I think I've reached the limits of my mechanical capabilities. I've got the car to fire after rebuilding, porting, and rewiring. I think I need a tune but I'm not sure how to go about it since the car needs to be broke in before it gets tuned. but I think it needs a tune to run properly before I can break it in. Right now I've got a base map for an FD that I think was close enough to start up but I can get it to run with the fuel pump on, it seems to just flood itself with the pump on. Is there a better base map for what I have that can get me by until I'm ready for a power tune? Or am I just going to have to bite the bullet and pay to have it tuned twice?

1989FC 13B 6 port SP
50MM ITB
AEM Smart Coils
X4 ID1050X

 

You dont need to have it tuned twice. The base map they have really just contains rough conservative values and has the I/O setup for the default configuration of the car.

Idle is a finicky thing and varies alot between each and every car, especially modified ones, due to differences primarily in porting and intake setup. By setup, I dont necesarily mean hardware so much as hardware adjustment like the throttle plate set and bleed screw positions. The car may very well run perfectly fine on the basemap for break-in, however you will need to correctly modify the basemap to include the injector, fuel pressure, and ignition coil settings specific to your setup and then mechanically troubleshoot the idle until you get it stable.

So are you saying that when you go to crank it to fire it just wants to flood and not fire? Attach the basemap file you are using if you can.

Skeese

 

Also, how is the elite wired in? You using the oem harness and a patch or a custom wired harness?

The issue may very well lie in the input/outout setup of the fd basemap you are not using not matching the configuration of the harness of a S5.

Skeese

 

If your tuning on the street just to get it up and going, you will be fine. Will rack up the 600km before you know it. Will have a basic LTFT in the system and then go to the dyno to stretch its legs (Engine and tune)

 

Thanks for the info Skeese. It is wired through the premium harness haltech sells. After playing around with it a bit there was some things that was not set up correctly based of an XL file I got off Injector Dynamics website. I cant figure out how to attach the file that holds my ECU map. Would it help if I attached a picture of my overall map. I messed with the overall percentages trying to get my AFR to raise off of the 7.4 it was reading before I changed the flow rates. I haven't tested this on the car yet as I think now it will be too lean but I'm not sure what this should look like.

 

7.4 is often the bottom end of where a standard 0-5v wideband reads. Is the calibration set up correctly in the ecu settings? I am thinking that may need to be adjusted for the wideband you have feeding it as Im not sure if you can even idle at a true 7.4

If You save the file then zip it into a .zip folder rx7club will let you upload the zip file. I think your issues lie somewhere in the setup, not necessarily the fuel map.

Skeese

 

If you have 7.4 showing in your AFR map. then your using the wrong or old Haltech base map for 13B Rotor engines.

http://files.haltech.com/downloads/E...8_basemaps.zip

 

Why do you say that? I know the latest esp software will read a 7.4 low voltage signal as that's what my old innovate would output to the ecu during sensor warm up and the ecu would reflect the 7.4 -7.5 value in the wideband o2 gauge until sensor was hot and signal went live to active afr.

The issue is either in the calibration or pinout, related to wideband o2 or fuel injectors. The image he posted isn't an AFR map, its the base fuel table with values so low its absolutely certain there is a major fueling issue.

I'll check out the tune when I get home. If anything, I'm sure a quick log of this happening will make it clear of the curlprit factor should it not stick out in the tune.

Skeese

 

Skeese Thanks man for the help I'll try saving it as a .zip and up load it on to here. I did some more messing aroung and it turns out the Innovate o2 wasn't calibrated in the haltech software according to the setup guide that came with the wideband.

 

My map should be attached as a .zip now.

 

That could very well be the reason for three super rich readings. It could have gotten really weird if you had o2 control turned on too, which I think the basemap does.

Once we get the file all lined up between calibrations, IO setup, injector and ignition settings it should fire up and idle with just some minor map/throttle body tweaks.

I personally sort idle and idle fueling in open loop so you get a clean basis for the o2 control self learning trims to work off of, then you'll be set to set to closed loop and go gently ride around for break in which will also start shaping the basemap to suit your car. You'll probably need to pull amd clean or replace your plugs between now and firing again, as regardless of what caused the rich condition they probably saw some seriously rich cycles and may be fouled or at least dirty.

Skeese

 

So call me crazy for not thinking to ask until now, but is this a turbo car or a NA setup? I just assumed it was a turbo, but I need to break that habit.

Looking at the map now, but whether this is or is not a turbo car really dictates where the setup goes from here. There are things I would change either way, but don't know which direction to go in.

Skeese

 

6 port N/A 50MM ITB Large Street port intake and exhaust, x4 ID1050X, x4 AEM Smart Coils, Stock Coolant temp sensor, 0-150 PSI oil pressure sensor, FC3S style CAS, Hall Style TPS, Innovate Dual Wideband but only rotor 2 is hooked up to the ECU. I think that's it for the ECU inputs. Also it is all wired through the Haltech premium Wire Harness. I did everything myself and kindof had to learn a lot of it as I went along so I'm surprised its made it this far LOL.

 

Excuse the Quality of the pics I only have an iPhone 4. I also have a build thread in the 2nd gen threads. https://www.rx7club.com/build-thread...k-ups-1074841/

 

All good! I learned that way too and became well versed in it the hard way as well. That being said...

We are going to want to construct you a unique basemap for your setup, as it varies quite a bit from the s6 FD setup. The sensor calirations will all need to be setup in the ECU to match those you have in the car, and we will need to verify the timing settings are correct for the FC3s CAS setup. I think Havoc went through this, or maybe he was on the FFE. Either way I have the correct settings on a map from a running FC3S CAS car on my hard drive at home.

All of the boost related tables and functions will be altered to remove the positive pressure regions as they are no longer needed. Is this a return style fuel system and if so does the regulator have vacuum line attached? This is important to know for your injector settings as they are currently setup to reflect a map referenced return style fuel system.

I dont know about the settings for the hall style TPS, but I'm assuming I'll be able to find what we need in the manual.

I think the biggest change needed is going to be moving from MAP based tables (map vs rpm) to a TPS based tables (tps vs rpm). This is commonly the best practice for a NA car especially one with ITBs as you lose map/vacuum on quite small throttle openings making it extremely difficult to tune using map as the load reference at low rpm. Combine this with the fact that past 30% tps on an ITB setup you wont see much deviation in MAP value which would cause the fueling/ignition output to be the same at 40% throttle as 100% throttle in those same regions of the tune.

sorry for the drawn out response. It took me a long time to wrap my head around the TPS load tuning rationale, but it really is the best way, and possibly only way, to construct a functional running tune for your car for break-in. Otherwise its gonna take a ton of picky tuning to get it to drive right or consistant.

let me know on the fuel system setup and I can reconfigure a tps load tune file for your setup. Then once ready we can do a screenshare and have a quick call and I'll run you through it. It makes way way more sense when explained verbally while looking at it.

Skeese

 

Again thank you!! The fuel system is a return style. The FPR is attached to a vacuum block. Right now I have the PSI set to as close to 43.5 as I could. The pic is an earlier version of how I have the Vacuum block. Its still in the same spot but that was before I had the FPR attached. one line to the ECU, one to the brake booster, 2 from the Engine and one to the FPR.

 

"Why do you say that? I know the latest esp software will read a 7.4 low voltage signal as that's what my old innovate would output to the ecu during sensor warm up and the ecu would reflect the 7.4 -7.5 value in the wideband o2 gauge until sensor was hot and signal went live to active afr." yeah I was replying to map not the reading.

wow mine literally comes on and reads in 0.5/s (is the haltech unit).. But as you have picked up it's not calibrated.

13bREW:
Are you running a static fuel pressure? Or running a fuel pressure sensor? just how does it know that the injector pressure differential will be (I have this off. I'm just curious)

Personally, my tuner changes the stock haltech timing map considerably.

Did you think about running 2 injectors in the Primary locations? Just to help low speed and idle control. Then the other 2 in the IDA manifold? (As I'm guessing your injecting firing angles for both currently should be the same for stage 1 and 2 as their in the same location)

Stock map doesn't have autocalc for air temp on. so good to see you have that on.

If you do turn on the LTFT (which I'm expecting you will) some of us have had issues with it activating. I had to Zero out the last row (30sec) in the Post start correct map.Otherwise, the LTFT wouldn't turn on. Was just a bug, I hope its been fixed.

I added quite a bit more resolution in the idle ranges. I guessing you still need to do this generically

 

Yeah we have been messaging off the thread and covered most of this. This is a return style fuel system with a map referenced regulator, but on a NA car the fuel pressure will be nearly static since you dont have to fight the boost pressure across the injector, and there is no fuel pressure sensor. In turn the injector flow and dead times need to have variable fuel pressure removed from the tables and instead be set for only base fuel pressure. When I had it setup to account for variable fuel pressure but had no sensor, it defaulted to the lowest fuel pressure in the table and then overfueled the engine flooding it as it thought it was flowing less than it was.

The primaries and secondaries are at the same height in the manifold, just on opposite sides. So firing angles will be changed to be the same, then altered together to find the sweet spot once running.

The auto VE calculation for air temp will remain on and the air temp comp tables will be zeroed in the nominal operating range and only add/subtract extra in extreme cases to avoid stacking the correction. I've found the auto VE for air temp to be very accurate so no need to manually control it on top of that.

I learned about the LTFT and coolant enrichment snag from your thread, so that will be changed too.

and lastly, I always opt for tuning idle in open loop with no fuel trims and getting the map to a reasonably close value for the ecu to work off of.

I think the kicker with this whole setup is going to be whether we use tps load sensing for fuel and ignition or map load. The ITB causes the need for tps load in a NA car since tiny throttle changes can result in large map fluctuations down low and that you can reach max map at low tps and then it hold across the rpm range the same as it would at WOT.

Hoping to update tune file today and post the new version here. In the meantime the OP has gone through the deflood procedure, cleaned plugs, and recalibrated the o2's to prep the car for a first fire on the new tune file.

Will also be calibrating all the sensor inputs before firing too.

Skeese

 

Attached is my first pass at the new map to get it up and going. Sorry it took so long, I've been beyond swamped at work. The big change was the change to TPS load sensing for the fuel and ignition maps, but I also changed the injector settings to remove the fuel pressure referenced flow, turned off a bunch of leftover stuff from the FD base-map you didn't need, and added variable dwell for the coils among other little things.

EDIT
I won't claim to specifically know or have experience with NA tuning, but did some research on the NA 6 port before I made the timing map. The leading timing was based off of input experienced tuners and racers across this forums and the internet. I also referenced the NA rx8 renesis leading timing map for general NA structure. The split I made up entirely based on what I know about the rotary in general. If anyone has input feel free to comment on the leading timing and split. I'm confident it is safe, but not sure if it is ideal. Same with the Alpha-N setup.

Either way the OP got it to fire up and idle on first crank with the new map, so something went right. Will follow up with tuning a solid idle then getting the file ready for break-in miles.

Skeese

 

Interesting to hear the results.

Personally, Id change the 02 control LTFT Gain. I think its a better solution when is a derivative of the pedal angle (TPS D % /sec)

 

For driving tuning maybe, but the difference in what that records will be minimal given this file is meant to first get the car started and running for the first time, and then go through break in. No heavy transients should be present...

Skeese

 

OP update. First off Skeese has been helping me out a ton with this and I can thank him enough LOL. We got the car to fire and hold an idle AFRs around 13.5 with a couple renditions of the initial base map. The throttle plate stop adjustment and Idle bleed screws needed adjustment and still may need some later. We were about to do another tweak to the basemap when I lost power to my ECU and LC-2 and couldn't log another engine startup with a little more throttle input. Turned out to be just a fuse for the switch power coming from the factory harness. Now that that is sorted I'm going to set the timing with a light and log the startups like we planned and get back at it.