BlueTII

I will have to take your word on that Kevin, considering I am not going to build an engine with trashed rotors to disproove you.

I will say this though, rotors in that condition are nowhere near balanced, considering the amount of material that is displaced when the apex seal chunks "snowplow" into the rotor face, then the fact that any high spots need to be filed down. Additionally the chance of failure is increase drastically since the rotor face integrity has been compromised. The S5/FD rotor face material is not nearly as thick as the S4 rotors. Another thing to take into consideration is carbon, it will build up in the grooves and eventually fall out in a big chunk taking out the engine with it.

I am not going to get into a big debate on this subject. I just to not see an upside to using a rotor with apex seal damage in any engine rebuild, regardless of cost/time/supply. Since the customer is paying for a rebuild they certainly expect higher quality then gouged rotors.

paintballpfl

I agree Atkins has a very good reputation, but even the best make mistakes. The fact that he didn't purchase the engine makes no difference, why would anyone put a rotor like that into a rebuild? Especially one with Atkins name on it. I don't believe a person keeps receipts from performance rebuilds from another car around to scam a buyer that may come 2 years down the road. Would you? I like Atkins, I would still even buy an engine from them. But I believe if you take money from someone for work, it should be done right.

Latin270

Kevin is right! That rotor may not be pretty but the bottom line is it's within spec and will work just fine. I cant beleive that the gouging on that rotor is going to cause an unbalanced motor.

Rx-7Doctor

iTrader: (13)

Apparently you did not read the rules of posting in this section. The fact that he did not purchase anything from Atkins makes all the difference in the world.

Jason

iTrader: (5)

So just because he didnt purchase the motor directly from Atkins means he cant question why that rotor was used?

13b4me

What if the person was on a budget (because he's selling the car and won't have to deal with it), so he requests the old (and possibly damaged) rotors be reused?

rogrx7

iTrader: (11)

+1721727832

FTW

Thank you

Rx-7Doctor

iTrader: (13)

Did you even read this thread?

It's got nothing to do with questioning the usage of whatever was used in the motor.
It has to do with the fact he did not purchase anything from Atkins, therfore he was not entitled to start a thread in this section about a bad experience with Atkins.

dubulup

you are 100% correct. case closed.

Jason

iTrader: (5)

Actually you're right. This thread belongs in the third Gen section since he didnt purchase the motor.

BlueTII

No, not even in this situation. A used FD rotor is only ~$200 in good useable condition. Why would any engine builder risk their reputation by installing garbage even per customer request? BTW old rotors are reused all the time, just not "(possibly damaged)" ones.


Latin270
Like I said I am not going to get into a huge debate over this, but if you think these rotors are useable I have probably 15 FD and another 15 S4 TII available for sale then. Considering there is "nothing wrong" with them I will let them go for $100 ea + shipping. Sure wish I had kept the truckload of them I took to the scrapyard a few weeks ago.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

From what I gather from the beginning of the thread, here's my take on this. First off don't judge that something must have been amiss because the engine was rebuilt and then only driven for a while before being parked for a long time. I've had my GSL-SE for 5 years now. I've got a little over 3000 miles on it since I bought it. I rebuilt the engine a little over 1000 miles ago. That was 3 years ago. The engine and car are fine. Nothing amiss. I'm not hiding anything. Don't assume that someone wouldn't spend money only to not drive it much. I'm in real estate. I see people drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on a vacation home only to never stay in it and sell it at a loss within the first couple of years. It happens.

If the guy he bought the car from said the engine was rebuilt by Atkins and had proof of it in the form of the receipt, that's pretty good proof that it was. How many engines did he have built and installed at the same time? It doesn't really matter if the warrantly is transferable or not. He may not be entitiled to it being fixed for him but he could at least expect an answer to his questions about the engine's condition. If I were in his position and had that happen, I'd call them too to get an explanation. I wouldn't expect them to fix it since I didn't buy it from them but I would like to know what standards are used when building engines and then ask them why they'd build an engine like this. Obviously you'd only have their word to go on as to if they say they did or not but there is still nothing wrong with trying to get answers. The new owner was within his right to do so.

I am absolutely appalled that anyone would claim that you should use a rotor like that. I don't care if you can mill it out to 3mm seals and get rid of any damage around the seal areas. You can't just judge a rotor's condition under the assumption that it's fine around the seal areas. Those dents could have caused hairline fractures in the rotor. You can't see those. They could be severely weakened as a result and boost could reveal any weaknesses earlier. Anyone who rebuilds an engine with a rotor in this condition should step away from a rotary and never touch one again. I'd certainly never buy an engine from someone who thinks that's usable and neither should anyone else. Justifying crap like that by selling it as a budget rebuild is also no excuse. As a business you do it properly or not at all.

Keep in mind I'm not judging Atkins on this. All we have is word against word and I don't care enough to dig any deeper. I am just making general statements based on the facts given and the opinions of others.

iceman4357

iTrader: (2)

I really dont know much about the engines at all. Im not going to pretend like i do. I can understand that a rotor that is worn like that SHOULD be replaced, but what if the person paying for the rebuilt didnt have the cash to buy a new one? And the rotor didnt leak? Maybe the person just wanted the engine to run so he/she could sell the car?

SpooledupRacing

plain and simple I am not going to blame anyone BUT I look at it this way IF atkins put that rotor into a rebuild they performed REGARDLESS of what the customer said IMO I think it is good business sence and only holds crediability and respect to say NO I cannot and will not install that rotor

it is the name of the business and weather it is looked at by the purchaser of another guy shortly down the road IF u built that engine u want yoru credibility to be there REGARDLESS... I think that IMO would make me turn my head and never go to atkins for a rebuild KNOWING that they did that.

Rx-7Doctor

iTrader: (13)

Thank you. That's all I am trying to point out.

In the 3rd gen specific section the discussion of the usage of a questionable engine rotor would be acceptable material.

Latin270

I never said I would pesonally reuse a rotor like that, but the bottom line is it can be done. But who cares the point to this whole thing is that there isnt anything solid to say its an Atkins motor and that it wasnt already damaged. I know of a few guys that claimed to have motors built by some famed builders from PR and Florida as well as a guy who claims he just picked up a motor in NJ from Judge Ito, as I checked the motor I saw it wasnt stamped. SO my point is people make claims all the time about mtors being "just rebuilt". Its up to the buyer to make sure what they are getting.

Kory_yahi

So. How do dents on the face of a rotor housing effect how the motor operates? I understand if there are giant gashes and scrapes at the apex... So far all I have heard it is JUNK, but why is it junk? How does it make it junk? I mean the motor ran for 1,000 miles until it was a coolant seal problem... what if nothing was wrong witht he coolant seal and the motor lasted 100,000 miles? What would you say about the rotor then?

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Building an engine the cheap way usually costs more in the longrun. Spending more up front is almost always cheaper in the longrun. It's really quite simple. Why is there never enough time and money to do it right the first time but always enough to do it again? That's a very prdominant trend with RX-7 owners unfortunately and it's precipitated by people claiming that doing it the cheap way is perfectly fine. It may work right now but longevity it will not have. That's where the longterm costs come into play.

If someone is just trying to be cheap to get an engine running just so he can sell it then he should be addressed on the issue as that's a dishonest way to fix a car knowing that someone else may rely on it. People do it but that doesn't make it right.

Again, even if it is dented and still seals now that there have been new grooves machined for the apex seals, it doesn't mean that the rotor wasn't damaged beyond what you can see physically. It could have a hairline crack in it or be weakened as a result. You just don't know. If you don't use crap like that you'll never have to worry about it.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

I'd say you took a gamble and just happened to win this time. What if there was a hairline crack in it and it broke under boost at 2000 miles? Would you still use the argument that at least it ran up until that point so it must have been fine until then? There are people that tune cars and hit detonation and have their cars still run just fine afterwards. The bad thing is that you could have gotten a stress fracture in an apex seal. Even though it may seal well, it could have been weakened. This could show up as a break one day at full boost or just cruising casually down the street. It may be an issue 500 miles from now or 10,000 from now. You never know. Damage doesn't have to be immediately visible with the naked eye to still be there and cause problems later. If you play it safe and don't use parts that look bad, you reduce your risks. Anytime you use used parts, you take a chance that something may not be right with them. The whole goal is to reduce your risks by using parts that appear to be good. There's never a guarantee but using a part that has noticable damage on it is taking a much higher risk. If a shop or engine builder tells you to use a rotor like that because it still seals fine, thank them for their opinion and then take your business to someone else.

BANNOR

Why would any professional use a questionable part or at least one that might be questioned by other professionals. Knowing good and well that if the thing is torn apart that their name might be associated with it, and very well could affect their reputation. Regardless of what conversations took place between the original owner and the company doing the engine work. .

SLOASFK

iTrader: (5)

not attacking you, but what you said here just preaches your and the other owners ignorance of rotaries in general.

banzaitoyota

Might want to call some of those "PRO's" yourself

I heard lots of excuses over the [ast few years after shelling out my hard earned $$$$$$

iceman4357

iTrader: (2)

i agree with you completely, but if someone was telling me to "get it running as cheap as possible". I wish we knew what really went down, but we never will. If the owner of the car said "fix it cheap" or if the rebuilder didnt tell the customer about the rotor, or what the deal is. Im not going to fire away on atkins because someone said a car they purchased from some else has a bad engine, when we really cant prove a situation.

BlueTII

I highly doubt that someone spending $5000 on a 3mm ceramic seal engine would tell a builder to skimp on a rotor.

Jason

iTrader: (5)

From my understanding the company purchased the engine from Atkins for the customer (first owner). I dont think this customer knew where it was coming from. They sent it to us because they couldnt get it running after dropping the motor in. It then sat at there shop for a year because the customer couldnt pay the bill.
I think you could argue forever if the rotor is acceptable when rebuilding. Fact is some shops would use it and others wouldnt.

Jason