Mazda vs. Synthetic Oil
09-25-08, 04:56 PM
#1
Mazda vs. Synthetic Oil
Anyone read this statement from Mazda before?
http://www.mazdaspeedkb.com/activekb...Rotary+Engines
I've known of their non-endorsement of synthetic oil, but this is the first time I've seen anything detailed about why.
Dave
http://www.mazdaspeedkb.com/activekb...Rotary+Engines
I've known of their non-endorsement of synthetic oil, but this is the first time I've seen anything detailed about why.
Dave
10-01-08, 10:55 AM
#5
This is the first I've read about synthetics affecting emissions. Way back when, when synthetics first came out, Mazda tested them in their rotaries. Some performed well, others didn't. At that point, instead of recommending any particular synthetic or dissing another, Mazda simply said no to all of them. Now days synthetics are much better, even though some of them aren't 100% synthetic, Mazda still refuses to endorse any particular one. There is a guy that works for Royal Purple that races rotaries and of course uses RP in his race car. The following is what he has to say about using synthetics.
Rotary Engines
Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?
Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.
More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:
In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.
Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.
Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?
Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.
In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.
Here are some facts:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.
Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.
I heard that synthetic oil doesn't burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.
If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.
Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.
Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 – 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)
Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?
No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.
I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?
No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).
Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?
Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.
If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?
In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.
For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.
A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).
Everyone has read/heard/seen the different myths/rumors, etc.. Here is someone who speaks from the real world of competitive racing. Judge for yourself.
Rotary Engines
Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?
Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.
More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:
In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.
Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.
Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?
Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.
In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.
Here are some facts:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.
Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.
I heard that synthetic oil doesn't burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.
If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.
Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.
Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 – 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)
Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?
No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.
I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?
No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).
Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?
Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.
If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?
In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.
For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.
A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).
Everyone has read/heard/seen the different myths/rumors, etc.. Here is someone who speaks from the real world of competitive racing. Judge for yourself.
10-02-08, 04:51 PM
#7
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Ask ANY reputable motor builder about synthetics and the OMP......Sythethic doesn't burn.
Disconnect your OMP, run premix, then put in any sythetic. For best results, run an Ester based oil like Motul 300v or redline.
And I would NEVER EVER run royal purple......no amount of marketing makes a good oil.....money and development make good oils.
Disconnect your OMP, run premix, then put in any sythetic. For best results, run an Ester based oil like Motul 300v or redline.
And I would NEVER EVER run royal purple......no amount of marketing makes a good oil.....money and development make good oils.
Last edited by RE-catch-22; 10-02-08 at 04:53 PM.
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10-02-08, 06:02 PM
#8
Myth No 1 "Synthetics do not burn" At internal combustion temps, any oil will burn and the cleaner synthetics will leave much less ash (a good thing)
Myth No 2 “All synthetics are the same” There are different families of synthetics; while not getting into differences some are not compatible with different seal “rubbers”
Fact No 1 In the late 80’s when I spoke to Mazda Motorsport Development (now Mazdaspeed) (I am member no 20) about synthetics they said they use them on their race rotaries, but could not endorse which brands were ok or not, but I could ask if a particular brand was ok.
Fact No 2 When I asked if Mobil 1 was an ok brand or not they say it was one of the ok brands.
Fact No 3 MMD told me that the discussion on syn or not was mine and asked me “if I was more interested in engine life and lower temps or warranty; it was my choice”.
Myth No 2 “All synthetics are the same” There are different families of synthetics; while not getting into differences some are not compatible with different seal “rubbers”
Fact No 1 In the late 80’s when I spoke to Mazda Motorsport Development (now Mazdaspeed) (I am member no 20) about synthetics they said they use them on their race rotaries, but could not endorse which brands were ok or not, but I could ask if a particular brand was ok.
Fact No 2 When I asked if Mobil 1 was an ok brand or not they say it was one of the ok brands.
Fact No 3 MMD told me that the discussion on syn or not was mine and asked me “if I was more interested in engine life and lower temps or warranty; it was my choice”.
10-02-08, 07:49 PM
#9
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Here is some of the best information I've found and its from racing beat's technical section. http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda2.htm I had been wondering about synthetic oil as well. Since my engine is freshly rebuild, using synthetics would or could be harmful in the break in period, not allowing it to break in or worse. Since some people aren't recommending synthetic oil period, what kind of oil do you guys recommend? Just curious. I haven't made up my mind what kind I'm going to use yet. 
I noticed the link takes you to the main gen 2 section. Click on the technical tips license plate to the left, then click on the oil systems icon at the top. I find there whole technical section informative.
I noticed the link takes you to the main gen 2 section. Click on the technical tips license plate to the left, then click on the oil systems icon at the top. I find there whole technical section informative.
Last edited by therotorrooter; 10-02-08 at 07:52 PM. Reason: link isn't completely correct
10-03-08, 05:20 AM
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of course Mazda used synthetic.....they also pulled down the motor after every race which. They probably ran premix as well....why would they risk a mechanical component failing - not that the OMP fails.....not that I have heard of.
Synthetics are fine, and while they may indeed burn, albeit at a higher temp, if you have the OMP connected and you are not revving hard ALL of the time then a build up internally will occur...at about 3000 kms the inside of your motor will be black.
Synthetics are fine, and while they may indeed burn, albeit at a higher temp, if you have the OMP connected and you are not revving hard ALL of the time then a build up internally will occur...at about 3000 kms the inside of your motor will be black.
10-03-08, 05:28 AM
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of course Mazda used synthetic.....they also pulled down the motor after every race. They probably ran premix as well....why would they risk a mechanical component failing - not that the OMP fails.....not that I have heard of.
Synthetics are fine, and while they may indeed burn, albeit at a higher temp, if you have the OMP connected and you are not revving hard ALL of the time then a build up internally will occur...at about 3000 kms the inside of your motor will be black.
Synthetics are fine, and while they may indeed burn, albeit at a higher temp, if you have the OMP connected and you are not revving hard ALL of the time then a build up internally will occur...at about 3000 kms the inside of your motor will be black.
Last edited by RE-catch-22; 10-03-08 at 05:31 AM.
10-03-08, 09:08 AM
#12
I have also had 42 running years of rotary engine experience solely on Mobil 1 after the initial 2000 miles. Do you not think Mazda Motorsport knew I was still using the OMP when we talked.
This forum has a thousand posts about oil not much point on adding more; to each his own about oils, I just like the higher HP and lower operating temps that I see over old crushed dinosaur juice.
This forum has a thousand posts about oil not much point on adding more; to each his own about oils, I just like the higher HP and lower operating temps that I see over old crushed dinosaur juice.
10-03-08, 01:02 PM
#13
Ask ANY reputable motor builder about synthetics and the OMP......Sythethic doesn't burn.
Disconnect your OMP, run premix, then put in any sythetic. For best results, run an Ester based oil like Motul 300v or redline.
And I would NEVER EVER run royal purple......no amount of marketing makes a good oil.....money and development make good oils.
Disconnect your OMP, run premix, then put in any sythetic. For best results, run an Ester based oil like Motul 300v or redline.
And I would NEVER EVER run royal purple......no amount of marketing makes a good oil.....money and development make good oils.
Royal Purple isn't good because of marketing. It's good because it's good. This doesn't mean your engine will die if you don't use it but don't talk **** about something when you obviously don't know about. I suspect your opinion on oils still comes from marketing. Just from other oil companies.
Just an FYI, and I'm sure someone is going to cry bs because they still believe that rotaries and piston engine don't fundamentally work the same, but in my piston engine daily driver, I've been running RP for all but about 3000 miles of it's entire life. I recently changed the engine out at 183,000 miles due to wear induced by debris making it's way into the engine through a rip in my intake hose that I didn't see for a long time. Use a good air filter! When I changed the engine, the oil pan had NO sludge or buildup in it. None! It had a layer of fine varnish on the pan and half of it came off with just a simple hit with the hose. The rest came off with little fanfare from some cleaner and a toothbrush. The intake manifold however was covered in carbon inside. Remember there is no oil metering on this engine that could have caused it. Gasoline is an inherently dirty fuel. Most of your carbon buildup in your engine is NOT from oil injection. It's from fuel! How many rotaries running on other fuels do you ever see much carbon in? If you can't figure that out from the above statement then I'm not sure what to say. I've run RP in my rotaries for many years now. No problems whatsoever. Good marketing couldn't have made my results possible if it wasn't a good oil. It is. There are many good oils out there.
10-03-08, 01:04 PM
#14
FWIW: I have talked directly to Mazda's head of their rotary engine department and gotten his opinion directly. He was at Sevenstock 3 years ago. I posted the info then as to why they say what they say but don't do what they say. It has NOTHING to do with how often an engine is torn down. It has NOTHING to do with emissions. It has NOTHING to do with certain oils being "specially formulated for the rotary". It has EVERYTHING to do with lawyers and idiot people. I don't care if you don't believe me. You have the right to be WRONG!
10-03-08, 02:55 PM
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the question is
DOES ROTARY NEED SYNTHETIC?
NO, IT DOESN'T
it will run no matter what oil you put in.
as far as synthetic vs. mineral oil debate, it's all big companies marketing and politics.
everybody wants you to run synthetic? why? simple, cause it cost more...
DOES ROTARY NEED SYNTHETIC?
NO, IT DOESN'T
it will run no matter what oil you put in.
as far as synthetic vs. mineral oil debate, it's all big companies marketing and politics.
everybody wants you to run synthetic? why? simple, cause it cost more...
10-03-08, 07:11 PM
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I use synthetic oils......and always will. I just blank off the OMP and run premix.....
I look at what others are doing in the industry then read the MSDS fact sheet.....
...so you use RP....no wonder you were offended. BTW I don't use any of the brands mentioned.
good luck with....well.....all that
I look at what others are doing in the industry then read the MSDS fact sheet.....
...so you use RP....no wonder you were offended. BTW I don't use any of the brands mentioned.
good luck with....well.....all that
Last edited by RE-catch-22; 10-03-08 at 07:18 PM.
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