hwnd

iTrader: (4)

I'd like to know how you guys go about selecting the ECU's.

my goal here is really to understand the basic idea of what you guys think about and features that are important to you when selecting ECU's. In the back of my mind, I think 90% of what happens is more of a case of: "whats joe running? ...get one of those - he made power" which really bothers me.

So I'd like to start off..

While it may be widely known, I'm a huge supporter of the AEM for the FD.
My biggest reasons are the capabilities of the ECU itself & the support that comes with it.

First ecu came with a car I bought.. so AEM didn't see a dime from me at this point.
Had issues with the box and they actually took care of it. I mailed the ECU in to California (not Australia or Newfoundland but here in the states).

The options of blending maps and whatnot are really slick.


I've had other ecu's and still one still remains. I do have another ecu to bring up but its too stupidly complex to talk about here (you should see the turbo-profile help guide).

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

With regards to selection of a standalone, programmable ECU/EMS, one of the main decision factors for me was 'professional' tuning availability. What good is an standalone ECU if you can't have it tuned by someone who knows what they are doing? I don't have enough time to learn to be a 'tuner' and mistakes can cost me a motor $$$$$. I prefer to get a good tune from a knowledgeable tuner and then make minor changes if needed.

If I didn't have a ported motor, I'd probably run a chipped ECU or piggyback. Those are generally tuned for a given set of mods and, if they use the stock maps/ECU, generally offer better part throttle controls and emissions compatibility (check engine light and so forth).

Cost was also a factor.

hwnd

iTrader: (4)

So you're saying you made a selection based on what the professional recommended?
That's a valid reason.

Did wiring/engine loom become a factor at any point?

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

It was actually both a community recommendation (from here where I learned about this stuff) as well as the opinion of the local RX7 specialist who recommended the PFC as well b/c it is easy to install and setup and tune.


Hell yes.

So "Ease of Install" is also a criteria and can affect "Cost"

For example, while a Haltech or Motec etc are technically superior than a Power FC in some ways, the PFC just plugs into the stock wiring harness. Plug and play is beautiful. W/o plug and play the cost would be also be beyond my "bang for the buck" aka "cost" criteria and the complexity or doing my own wiring harness would be beyond my abilities, desire and time availability. The cost/benefit isn't there.



The way I see it, there are 2 demographics for the DIY weekend/home modder:

1. The guy who wants something affordable, easy to setup and easy to use. Doesn't require a huge learning curve and support can be obtained free/inexpensively.

2. The guy who probably has more technical know how and has more time and a bigger budget to wire, setup and tune a technically better product [that basically accomplishes the same thing].

grimple1

iTrader: (1)

the PFC is also kinda the standard for rotary tuning and reputable rotary tuners should know that platform cold ... with the other stand alones you're gonna be limited to finding a rotary tuner AND someone familiar with your platform. for better or for worse that's just the way it is.



the pfc plugging into the factory harness is good and bad. Good b/c it's easy setup. Bad b/c most rotary harnesses are brittle, melted and/or spliced. I wouldn't make the choice for the PFC due to the harness b/c one day you'll replace the factory harness anyways.

One should make it on ease of getting a tuner. Look around in your area and see what REPUTABLE rotary shops are using then go with that.

hwnd

iTrader: (4)

I strongly disagree with that statement.

Just because a "tuner" knows MegaSquirt doesn't mean the MegaSquirt is *the* best option for a car/engine configuration. In other words, if a potential buyer of an ECU doesn't know much about possible ecu options/configurations and doesn't care - he should be schooled a bit on low-end vs. high-end ecu's.

This forum really needs a checklist or something that aids in explaining why some ECU's stand above the rest. And for what it's worth, I would *never* buy an ECU based on what a tuner might know. You guys typically put some magical/mythical belief behind calibrating a car, making a "tuner" god-like. Thats just nonsense.

Another point I'd like to address:
Just because so and so made 60 gigawatt HP on a dyno at 2 metric tons of boost doesn't mean the ECU is/isn't worth a flip. So just because Marquez in PR ran a .3sec 1/4 on a JiggleBoo ECU doesn't mean that is THE ecu and nor should you rush out and buy one. It also does *not* prove the ECU to be great for street driven engines.

I would like to be proven wrong.

fd_neal

iTrader: (4)

Im not an expert here, but Ive ran a PFC and recently made the switch to a haltech sport 2000. I did this for a few reasons, the Haltech gives many more options on injector setups, ignition setups, boost control, safety features (ie boost cut and spark cut), direct integration with my wide band/EGT/extra sensors, all new wireing harness, better matrix resolution. The list could go on...
It was clear for me the haltech is a better choice, motec would likely have been even better but my pockets are only so deep.

I think that any of the "modern" ECU's will do the job well if properly setup. Isnt it all about what fits someones needs? Budget, car setup & use, available tuners, etc.

hwnd

iTrader: (4)

I think that's right on.. As long as you've done some homework and found a better suited ECU for the needs - job well done.

Evil Aviator

The ideas behind recommending an EMS based on available tuners include:
- The whole point in discussing the EMS with a professional tuner is to decide what will best fit your performance goals and budget. It is pretty tough for a professional tuner to speculate on an unknown EMS. It is even tougher for a layman to speculate on an unknown EMS.
- A well-tuned EMS with few features is better than a poorly-tuned EMS with many features. A professional tuner will most likely be able to achieve a better tune with a fimiliar EMS, and it will take him less time and therefore less money to tune it.
- If you need to ask, then you know less than a professional tuner. Over the years I have seen several forum threads of people thinking that they have found the next great EMS despite the fact that nobody has ever used it on a rotary engine... not good.
- Professional tuners often offer package deals in which they sell the EMS and tuning for less than you would pay for them separately.
- When something goes wrong, your local tuner can help if he knows the EMS. It is not such a great idea to rely on phone calls to Australia.

I am not saying that it is bad to research on your own, but if after a day or two of internet searching you feel that you know more than your tuner, then you may want to find another tuner.

That would be incredibly convoluted and subjective.

Hehehe, I have also noticed that everybody wants to be a "tuner" so they can be cool. I think maybe the problem you have with tuners is that you don't know any REAL professional tuners. They are certainly not God-like, but they sure do help.

Nobody will prove you wrong on the basic issue above, but the street drag racers will argue the definition of "great". To them, a "great" EMS may simply be any cheap EMS that is used by their PR drag racing idol. Never underestimate the retarded mentality of drag racers. Remember, these are the guys who swear up and down that carbs make more power than EFI and that Roots blowers make more power than turbochargers. This is part of the reason why I think your forum ECU checklist idea will not work.

hwnd

iTrader: (4)

I don't have enough energy to argue my gripes any further.

My whole point was trying to give enough information to the dummies who simply didn't know enough and wanted to learn a little bit from a non-dealer (read: profit) perspective about the ECU's and whatnot. Doesn't matter to me if you pick an outdated ECU or one that lacks the ability of a knock sensor. Just wanted to point out pro's and con's without having company/brand interest.

blwfly

iTrader: (4)

im in this situation to trying to decided what ems i should go for.
I live in hickvill and rotary tuners are far away. So im left with doing it myself. i have searched and red several books on the subject. I recently installed a s4t2 into my repu and wired in the stock ems rewired everything.
so i find that wireing in a aftermarket ems will be a breeze.
I also have talked to quite alot of people about megasquirt and it seems to be a very good system has lots of feature's with lots of support and constantly upgrading harware thats open source so the diy guy can upgrade his system. the main reason really is the price.
altho im still open to other ems at the right price.

cheers
chris

Evil Aviator

Go ahead and do it then. Bitching about it will not make it happen.

It would take you only about 2 hours to drive to Pineapple Racing. Many people need to transport their car to a different state for fine tuning, so consider yourself very lucky.
http://www.pineappleracing.com/

Also, tuners sometimes travel to other regions for tuning sessions, so keep an eye out in your regional forum. Example:
https://www.rx7club.com/nw-rx-7-forum-33/steve-kan-july-tuning-day-761307/

Yes, the wiring is the easiest part, especially in your case since you have some experience and you researched the subject first.

See hwnd, MegaSquirt is *the* best option for a car/engine configuration after all, and the price is the best feature of an EMS!

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

I thought the ms was only a 12x12 tuning matrix? Also, would it really be that awesome on an fd with the sequential system? I am not asking due to interest in purchasing, more just a curiosity.

Evil Aviator

The MS-I VE table is only 8x8. To quote from their website, "... this allows for plenty of control of the engine without having to fill in a bunch of grid points with redundant values. A 16x16-point table (or higher) used by some other units is not a feature, but a pain, especially during tuning, because all 256 slots need to be entered".
http://www.megamanual.com/index.html

Despite the 8x8 table being "plenty of control of the engine without having to fill in a bunch of grid points with redundant values", the MS-II increased the table to 12x12, apparently in order to waste the time of tuners by making them "fill in a bunch of grid points with redundant values" since we all know that they were not full of **** when then touted their 8x8 table.

Anyway, I am sure that hwnd will explain in his guide that any matrix over 8x8 is a waste of time since I was obviously wrong in stating that such a guide would be incredibly convoluted and subjective.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

That would be great comedy if it weren't so true.

hwnd

iTrader: (4)

The ecu I have in the FD now isn't even that big and it's still much involved.

hwnd

iTrader: (4)

Where are you getting this information from? I never said I was creating a guide.

Man you really are a jerk.

Rx7_Nut13B

iTrader: (1)

I agree with the guy about pick the ECU by what type of tuners you trust in the area, if you have a really good Rotary PowerFc guy in the area, go with a powerFc, if you have a good rotary tuner that likes AEM, or Haltech, go with it.

Point blank, every standalone ECU will do the key points the same, some may have there own software that will do it, and some need MS Excel.

Some have Rev limiters that cut fuel some cut ignition, some have a Two-step, some other features that could come in handy, but it come down to if you are not going to tune it yourself, you will need a tuner.

Guide to finding a tuner

1)Does this tuner work with Rotary's, Customer names ect so you can ask them.
2)Does this tuner talk to you about what the car is going to be used for, or is he just like make all the power in the world.
3)Does he truly know the limitations of a rotary, Knocking is death, unlike in Pistons.
4)What is your gut feeling about this person?
5)This is my personnel one, if there isnt a rotary in his shop when i stop by, I am gone because he isnt a real rotary guy.

Evil Aviator

V
V
V
So I take it that you want me to create the checklist? OK, let me see...

- *never* buy an ECU based on what a tuner might know
- Price is the most important feature of an EMS
- Anything larger than an 8x8 matrix is a waste of time
- The best EMS for a street car is one that is used by the top Peurto Rican drag racers.

Did I miss anything?

Yes, I get that a lot, especially when I am right. I think it has something to do with my honesty and dry sense of humor... or maybe I'm just really a jerk. Let's see... Nice Aviator... no, that's not it... Pushover Aviator... nope, not that either... Evil Aviator... yeah, that's it!

hwnd

iTrader: (4)

I *never* said I wanted to or you should create a checklist - merely stated that one is needed. Again I never said I was taking the responsibilities of producing any such list. I think you greatly misunderstood. On that same token, you assumed I wanted YOU to create such a list? on what grounds? I hardly know you or your background (but I've seen you type out your resume / qualifications many times) so I couldn't in good manner ask you to create any type of list that points out key / unique features.

So again, let me make it very clear - I never have expected you or anyone, single handedly, to create a list. I only said I think one is needed.

I called you a jerk because you're thread crashing and taking out some rude demeanor towards me and I don't appreciate it. In fact my honest goal with an ideal thread was to show a non-tuner what I've managed to learn and some of the features/options that I now demand (which isn't really a lot).

I'm probably using one of the most complex / sophisticated ECU's on this forum (something along the lines of the Motec M800). Having gone from piles of junk like the PFC to other ECU's which are head & shoulders above most - I think I could offer some insight to the troubles I had and I'm sure many others like yourself could to.

One huge example of that was I wanted to keep the OMP. One friend said he didn't want to play "Mr. Wizard" at the gas pump with pre-mix. So I sat out to learn which ECU's could control a stepper motor based a number of inputs - I found that a good deal of middle road to higher end ecus could do the task but nothing semi reasonable. This is where I picked up a Wolf3D, AEM, etc.. I really enjoyed playing with such a wide range of computers and software packages that I began to understand what I wanted.

Doesn't matter to me if I tuned the car or someone like Neel @ ApexSpeed but I wanted to be comfortable with the computer in the car. What I mean by that is if I wanted to add traction control - I could spend $1k on the race-logic piggyback box OR if I had an AEM.. hell I could wire up the wheel sensors to the box directly.. but who knew?

...well thanks for ruining the thread... I hope you enjoy being the resident smart-***.
maybe next time instead of being a jerk and trying to call me out on stupid things and pointless one-liner stabs ... maybe contribute something helpful?