.

Anyhow when is this kit available and how about some FD specific pictures.

Thanks

RedRex

It would be nice , the stock doors are a bit of a pain to shut because the car is so airtight.

On that topic, does anyone know why the driver door sounds like a tin can when shutting it while the passenger sounds nice (like the shutting of a vault door).

deft_spyder

Hey red...

Yeah, i dont like to send out mailing list emails too often unless I have real news. Too many people use mailing lists to bombard their users with sales pitches... I just wait till something happens. With the RX7 in production, I will soon be sending one out with the release date/pre sales. I'm expecting it within 3-4 weeks.

I will attempt to get some pics together for you of the different angles... and no need to thank me for answering questions... its the least I can do. I mean, if you like your car like I like mine... I'd like to know everything too.

marix1521

holy poopie, this thread has some of the longest posts i've ever seen! but..... that is VERY good, and it is also good that you are going back and forth in a (semi) professional way! This is one of the long threads that I actually read and am glad that I did read it instead of just looking over it b/c it was something that I was interrested in and the posts were all very informative.

I honestly cannot say which is a better company between the "refabricated" vertical doors kit and the VLS system, but I can say that I have heard of the lawsuit that is going on between Decah and Verticaldoors.com. As far as I know, VLS is it's own thing and didnt get it's opening methods from anything else. I, along with the rest of the members in this thread, would like to see videos of both VD.com and VLS systems at work, possibly both together in the same video to show if one is faster than the other at going up and/or down.

Shinobi-X

The amount of REAL information in this thread, concerning such a heavily debated topic would qualify this for a sticky IMO.

deft_spyder

I'd prefer to do a side by side FAQ/comparison rather than make this a sticky... alot of what was said, at least about the VLS, was incorrect. It takes alot of reading to sort that out, and not neccessarily everyone will probably have the time to read through it all.... heck, I barely had time to respond to everything

Shinobi-X

The cabin of the FD is extremely air tight- so much so, that when I shut my door (windows up, passenger side closed), you can see the sunroof (touring models) pop itself up to let the pressurized air escape when slamming the door shut. This translates into needing a good bit of distance to really build the momentum necessary in order to shut the door properly. With your kit, the concern was if your door would allow this travel when in vertical mode.

I understand your position, and I also thank FDnewbie for raising his issues (however incorrect they may have been) with your kit. These were undoubtably all questions most of us had, as we (some of us) are not as experienced with how these doors, or yours specifically may have functioned. Either way, you defended your product well, and I must say that my interest is very high now based on your responses. However, as someone mentioned above, remaining skepticism will most likely be removed when we see a video demonstration of your kit on an actual FD. All questions should be answered then- especially those not satisfied through text responses.

deft_spyder

I'll try to get some video. Just know that the FD is out of state for me personally, so I have to try and get video/pics sent to me. That could take some time because that show car is all over the country, and video is hard to send because of the file sizes.

I get the 3000GT stuff so quickly because well, it's in my garage

deft_spyder

btw, it sounds like someone could make some money by inventing some sort of 1 way valve that can be attached to maybe the AC system that will open when the force of the door coming in creates pressure in the cabin, letting that pressure out, and allowing the door to close.

Sorry, i already have my product... but something like that might work using the AC vents as the path for the pressure to dissipate.

evot23

iTrader: (17)

Any new word on the release date?

deft_spyder

as soon as I have one, I'll announce it on the mailing list at the website importprecision.com

evot23

iTrader: (17)

You're quick man! Thanks!...now to go sell some stuff so I can afford these...wish me luck!

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Im back…im back...(they call me slim shady…) lol j/k

Hmmm…in no particular order…

Fumanchu:
<< Seems to me the VLS system is the better one >>

I wanna make it *crystal clear* that im not out to prove the VD kit is better than the VLS (or visa versa). My intention was and still remains to raise different perspectives and points so you guys can come to your own conclusions. If everyone thinks the VLS one is better, that’s great. If everyone things the VD kit is better, that’s great too…cuz either way I already paid for mine, it’s on my car, and im satisfied from it.

Which brings me to the next point

<< FDNewbie- Seems to me that Bill wasn't attacking you at all but actually defending his product from untrue info >>

Bill was definitely attacking me. But Bill’s not an idiot…he’s obviously a smart guy (im serious) and it’s shown by the way he jumped on a forum foreign to him to promote his product. That's real smart thinking. But he’s also real smart in the sense of his communication. He doesn’t have to come outright and say a direct insult or attack… most of it isn't what he did say…it's what he DIDNT' say...ie, what he IMPLIED. And if you ask me (cuz I have extensive experience in public speaking and relations)…one of the most effective means of communicating a desired message to people isn’t by telling them the conclusion.. it’s by *alluding* to it, and leaving THEM to come to the conclusion you’ve directed them to…esp. since ppl hate to be told what to believe.

Example…Bill never flat out called me a liar…but after I initially said I have no relationship or affiliation w/ VD, he insisted, questioned, postulated, and in his last post practically insinuated that I “must” have something to do w/ them

In fact…lets take a look at that…

<< Or, did you get it for free... which would certainly be a sponsorship/beta situation, and perhaps not be as 3rd party as portrayed. I mean, I know your are a tester/beta car, so you must know someone. >>

that’s the 3rd of 4th time he’s clearly said something to that effect, after I *clearly* stated I have no affiliation w/ them in my FIRST post (before me and him every exchanged any words), and then confirmed it when he asked/accused me in the 2nd post. Basically he did everything short of saying "liar" to my face. But it’s understandable that you might not pick up on these things, since you’re not in the hotseat. I am, so i did pick up on it...that, and I’m not a dumb 17 year old college freshman that he may believe me to be.

So to set the record straight, I BOUGHT my VD kit, at FULL price, and paid for it’s install as well. Granted, Dan (from the body shop) did me a favor by asking a fixed set price for installation, since this was the first one he was gonna install, and he wasn’t sure how long it would take, and the experience would benefit him, so he helped me out in that aspect. But other than that, im sorry, there is nothing to connect me w/ VD. They don’t know my name. Don’t know my car. Don’t know anything about me. All they know is Dan got a kit off them and was testing it out on someone’s car. That had no implications on me per say. Him and VD, yes…but not me. So Bill…to be very direct about it, don’t test me. I gave you full respect, and I fully expect the same

<< Also, Newbie... I would like to see you squeeze out of a door that only opens 6''. That would be a site to see >>

Yea yea…you called me on it, and that’s my bad. I should have been more exact...I figured you guys would get the gist of what i was trying to say, and not be so literal lol. (I also didn't think Bill would use his dog as an example of getting out of that space...simply out of respect for not using me and an animal as examples in the same situation. But again, decency is an issue here...but imma lay that one to rest).

The 6” thing as well as “bulletproof” hinges were figurative…ie the doors don’t open outward that much (I will get exact measurements soon enough…patience plz cuz I don’t have my car, and my free time is next to nill)…and i meant that the hinges are very strong. But ill get to that part in a few.

Bill:

<< FD, I only said you obviously had no experience with something when you "guessed" that it would take minutes to change from vertical to OEM when it was completely wrong >>

Maybe we have diff communication styles, or maybe I’m not making myself clear. If that’s my fault, I apologize. What I really meant when I said that (if you go back and look at it) was that *either* it was more involved in switching from OEM to vertical, OR it was just a flip of a switch, in which case my argument is the simpler the mechanism is to change movement between two totally different planes, the more prone for that switchpoint to be a weakpoint. So it was an “if – then” logic statement, not a flat out close-ended declaration.

Since we’re on that topic, as much as I loved your skyscraper example (good thinking) I think you missed my point, but again, that might be a lack of elaboration on my part. When im talking about flexibility vs. fragility, im speaking *specifically* in relation to joints/hinges, not a material type. I’m sure your hinges don’t bend w/ motion and stress lol…so that really has no place in this circumstance.

This following point I thought I had clearly wrote in my original posts, but while im at it, ill apologize AGAIN for any incomplete clarifications on my part. Remember how I said I wasn’t attacking your product or it’s engineering? I meant that...cuz I’m really not.

My flexibility vs. fragility point was *in reference to* a hinge/joint that operates and is limited to operating in ONLY one plane. Lemme explain

Your system allows both lateral and vertical motion. And like you clarified for me, you have 2 hinges. And yes, 2 is better and stronger than one. But, Bill, im sure you know, a chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link. And irregardless of which hinge is weaker, when moving the door in one plane, if one were careless (and this I don’t assume…this I find to be an inevitable fact, because again, your product is made for daily use, and use, abuse, carelessness and neglect eventually WILL happen, whether once or consistently, w/ a daily beater). So ill rephrase and say WHEN one is careless, and operates the door at an improper angle (pushing in or out, or up or down)… basically pushing in the wrong direction (perpendicular to the plane of motion), what MAY eventually happen is the weaker hinge will get weaker and weaker, and eventually give.

This, again, is in reference to a one-hinge system, where your weakest link is actually the strongest component.. a very sturdy hinge that's made and designed to take that type of motion (and notice it doesn't have a hinge perpendicular to it that would allow for any other type of motion than it's made for, thereby reducing the likelihood of it failing or fatiguing in that direction

Notice Bill I said MAY. I GIVE YOUR PRODUCT THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. If I didn’t, I woulda said something ignorant like “leave that VLS crap alone.. it’s like decah’s POS kit” sound familiar?? But then again, im not into insulting other ppl’s property, business ventures, or even simply something they like. So im not gonna do that. Besides, you’ve already beat me to it w/ the “VD/decah kits” which I *specifically* asked you not to conjoin repeatedly…and you simply and blatantly ignore.

To complete my thought, I said may, because it’s a possibility. It’s a POINT OF VULNERABILITY. You know when risk management comes in, they don’t asses in terms of “we HAVE a breach here” or “this sector HAS been compromised” cuz that’s dumb and pointless…you can see when somethin’s screwed up already lol. But what they do is aim to point at the WEAKEST points…or MOST VULNERABLE areas. Does this mean the overall design is weak, or the entire structure must be abandoned, as it is a direct and immediate threat? NO. It simply says, “hey, this point is your weakest area, this is where you should pay more attention, make the first improvements…and above all else, remember that I told you so” lol. So Bill, that's what my aim is/what I'm trying to say, but at the least..."i told you so"

Again, if I thought your kit was crap, I personally wouldn’t waste time discussing this… cuz I think the smart FD owners on this forum would figure that out in no time. But im takin this time cuz I think your product is pretty damn nice (and I have NO problem admitting it)…it could just use some more improvements to make it better. That, and as I said before, some things in it just aren’t what I’M looking for. But to each his own

My last note on the structural weak point is this example (only thing I could think of). Check out the FD’s 5th gear synchro. I don’t believe it inherently is fragile (or more fragile than it should be, given when it was made. Don’t compare it to the RX8s lol). The synchro’s just fine. But given the manner in which you shift from 2nd to 3rd gear, and having 5th right next to it, and because we drive our cars often, and get sloppy, are careless, we may miss a shift, and grind near 5th. We do it a cpl times…until one time, the straw breaks the camel’s back, and boom, you have one of the most common problems of the FD: broken 5th gear synchro. Now who’s to say mazda put together a shitty synchro to begin w/? (if they did, well take the essence of this example, don’t get **** and miss the point =P so what im saying is, that synchro is indeed a point of vulnerability. And ive been told (I cannot confirm, but offer solely as heresay) that mazda fixed that problem in the 94 and 95 models..i think they made stronger synchros. So again, was the synchro crappy to begin w/? probably not. Does it say the whole shifter component sux? Or the entire tranny is bad? Or even that the whole FD is a bad car? OF COURSE NOT. But due to the daily driver inevitable carelessness, it definetly tells you that particular SEGMENT of the WHOLE needed to be STRONGER. And that’s what im sayin. If you’re makin a kit strong enough for a daily driver, great…but that hinge thing is a point you wanna give some serious thought to improving upon. (I personally believe ppl wouldn’t mind the switching between vertical and OEM being a little more cumbersome at the expense of a more solid structure).

(for those of you who don’t like/find flaw in the synchro example, a perfect example still stands: your shoulder joint (more flexible, hence much more fragile and prone to dislocation and separation) vs. your elbow or knee joint (much less flexible, yet much more stable)

as for << If you could point me to where I have "tweaked things to portray them in a different light" please do so. I want things to be as clear as possible >>

hmm…did you read the sentence IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING that one? If you didn’t, plz go back and do. It’s there. I know, cuz I wrote it =)

OK...wrapping up…lol

<< So you are saying that the reason you chose less options is because... you dont have that many options now? That is a unique position, and I'm going to have to bank that other people with few options will appreciate more options >>

Dawg…c’mon. plz don’t make me repeat myself…you’re making this a habit. Am I with VD? NO. where did you portray things in diff light? I wrote it in the following sentence. Now this. I’mma get carpal tunnel syndrome re-typing all this jazz…

Basically my point was simple. Im going for how things LOOK over how many options they give me, since it’s a purely show modification. And for me, having the doors open as close to the body of the car as possible is as important as can be. Cuz that’s all LOOKS. I just personally don’t like how the VLS doors open outward. I don’t, that’s my opinion, and im sure everyone can think for themselves and see what they like and don’t like, and what they value more in this case..options, or look. And I clearly stated in the last thread..your kit whips the pants off the VD one when it comes to options. I’m even kinda jealous in that fact haha.

But would I have it any other way? A quick peek at the pic of the 7 that looks like it’s flying in your sig, and looking back at my car….and im as satisfied as can be =)

Also, I don’t have ceiling clearance issues as much as you do. Your doors open higher, so you have more of a clearance issue. Mine open straight up, but not as high. Plus, in reference to the space limitation question in a garage that MakoDHardie posted, since the VD kit opens more vertically, and less outward, I have even more lateral space in say, a garage type of parking than the VLS can offer. Definitely MUCH more than OEM opening.

On the whole airtight seal stuff…I have no idea. Really..i don’t recall having issues closing my doors stock, other than that I had to slam ‘em haha. Didn’t think too much into it regarding the whole airtight stuff and wut not. But ill hopefully post a video for clearance, profile, forward shot, closing and opening, etc, as will Bill, so everyone can come to their own unbiased opinions.

For the final stuff…(the most important too)

1) the VD kit DOES come w/ a warranty, cant remember how long, but I KNOW it’s limited (for a certain time period). So again, the VLS kit shines in that aspect, which is something I admire about Bill and his company. That’s how all products should be IMHO. But again, that doesn’t worry me, cuz the hinges are solidly made and are great quality, plus my car is gonna be a show car, so the use the doors are gonna see is minimal when compared to say, a daily driver (in which case warranty is much more relevant)

2) for the construction of the hinges itself, this is what I recall from memory (for more info, do your own homework, as VD). It’s made from hardened steel, CNC machined, all that jazz. It’s damn solid. And BOTH hinges together weigh 33 lbs I believe. The shocks are real strong…

MakoDHardie raises the question about the hinges being stronger than the door (which they are)…and the stresses they may cause. I ask in response, how many hundreds of cars come stock like that when it comes to the shocks on the trunk? Nothing happens to them, and those shocks are clearly stronger than the load they’re lifting, cuz once you hit the trunk release button, the trunk pops open. And if you wanna see CRUCIAL shocks, check out the ones on the 89 camry station wagon we have. Wow. That rear hatch weighs a ton, but the shocks raise that junx by itself!! So I cant see how this could be a bad thing, seeing that it’s employed on hundreds of cars. Also, correct me if im wrong, but don’t cars like Lamborghinis and Ferraris that have lambo doors stock have hinges on them that lift the doors themselves? Granted, their doors may be CF based and/or significantly lighter, but I was almost sure their doors are lifted up by themselves… which brings me to the whole issue of ****the doors lifting by themselves is the very *ESSENCE* of the exoticness IMO!!****

I dunno really what you were saying about the weather stripping taking a beating?? Its not involved/touched in closing or opening the doors expect in the stock manner. It’s hard to explain, but the door lends itself to moving laterally before being raised. So it’s not like the door is about to explode upwards 24/7 LOL…if that *was* the case id see your concern, but it’s not haha. The shocks are just stronger than the weight of the door.. they’re not strong enough to lift the car! haha

3) Before I make my absolute last point, I wanna stress that the only reason I got some more solid #s and facts wasn’t cuz I wanna go back and forth will Bill anymore.. but it’s more because he very astutely put me in a corner by saying
<< If you should decide to not respond I'll assume you agree, unless you can bring better evidence to the table, in which case we can certainly compare our materials, engineering, etc. I look forward to it. >>

so now it isn’t about me and him and the kits anymore…it’s about my credibility. And irregardless of the context, I take my credibility EXTREMELY seriously. In my culture, we have a saying, “a man’s word is a debt upon him” and “a man’s word is his honor” so this isn’t being taken lightly by me

VD is a serious company, and while they may not have the greatest website (lol…that’s an understatement…but yea) you gotta understand who they cater to, and who VLS caters to. VLS is targeting us…drivers. Ppl. Regular humans. That’s where they’re gonna make their big dollars…and that’s why they got the OEM AND vertical option. Please the ppl. And that’s great. But VD isn’t catering to us. Frankly, they don’t need us. Cuz VD deals w/ and makes vertical door kits for Veilside, Bomex, and other major companies to name a few. That’s a track record I can sleep comfortably w/ at night. So yea..a website isn’t gonna be their highest priority, when word on the professional street is their niche.

As for the whole issue of VLS doors not closing properly (and im limiting this to what I know…ON THE FD)…I haven’t forgotten about it. As promised, I had to wait till today to talk to the people and get their approval to quote them.

Naturally, Bill denied my claim. Hey, that’s all good, cuz my word’s been pretty much dismissed all throughout this thread by Bill. So I don’t expect him to believe me

He said << This should be interesting, because that was Jays freshly painted car. He either had the doors locked, or noone was allowed to go near it because he had a photo shoot for the cover of HCI that weekend... I'll be very interested to hear who has this first hand experience. I'll have to ask Jay who he let touch his car. >>

This may be true..i dunno, I wasn’t at SEMA. And I didn’t say they found out about the doors not closing properly at SEMA..and I didn’t say the doors don’t work properly.

Here’s what I said. The doors don’t line up properly when very close to the door (when you’re gonna give it that final push to lock the door onto the stock lock mechanism. Something about the way the doors come down vertically than close laterally makes it VERY difficult to have them align perfectly to center round the stock latch. And I totally can appreciate the amount of time & effort that goes into making this happen. But it doesn’t happen as good as can be, cuz the door lock area doesn’t line up w/ the latch exactly..giving you rub, or having to slightly lift or push down the doors when closing them. Point is, they don’t line up right.

I spoke AGAIN to Brandon from RX7Trix about this today, and he told me as clear as day he has no prob having me quote him on this, he said post it, have anyone who has a problem or questions call him and he’ll verify this. Him AND Pettit Racing (which im sure you all are familiar w/) know about the VLS doors not aligning properly and thus not shutting properly. (again im speaking ONLY about the VLS kit for FDs) In fact, Brandon knows Jay, who’s car Bill was referring to as being @ SEMA (did I lose you there w/ all the names? Haha)

Jay (if im correct) is the guy w/ the car in Bill’s (DeftSpyder’s) signature, the black FD w/ the VLS doors on it. Jay recently had his car painted orange and put an FD widebody kit on it. Apparently, the widebody helped w/ the doors closing somehow, but it still didn’t line up properly.

How does Brandon know? Brandon knows Jay, used to talk to him quite frequently, cuz Jay was getting support from Bandon (partial sponsorship I believe..or at least they were discussing it). Pettit knows Jay too…from back in the day in Florida (from what I’ve been told). And Pettit actually gave Brandon a call one day cuz he heard about MY doors from someone else…and apparently my doors are the ONLY ones that line up perfectly. And ya damn straight it took hours upon hours to get that right. So Bill, you were sorry that my guy had to work all that extra time, and I’m not…cuz it was well worth it.

I must admit, im kinda high on this fact lol, cuz there was a mini frenzy to check out my car, and see how my guy fixed the doors lining up issue…Dan’s a freakin genius and super perfectionist..wut can I say. Thank God. And that’s the whole Honest To God truth. Feel free to verify the story w/ Brandon.

And Bill..your doors are still great. Everything can use improvement, like mine needs a better warranty. Yours needs a little tweaking and fine adjustment (see the 4 pages above). No hard feelings…just lets not try and present our product as perfect…cuz it’s not. Nothing is..and I have yet to hear of a SINGLE drawback of your product from you. And to me…that’s like a car salesman. All good, no bad. I dunno bout others, but I prefer telling ppl both sides, and letting them come to their own conclusion, rather than shape things for be to profit now, and potentially lose a good rep later. And im definetly not blaming you for the doors not lining up thing…I believe you genuinely didn’t have any knowledge about it…but plz don’t call me a lair or ever question my credibility like that just cuz you don’t know. That’s your problem, and the burden of proof otherwise rests upon YOU.

Finally, thanx to RedRex, Shinobi-X, Herblenny and others who made all these tireless hours of writing posts worthwhile in my view, simply cuz I know they appreciate it, and it helped them in any way – even if that means buying the VLS. In fact, Id still be very happy and satisfied if that was the outcome…cuz my phiolosophy is, if it’s a genuine discussion, good can only come out of it…either you’re wrong, and you become aware of your mistake to correct it, or you’re right and you become even more steadfast in your ways…

Done.

deft_spyder

This is getting rediculous.

most of it isn't what he did say…it's what he DIDNT' say...ie, what he IMPLIED.

No, i just corrected you when you were wrong and guessing. If you do indeed have extensive communication skills, you'll see that.

I actually said that you are a beta tester for them. That means either you know them, or your installer does. When you said you were marketting to the forum, i took you at your word. Usually when people market, they do it for business reasons. If you are a beta car for them, and have no association, I apoligize.

Maybe we have diff communication styles, or maybe I’m not making myself clear.

This is very true. I dont speak about warranty, materials used to construct, weld points, engineering, etc if I dont know.

The 6” thing as well as “bulletproof” hinges were figurative

In a discussion of supposed facts, how are we to now know which are your "figurative" statements, and which ones you were really informed on? You just told us you didn't know thw strength to be "bulletproof", but even then, you follow by characterizing them as strong. Which is it? Do you just mean you personally looked at them and decided that, or do you have access to stress tests?

if one were careless (and this I don’t assume…this I find to be an inevitable fact, because again, your product is made for daily use, and use, abuse, carelessness and neglect eventually will happen, whether once or consistently, w/ a daily beater).

You find it an inevitable fact that in daily use someone will throw their vertical doors around? No one with vertical doors is treating it as a "beater". I know you just got your hinges and dont know, but really... you dont just start not paying attention to it. Youll learn this later.

Notice Bill I said MAY. I GIVE YOUR PRODUCT THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT

I REALLY look forward to when you begin to speak about the things you know about, and leave the speculation out. Statements like "may" dont help anything. Try words like "will". Again, you have NO experience with the VLS, and have no idea how the hinge that allows it to open OEM style is built or engineered. The hinge could very well be stronger than any other part of the kit, even stronger than stock... Do you see that its these statements that make me have to point out your lack of experience on this topic? It's not a personal attack, I just have to point it out. Quit taking it personal.

I'm sure noone gets anything out of your guesses here... we are discussing what we KNOW. You've spent alot of time telling everyone how implying things we dont know is bad. I hope you begin to utilize that ideal.

To complete my thought, I said may, because it’s a possibility. It’s a POINT OF VULNERABILITY.

You do know is risk management that there are scenarios that are ruled out because they are too implausible, right? Sure, I could guess that the added stress on the hinge and the sidewall from overfilled shocks might weaken the superstructure of the car over time, thus creating a weak point in the firewall, thus causing a fire hazzard... but I know thats not likely, so I dont guess about it. I stick to facts.

You only undermine your argument when it is filled with these clearly speculative theories. Lets save your guesses at out engineering when you have for once held a VLS in your hand.

but that hinge thing is a point you wanna give some serious thought to improving upon. (I personally believe ppl wouldn’t mind the switching between vertical and OEM being a little more cumbersome at the expense of a more solid structure).

At what point will you understand you have absolutely no qualification to make that assertion? Is anyone else just amazed that in the same post one can exault the values of not leading one astray, and then blatantly say we should look into improving our hinge at a point he's never laid his eyes on, much less knows about the engineering?

It is possible for our weakest point to be stronger than your strongest through materials and engineering (but not likely). When you learn that, you might understand that if something is engineered correctly, it will be just fine.

Also, I don’t have ceiling clearance issues as much as you do. Your doors open higher, so you have more of a clearance issue. Mine open straight up, but not as high.

This is true. With the kits that rotate in place (VD, Decah) and leave the door in front of the passenger compartment, obviously they arent as high as the VLS. The VLS gets the door much higher (out of the way of the passenger compartment). With the VD/Decah kits, the front part of the door will be overlapping your front fender.... thats how low it is.

the VD kit DOES come w/ a warranty, cant remember how long, but I KNOW it’s limited (for a certain time period).

I'm sure we all look forward to finding out what that warranty is, or maybe if you remember someday. It certainly isnt posted anywhere on the website that I could find.

that doesn’t worry me, cuz the hinges are solidly made and are great quality

so you DO know the materials, weld types, shock maker , how it was cut, etc? Or do you mean it -looks- good? There are many types of hardended steel. generally with shocks, its not how great they are when you get them, its how they perform a year down the road (and whether they are still warrantied). Our seals are rated for 10 years.


Also, correct me if im wrong, but don’t cars like Lamborghinis and Ferraris that have lambo doors stock have hinges on them that lift the doors themselves?

Again, I know you are new to this, so dont take this personal, but you should know that those vehicles were engineered with that in mind. Our cars were NOT, so the point at which the shock would cause stress is not specifically engineered for that load like the cars you mentioned are.... your example doesn't work at all. When we engineered the VLS we took into consideration that the vehicle was not made to do this.

I wanna stress that the only reason I got some more solid #s and facts

But you didnt... you told us the warranty was limited, but you didnt know how long, and the rest was "from your memory"... you told us hardedend steel, but not what kind, etc.

VD deals w/ and makes vertical door kits for Veilside, Bomex, and other major companies to name a few

These companies carry VD doors under their label? I have never seen a "veilside VD". If you just mean those companies have them on their cars... thats different. Decah has that, and we do too (I'd guess Decah would have far more than both us us combined)... but for example our kit was on both show cars at the Tokyo Auto Salon for Kaze... just check out their front page: http://kaze.mboso.ne.jp/index1.htm

Something about the way the doors come down vertically than close laterally

This is wrong, They close vertically, then horizontally, just like the VD does. Your second hand knowledge of the VLS once again fails you.

But it doesn’t happen as good as can be, cuz the door lock area doesn’t line up w/ the latch exactly..giving you rub, or having to slightly lift or push down the doors when closing them.

wrong. I will investigate this, because I have used them myself and have first hand knowledge of this not being true. Dont you think if it didnt line up we would fix that?? Your story just doesnt wash. Now, if your kit was out of alignment, then it might be higher or lower. So you loosen the bolts, realign it, and tighten down. Even if that problem arose somehow, it would be correctable. I just don't know where you get these ideas.

And Bill..your doors are still great. Everything can use improvement, like mine needs a better warranty. Yours needs a little tweaking and fine adjustment

so now your second hand information is fact? You REALLY need to stop talking about things you have no experience with.

Nothing is..and I have yet to hear of a SINGLE drawback of your product from you. And to me…that’s like a car salesman.

Now you are calling me a liar because I havent had to say bad things about the VLS? have you considered that much of what I said was just correcting you being wrong. This is laughable at this point. You're coming off like this because the VD has less options that I'm a used car salesman... which means I obscure the truth. If I sound like a cars salesman because I have been able to refute you point by point, so be it.

And im definetly not blaming you for the doors not lining up thing…I believe you genuinely didn’t have any knowledge about it

Assuming that at some point this was true, If on any VLS the vertical stop was higher or lower than it should be at some point, that is easily correctable, and should have been done at installation. That certainly wouldnt mean that the kit doesnt line up right all the time... that means it wasnt aligned upon installation correctly. That wouldn't be an engineering problem, that would be an install problem... and an easily fixable one at that.

Finally the end of your post. As people have told you. it's not personal, its just me correcting your assertions. Another disseration about honor and insults isnt needed, even though you've called me a used car salesman (which means liar... thanks)... Don't worry though, I certainly don't put any weight into your characterizations of me after the baseless rhetoric you've tossed around with no support.

For everyone else, I'm still here to answer your questions.

evot23

iTrader: (17)

OK, that was officially waaaay too much for me to read at 6:45 am.

The thread seems to be becoming less about the kit and more about you two defending yourselves. Though if it were me I'd be doing the same.

What we need is a side by side comparison of the two. Vids would be good.

I like the fact that the VLS allows you to open OEM.

I like the fact that the VD is more "true" to door lift, being closer to the car.

I like the VLS price better but not if the doors don't line up (conjecture here until I see it for myself)

and it goes on and on. Torn between each products good and bad.

Both kits seem to have good/bad from what I've read and thats ONLY from what I've read cause I've never seen either.

Cost is a big factor in my decision as it is and always will be a lot of money to put down for either kit. I will sacrifice more money for quality though.

I appreciate the posting from BOTH parties and look forward to hearing more and hopefully seeing more examples.

Lets keep it clean and professional.

deft_spyder

Ok, had Jay contacted directly now. When asked he doesn't remember a Brandon... I didn't remember the RX7trix name though. But, I think that your story is coming from the RX7 when it was black, not orange, but I can now address both.

I talked to the engineer today, and he told me that if you are referring to the car when it was black, then you're referring to the beta VLS. Even then, any alignment issue was just that the kit was not positioned correctly.... which is a correctable problem.

Now, when he painted it orange he also recieved the final VLS version (which is now the version in production). I aksed if there was ANY issue with the new version of Jays car (orange, new wide body kit from japan) that might lead someone to mistakenly think there was something wrong with the VLS. This is what I was told (from Jay himself). (BTW, if you would like to see this widebody kit up close, turn to page 32 of HCI magazine, there are 3 pages about the transformation after the article on the car).

On the passenger side the sideskirt is mounted slightly too high, which means that the door has to be lifted slightly to clear it. They are remounting the side skirt correctly to allow the door to close correctly. It has been explained to me that this is not a problem with the VLS, as a stock door would have the same issue (side skirt is to high).

At SEMA we had the drivers door open only, so I did not personally run into this issue.

So you see the latching is perfect, but being an after market widebody kit, the sideskirt is out of alignment with the door, not the door out of alignment with the latching mechanism.

When they remount the side skirt, in the correct height, this problem will be alleviated. If this had been a problem with the VLS, I would have known.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Here we go again...

If you believe just calling you a car salesman implies me saying you’re a liar, so you’re supporting the assertion that your second guessing me, questioning what I state and claim (even when providing proof), and your simple and total disregard of what I say is obviously WAY past you calling me a liar.

Oh and btw…saying that “or maybe if you remember someday” lol… yea like it’s selective memory at this point, right? I’m not trying to hide anything, and im not trying to do other ppl’s homework either. If you think it’s foolish of me not to know the specifics and details of the kit I own down to the tee, that’s cool…then you and everyone else, just don’t be like me. Find out for a fact what you need to know before buying. Facilitating, I can do. Spoonfeeding, I can’t (but I agree, if I were in your position, and this were MY kit, I would most definitely be spitting out #s and specs and what not to endless measure, cuz it’s MINE)

as far as im concerned, i found out ENOUGH to satisfy me there. And there are a gazillion things on my car that i'm not quite totally sure HOW they work, or their specs, but i know their result (x amount of horsepower, etc etc) and that's just how it is w/ me.

Also, you misunderstood what I meant to say. I don’t think you’re lying. What I meant by the car salesman is more towards “misleading.” And that I definitely have no problem saying. Presenting all the good, and none of the bad (which was my clarification, so you WOULDN’T take it as lying…rather misleading) is *skipping over* some points, and focusing on the ones that do you the most good. No lying involved. So don’t take what you called me and flip it back

I honestly don’t recall the whole “coming on the forum to marked the VD kit” part. Did I say that? (im not saying I didn’t…cuz I cant recall, but that would indeed be very unsual). Because my intention – as was clearly stated numerous times - was to give different options and perspectives, and let ppl decide for themselves. That’s all. In fact, on second thought, I specifically recall saying a few posts ago that I wasn’t gonna go back and forth w/ you about specifics because I didn’t feel i should be marketing a product that wasn’t mine, and that I had no stake in/benefit from. I’ll leave that for VD’s marketing department to handle.

I disagree w/ you over the daily beater issue…that’s the very nature of man. When new, it’s golden, pampered, never abused. But as time passes, you get sloppy. Whether it’s on purpose, or you were just in a hurry…it happens. I can’t fathom how you’d say this would NEVER occur. That’s like saying no one has ever been in too much of a hurry so they followed the car in front of them too closely, or pushed the car too hard, or even parked too close/too far in a spot, nicking or scratching the bumper or what not. IT HAPPENS.

Based on that, you’re right, I don’t have the VLS, but if you’re buying something this complex, it’s practically your basic duty to speculate and ask and question possible vulnerabilities or issues before buying. That stands true across the board… that’s why on the forum we have great guys who test something out, then review it.

Example…there’s a huge on-going debate for a LONG time now about torque braces… and how they can “theoretically” put more stress by giving the engine less room to play.. esp. if you have bad motor mounts, etc. and while no one has used it long enough to really analyze exact raw data if it’s true or not, the debate still continues (thanks to Herblenny’s latest post LOL)…because lack of experience does NOT negate laws of physics. And that’s what I’m arguing. Just like the 2nd to 3rd or 5th gear scenario. Because you CAN go into 5th from 2nd, but you DON’T WANT TO, you can get that rubbing when sloppy. Now if the car had only 4 gears, there would never ever be that issue, since there would be no gear next to 3rd. You see my point?

So call it guesses or speculative theories…I encourage that, cuz I never claimed to be MR LAMBO DOOR EXPERT, (and I obviously know less about the VLS than you do, since you make it, and have 1st hand experience w/ it)..but I must say my years of higher education have thankfully given me a very good understanding of the necessary physics and forces behind it. So it’s really that simple. On this forum, speculative and possible theories are very logical and to be expected. Why? Cuz ppl care about their FD too damn much to allow oversight of possible issues to bite them in the butt later on down the road. So if all this hypothesizing proves to be wrong in the long run, trust me, it can’t hurt your kit at ALL. Rather, it’ll boost ppl’s confidence in your kit, cuz anytime someone wonders about that issue, someone will be like “nah man…that issue was debated to death on the forum. We’re sure it’s not gonna be a problem..”

The ONLY problem I still have (and the very reason I continue to mention these possible issues) is because you have yet to *specifically* refute them. You basically dismiss my argument by saying I don’t have enough experience, I haven’t seen them first-hand, etc… all INDIRECT methods of attacking my argument. I want DIRECT responses, ie, “hey FDNewbie, while you raise a good point, this doesn’t apply to our doors because…” or “yea we thought of that, but because of this possible issue, we did this and that to our hinges…” yet all you’ve offered is pretty much as much as I have offered… a number here and there, and a claim that it’s very sturdy and well engineered. So don’t find fault in my point when I did the same you did lol

And again, if im wrong, don’t go on about how im ignorant and don’t know this or that.. JUST ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION/CONCERN!! Lol. That’s what I wanna hear. And TRUST me…when/if you do…and if it’s satisfactory answer that’ll put my head and others’ to rest, you’ll see me say, “Hey Bill..thanks for the clarification. I’m glad we got that issue straightened out.” And leave it at that.

Thanks for admitting the clearance issue is more for your doors than the VD. That’s a start. Now as for getting in and out of the car, like I said, im leaving that one alone for a video to speak for itself.

This following point isn’t an argument...it’s a question. The showcars on the site you linked to…are those show cars of a body kit manufacturer, or are they someone’s own personal car that’s on display at the car show? Cuz my point is companies like Veilside and Bomex are getting their *manufacturer showcar* (if that’s wut its called) equipped w/ VD’s lambo doors…vs. someone like me or you or jay just entering our car into a car show. Personal vs. professional, you feel me?

Quick point: vertical then lateral is the SAME is vertical then horizontal. Lateral movement is movement IN the horizontal plane…so there was no need to correct me there

Final point: you obviously hadn’t spoken to Jay in your first reply, cuz in the second one you said you had just spoken to him. So how on EARTH can the FIRST WORD you say be “WRONG.” in your 1st reply to my claim that Jay’s doors don’t close right?

That’s simply and purely irresponsible…and even more so coming from you, since you’ve been pounding me all week now about talking about what I have no first hand knowledge of. You hadn’t even taken the opportunity to validate or disprove my claim yet!! Lol…you CANT just throw it out the window…unless we’re operating on emotions and not facts

As for the FACTS…maybe Jay didn’t remember Brandon by name. Try the RX7Trix name. I mean, I got a DETAILED story…the discussion they had and what was said back and forth. To the point that Brandon told me Pettit knows Jay, cuz Jay used to cut their grass for them back in the day or something like that lol…THAT’S how detailed it was. And Pettit knows of the doors issue as well like I said, cuz he’s the one that alerted Brandon that my kit is the ONLY one now that’s opening and closing perfectly.

So now that you’ve somewhat validated, you got two excuses. Black car = beta version, which strangely is the one you advertise by and is in your sig. Then the widebody has a sideskirts issue.

1) Brandon specifically told me that the widebody HELPED the problem somewhat, as compared to before…ie, somehow it’s easier to operate the doors and get them to latch perfectly on a widebody than a stock car…which would be a further point of concern.

2) sideskirts…hmm. For sideskirts to be mounted too high to interfere w/ the door shutting, there would actually have to be a part of the sideskirt extending beyond the door area…ie the sideskirt rides higher than the door frame itself. That’s very peculiar as to I cant imagine how someone professional enough to put together a widebody kit could leave skirts like that…plus, if that’s the case, the skirts would have to give you problems opening AND closing the door, cuz you’d have to clear them in both directions. It sounds to me like the door sits a bit too low, and thus clips the skirts and edge of the door frame…

plus the door aligning issues weren’t referenced to Brandon or Pettit as “A door” or “the passenger side door,” rather it was “THE DOORS” but I guess I can’t expect you to admit any fault or minor flaw/adjustment necessary in the VLS…cuz im always completely wrong, and the VLS is perfect…

in any case, the issue exists, it hasn’t been resolved YET…and that’s really the final issue at hand. Until the issue is fully and completely resolved, it’s still and issue. And mine doesn’t have those issues. Period.

Finally, I have skirts on my car, mazdaspeed GTC sideskirts to be exact, and they are probably THE HARDEST SKIRTS to align perfectly, since they outline the door frame COMPLETELY from the bottom, left, and right. And I mean OUTLINE. They sit on the very edge/lip of the door frame. They ride the highest it gets when it comes to sideskirts (as far as my knowledge goes). Yet I still to have a single issue w/ closing my doors…

deft_spyder

How about you just PM me your personal problems with me, and save the board.

The showcars on the site you linked to…are those show cars of a body kit manufacturer, or are they someone’s own personal car that’s on display at the car show? Cuz my point is companies like Veilside and Bomex are getting their *manufacturer showcar* (if that’s wut its called) equipped w/ VD’s lambo doors…vs. someone like me or you or jay just entering our car into a car show. Personal vs. professional, you feel me?

Yes, that is KAZE-aero Japans corporate site. The VLS is on their company show cars, as they were displayed at the Tokyo Auto Salon.

Final point: you obviously hadn’t spoken to Jay in your first reply, cuz in the second one you said you had just spoken to him. So how on EARTH can the FIRST WORD you say be “WRONG.” in your 1st reply to my claim that Jay’s doors don’t close right?

Because you were wrong... it wasnt a problem with the VLS... I have experience with more than one RX7 VLS, so if it were a problem with all of them, then it would have manifested itself in more than one. I verified and was correct... its not the VLS.

but I guess I can’t expect you to admit any fault or minor flaw/adjustment necessary in the VLS…cuz im always completely wrong, and the VLS is perfect…

I thought I said if it goes out of alignment, that is correctable by aligning it. yes, it could go out of alignment.

Finally, I have skirts on my car, mazdaspeed GTC sideskirts to be exact, and they should be the hardest skirts to align perfectly, since they outline the door frame from the bottom, left, and right. And I mean OUTLINE. They sit on the very edge/lip of the door frame. They ride the highest it gets when it comes to sideskirts. Yet I still to have a single issue w/ closing the doors…

How this applies to Jays car, I don't know. But Jays passenger skirt was too high. Thats it.