Carl Byck

In have a E6K. The car was running perfectly. Steve Kan recently tuned the car, but was not able to finish due to lack of fuel above 1 bar. Now what happens is that the car(warm, or cold) has an idle that is bouncing about 50rpm. This is not bad, though it never did it before. The real problem is that if I apply light throttle anywhere from idle to ~2500rpm, I get a 500 rpm bounce. I do not mean the tach bounces 500 rpm, I mean the car surges, and slows repeatedly. If I apply the throttle slowly up from idle, the behavior continues until it suddenly surges to 3000rpm. Above 3000rpm the gas stays steady up to red line. It does this with, or without a load. I know it's something simple, Help please. Thanks, Carl

DigitalSynthesis

Its running slightly lean in those ranges, most likely. I find that surging no-load conditions usually = very lean on a wideband. I could be very wrong and there are certainly other causes, but when I tweak my idle (which I am prone to do being a tweakhead) and I get it too lean, it does exactly that.

With a load.. might still be lean hesitations. Do you have a wideband? Can you check the AFRs when it's doing this?

Carl Byck

Thanks, I'll check it out. I do have a WBO2. Carl

enzo250

Your lean. Check your maps...

Carl Byck

What AFRs should I be aiming for from say 700-3000rpm at light load? I'll post this seperately, but in an effort to fix the problem, I loaded my old map back in. Now the car will not start. When Steve first started tuning my car, he adjusted the CAS, and then entered his new fuel, and timing values. It seems that I have to restore the timing as it was in order for my original map to function correctly is this right?

Carl Byck

O'k I see that I need to zero out my timing. One problem is that I have five (5) timing marks... Any way to zero timing without knowing which mark is whitch? I am asuming the addditional marks have to do with the porting on the motor, but I do not know for sure.

DigitalSynthesis

I'd run Steve's map, and just tweak it a smidge. It sounds like the car was drivable beforehand and the timing does not change unless you deliberately mess with the ignition values (which you should record in a safe place -- e.g. on paper somewhere) for posterity. Once your timing is set it should not have to change unless you pull out the CAS and re-stab it.

Put Steve's map back in the unit. If you want to verify your timing you can, but if the car was running perfectly above 3k I'd say your timing was fine.

Under light load your afr's should be ~11.6-12.3 at idle. Basically sit with your car in the driveway, let it warm up, get the idle running smoothly, and then rev it to the next rpm point, tune that smoothly, rev it to the next rpm point, etc.... that will tune no load nicely. When you tune these points, you don't really tune by AFR you tune by how smooth the engine is at that point and just keep track of the AFR to make sure you aren't going wack. E.g. if you are below the 11's or above the 14's, there's most likely a problem with your fuel setting for that no-load point.

After that, then you just smooth out the other fuel maps so that your changes flow smoothly into the rest of the map Steve made for you. Fuel bars should never have sudden jumps except at the staging point (which is probably around bar 12) where the fuel flow usually drops by about half when the secondary injectors come online.

I do hope you saved Steve's map when you overwrote it with your other one...

DigitalSynthesis

Ok... fast way to tell... pop out the rear rotor's spark plugs. Spin the e-shaft by hand until you can see an apex seal through the top hole (you'll probably need a dentist's mirror or something to help you see in well). Then put a small mark on the pulley under the pin at this location. Rotate the shaft until you see the SAME apex seal in the lower hole. Mark the pulley here too. Exactly in between those marks is TDC. Now, from that TDC mark on your pulley, 5mm (on the stock pulley, at least) to the passenger side of the car is where the stock mark would be. 5 deg. ATDC. That mark is the only mark you really care about when setting timing, so go ahead and carry that mark straight across all flanges of that monster pulley so you know exactly which mark is the one you want. All the other marks are probably there from someone doing this method before.

I think I got this from TeamFC3S's writeups. I've posted a link to it before but I can't seem to find it now. Anyway, credit where credit is due.

Carl Byck

Thanks, that helps ALOT. I saved Steves map. Basically the difference between Steve's and the other was as follows with the original followed by Steves;
-10 split change to 12 across the board
-16*@1 bar, 12@*@2bar changed to 14@1bar, 0*(I think) @2 bar
-Then tuned AFRs due to changing from a .81 p trim TO4S to a .81 Q trim T66.
we got as far as 1 bar, and had to stop as the fuel pressure was falling on its face, too small a pump to go farther, and too small wires to pump. Also Fans were pulling 60 amps which did not help ignition, or fuel delivery.

DigitalSynthesis

Damn son. Those are some serious fans. I'm not a huge "fan" of electric fans, due to the electrical load and the fact that they have not been proven to be better than the stock clutch fan. Yeah the stock fan is a BITCH when it comes to doing belt work or whatnot, but damn it keeps my car cool and uses NO electricity! So, I'm happy with it for now, despite all my friends wanting me to bling up my Fluidyne with an e-fan.

In terms of maps and whatnot, usually its better to keep what your tuner did in terms of timing quiet. Fuel maps are widely discussed, timing is the trick of the trade so to speak, and while Steve may not mind you sharing the information you just did, he might. So before you release any further timing details, check with him.

Anyway, go from where you were, follow the info you have, and let's see where we can get your car.

First order of business though: get a better fuel pump, rewire it (I ran power straight from the Haltech relay via 10 gauge automotive wire), and fix that fan amperage problem. Also get an FD alternator. So far I'm using this combo and I love it. It seems to be doing just fine, but I haven't done any insane mods to my fuel system or turbo yet. Those are coming once I pay down my credit cards substantially. E.g. next year.

Carl Byck

Yea, as far as timing Steve has posted those numbers before, they are a sticky on the top of the Single turbo section, in fact that thread is an excellent read, with commentary from Steve, Hitman, Rice racing, gregory monsen, and others. I am already running an FD alternator. I think the problem is largely limited to the dyno, as my fans rarely come on while at speed. I have a very large Griffen with a custom AST, two FC oil coolers, lots of duct work, and a reverse cowl hood. I have an Aeromotive A1000, and I have two walbros. I was trying to decide if I should add a sump, and use the A1000, or use a walbro to each rail.

DigitalSynthesis

Damn dude. That's insane. Makes all the work I've done look small. But yeah, surging and low power stuff I've handled the tuning for myself, and that's pretty universally applicable. Just check your AFRs, add a bit more fuel until she quits surging, and play around. Stay away from messing with the boost region and you'll be fine. In fact, playing with the < 0 psi region a bit is a great way to learn.

Carl Byck

O'k no way I can see the apex seal(esp. through the trailing hole), I tried with a light, and a mirror. What other options do I have? Perhaps you could walk me through it. Will I need a timing light? Any thoughts on why a map that was perfect before would be so lean as to not hold a particular RPM now? Basicly, I went from an old dirty K&N and a 2.5" inlet to a 4" turbo compressor inlet with just a screen over it (temporarily), and from a 3.5" DP/ RB dual to a 3.5" DP into 3" piping into an N1 single. would that be enough to throw off my no load/no boost AFRs? I do have my E6K manual, but I feel like I am getting lost in it. I will re-read the ignition set up section again, but I definitely need my hand held Thanks Carl

DigitalSynthesis

Um. Yeah. There's your cause. You're breathing a lot more air than the engine was before. Hence, lean conditions. No load actually is pretty sensitive to the mix once it hits a certain spot. I find that once it starts going leaner than about 12.5 you start getting problems. And if it was set up for 12.3 afr, you start flowing more air and you put yourself in the 12.8-13+ range and you get surging. It gets better on boost since by then the turbo is the controlling factor in the airflow equation and that hasn't changed.

I haven't actually had to do this trick, but I know people who have. Just find whatever combination works for you. Remember the rotor spins at 1/3rd the shaft speed so if you spin the shaft a full revolution you'll only get 1 of the 3 apex seals passing by. I would assume a very bright light is necessary so you can see into the plug hole. I would NOT recommend sticking your finger or a tool or something into the hole as a gauge. It will either be severely hurt (your finger) or could damage the rotor/seal (anything else).

You will obviously need a timing light to set your timing. But again, I must re-iterate if your timing was not off before it shouldn't be off now unless you have removed and re-inserted the CAS. Timing is not the reason you are running lean.

RETed

Get rid of that screen and get a real air filter.
Having that screen on is a dangerous if not restrictive inlet to the turbo.
I've seen screens get sucked into turbos, and you can imagine what kinda damage it's going to do.

You would think a screen over the inlet would bee freer flowing, but it's not.
Having the screen so close to the inlet "magnefies" the screen dimensions, so it's actually more restrictive versus a properly sized air filter.

For your power levels, I'd recommend a K&N RE-880, which is one of the largest K&N filters made for a 4" I.D.

BTW, that surging problem could also be a badly calibrated TPS.
If the TPS sees "0" at a higher RPM over your decel-cut setting, it will try and kill the engine.
Are you running decel-cut on?


-Ted

Carl Byck

So, we know why I am lean, I suppose Steve missed it on the dyno since we were always WOT, thus some boost. I am thinking that I was going to take Steve's on boost portion of the map, and the balance of my original map(had excellent driveability). With that in mind I loaded my old map back in. Since I reloaded my old map, do I need to Zero the timing? If I go back to Steve's map do I still have to zero the timing. I remember reading a post that said you must always zero the timing when changing maps. Since I had a hole in my manifold while Steve was tuning(EGT probe was not in place, thus there was a 1/4" hole in one exhaust runner), it seems to me that all the fuel mapping he did will be invalid, yes? Basicly, my turbo spooled about 1000 rpm slower than it shoud have. I am assuming/hoping that this was due to the hole in the exhaust manifold. This is soooo much fun... I just want to drive arghhh.

Carl Byck

BTW, I did rotate the CAS, but I did not remove it. I have since returned it to the position Steve had it(rotated full clockwise). Do I need to start over?


BTW, I really appreciate your patience, I play a similar role to yours here on the race forum, the suspension forum, and the single turbo forum. Here I am a newbie, thanks.

DigitalSynthesis

^^^ What ReTed said. He's one of the local Gods of the Haltech. And the rotary in general.

DigitalSynthesis

I'll pretty much hand this over to ReTed at this point... but I'd like to point out that to my knowledge, maps do NOT contain any basically fundamental car information such as CAS/Ignition setup or Fuel setup. They are just that: maps only. So I don't believe you need to touch your timing at all when changing maps. Perhaps on another platform or older Haltechs but on the E6X, I am pretty sure (e.g. changed several maps myself without touching timing) you don't need to.

You only need to reset timing when the CAS has been physically moved. Since you moved it, I'd reshoot the timing, yes. Its worthwhile to do so. But if you never touch it again, you should never have to play with timing again. Just remember the numbers on the ignition setup page that got you to perfect timing and as long as they don't change, neither will your timing.

RETed

Yep, it is always a good habit to check ignition timing.
It's not required when you haven't touched the ignition input (i.e. CAS), but I tend to side on paranoia when we do mess with changing maps just to make sure.
It should not change if the CAS wasn't messed with and the ignition settings (i.e. tooth offset, angle offset) are the same numbers, but it doesn't hurt to double-check with the timing gun.


-Ted

pluto

Carl,
The part throttle map wasn't tuned. I think I leaned out to what I think should be instead of actually tuning it since the driver on the dyno didn't know what he was doing and I spend more time trying to look at things on the passenger side than actually modifying the map. Hopefully if I do come back next time, I can actually do the driving myself because I could have saved everybody alot more money on dyno time and get alot more accomplished than having someone doing the driving.

Carl Byck

Thanks to Digital(what is your name?), Steve, and Ted. Steve, would you mnd giving an overview of what you feel I should do next? I'm sure it was frustrating for you, between my mechanical issues, and the Dyno guys. I must say, that I am a tad bit tense about having spent ~500.00(dyno, and Steve combined) and feeling farther away than when I started.
Steve, could I call you, and have you walk me through this next bit? I feel pretty confident that my local mechanic and I can get this thing close, we just have some questions. Since I moved the CAS, and then moved it back, would my timing still be O'k, or does it "drift" once moved? Steve, working clockwise there was a black mark, followed by two red, followed by two white on the timing wheel. Do you recollect which ones you decided were which? Sorry I messed with your work, but I felt my multiple mechanical issues made the work you did off in terms of rpm. I think I figured out why the fans were set to come on at 200, and 210. Probably the prior tuner was aware of the issues the fans were causing, and only wanted them coming on when absolutely neccessary.

So, as I understand it, I need to do the following in this order;
- find TDC
-lock timing on the E6K
-adjust timing with a light to (?)
-add fuel starting at the rpm where I start to bounce. I noticed there is a "full throttle map, I am assuming I am supposed to be working in the main fuel map? On this part, should I add fuel to an entire range at a particular RPM like all the bars in vacume? and then simply move up one rpm range at a time, or just (X number of) bars working backwards from "0" bar? Also what would you say is my target afr at no load? I seem to be O'k above ~3000 rpm (Moves around between 11.8, and 12.4)
- Should I adjust the idle mechanically, or with the E6K? (this question exposes my basic mechanical ignorance )
- I believe you adjusted the timing to be safe above 15psi, yes?
- I have read that increasing the split after peak torque to as much as 15* may give a nie increase in power with no ill effects, do you agree?

As you guys can see, I have alot of questions, I tink I can do this if someone would be so kind as to allow me to call them when I get stuck, Steve, is that O'k, Ted? Thanks again, Carl Byck

Carl Byck

Also, Steve, Ted, do you think the hole would be enough to kill my spool?

pluto

I think based on what i could tell, the first mark is 0TDC, 2nd is -5TDC, then -10TDC, -15TDC and -20TDC. You can either lock your timing to 0TDC and set your timing mark to the first mark (furthest to the right). or set it to -5TDC and set the trailing to the (furthest to the left) mark (-20TDC). That should set your timing correctly. You can also verify it by connecting the pickup to leading to verfiy that the leading mark hits the -5TDC afterwards.

If you have any questions, feel free to call me at the shop (817) 788-8726 and i'll step you through the process.

Also, the map I created for you, add 10% of fuel (using global range) and highlight cell 1-12. That should fix your part throttle issue. Once you increase 10% for part throttle, you'll need to lean out the idle part (1000rpm) until the car idles smoothly.

RETed

I think you should consult pluto on this first before resorting to our help.

If you still need help, I think we'll all be more than happy to help.


-Ted