quickseven

iTrader: (3)

Okay well heres my story...I bought my fd in august of last year. The man I bought it off of owned a car repair company. He told me that he bought the car with a blown engine and he had sent the engine out to atkins for it to be remanufactured. He showed me the reciepts and everything...had been street ported, 3mm ceramic apex seals etc. Total cost of the rebuild showed $5000. The work was done in may of 2004 and the car sat for about 2 years after that. It had a thousand miles on it since the rebuild. He said it was babied and he knew all about the break in process. I noticed that when the car got hot it did not want to start. He said that it had always done that...I didn't have any idea back then of what that could possibly be and thought it would probably be an easy fix. I ended up buying the car and shortly after took it to the rx7 store in columbus for them to work on. Well bad news was that it was a bad coolant seal. So once they tore apart the engine they called to tell me that I had a bad rotor....I thought to myself a bad rotor? The engine only has a thousand miles on it since the rebuild? Well they said the apex seals were perfectly fine and the rotor was scratched and nicked up all over pretty bad. They told me that nothing in the engine had done this....it had to be put in that way....why would atkins put in a bad rotor? So of course had to buy a new rotor and have it milled for the apex seals. I'm not saying the bad coolant seal was atkins fault because I don't know the exact history but after this I don't doubt it....I called and talked to dan at atkins and he was rather rude, telling me well I can't do anything without pictures...So I took his email down and emailed him pictures of the rotor and reciept from atkins from the rebuild......No response from them what so ever. Sent a second email....nothing...moral of the story is i'm bitter and just wanted to let everyone know. Pics will be posted....

quickseven

iTrader: (3)

Heres the link to my pictures.... http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q...x7/Rx7%20Club/

rajahFD

You just opened up a can of worms..

SLONSHO

oh boy this one is gonna be good one !!!


ps this is hard to believe !!!!!

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

Well, let's see.

1) if this was a 3mm engine, then I'd say it's completely normal to find a rotor with previous seal damage. It's VERY common for builders to take a rotor that was damaged when 2mm seals broke, and mill it to accept 3mm seals so that the slot is clean and straight again. The dents in the face are purely cosmetic. As long as all the seals fit their respective grooves and holes and move freely without binding or excess play, then the rotor is good.

I do not know why rx7store would say that is a "bad rotor". Sure, it's not desireable, who wouldn't want to open up their engine and see all new shiny parts? But there's also nothing wrong with it. I would not tell my customer that it was a "bad rotor". Who wants to mill a perfectly straight and smooth 2mm stock rotor, when you could take a damaged rotor that could otherwise not be used at all, and make it perfectly reuseable by milling it?

I can assure you that the dents in that rotor have nothing to do with your starting issues. Ceramic seals are said to create less compression than standard seals, perhaps due to the low surface friction with the housing. Perhaps the engine was never fully broken in? Rotaries can have weak compression until the seals run in. Ceramic seals take a LONG time to break in from what I am told.

Perhaps you had another contributing factor, such as poor spray pattern or leaky injectors? Water thermosensor or wiring harness throwing incorrect values, changing fuel injection during cranking? Weak starter or battery making for slow cranking? Fouled plugs or ignition issue causing weak spark? Lots of things can cause hard hot starting on these. Did you even check compression?

2) Why would you expect Atkins to react favorably to your demands? How would it benefit them? I mean, you're not the purchaser of the engine. You don't own the warranty. You are not their customer. It's industry standard that engine warranties do not transfer with exchange of ownership. Not only for rotaries but for all engines.

Perhaps we dont have all the information at this time, but I don't see the problem as of yet.

BlueTII

That rotor is trashed. It would go directly into our scrap pile. It doesn't matter if it is being machined to 3mm. We use rotors that have tip damage for 3mm machining, considering the portion that is out of spec will be removed, but nothing like this.

Kevin, put your friendship with Atkins aside for a second, you can not tell me that you would actually use a rotor in that condition in one of your rebuilds?

quickseven

iTrader: (3)

Everyone I talked to has said that that rotor is trashed....Its beat up on all 3 faces...big gashes not little stuff...and I didn't say that the rotor was making the starting problem...it was the bad coolant seal. Rx7store got everything worked out and now the starting problem is gone...and yes i'm not the one who actually had the work done but I bought the car and had to get pretty much a total rebuild to fix it.

SpooledupRacing

ok I am in no way a rotary engine guy especially internals yet HOWEVER from what I have read I would say that rotor is bad, and any reputable rebuilder would never want to put that rotor in that condition into any of their rebuilds.

On another note I think it was bad business or bad relations for u as the new owner to call atkins about this the warranty would not trade hands, and he owes no explanation to u on a rebuild he did for someone else.

On another hand I would like to hear the explanation on why that rotor was put into a fresh rebuild and I am sure others would to because again when u own a shop and u sell an item or do rebuilds inside and out you want that engine to look nice or atleast something where if they pull it apart u would be confident and happy saying

"I built that engine"

now another things is IF the rotor had nothing to do with the problem then again this should have never been brought up and u should have never contacted atkins...

DamonB

How does the present car owner in fact know he has an Atkins motor? Sure the seller showed him a receipt, but does that prove the motor installed in the car is in fact from Atkins?

SpooledupRacing

sorry but now u are reaching... plain and simple if it is what it is it is

Dave

DamonB

I'm not reaching or making excuses, I'm trying to understand the proof of this motor's origins. The only proof is the word of the seller. The same seller who spent $5K on a motor rebuild and then immediately parked the car for 2 years?

Before reaming anyone a new ******* I'd make certain I was 100% right. I don't rule out the fact that it's an Atkins motor, but my personal opinion at this moment is that the OP is going off half cocked. Unless I'm overlooking something, with that motor sitting on the floor how do we KNOW where it came from?

I've got piles of receipts for equipment that is not on my car.

SpooledupRacing

I think this whole thread is off crocked but it is no ones place but the current owner to supply us with the facts as he knows it.. its like a trial only 1 person knows the answer but us as buyers, seller, snd customers need to thing objectivly here and try and get to the bottom of it of close this thread!

Rx-7Doctor

iTrader: (13)

This thread does not even belong in here. The thread starter quickseven is not the person that purchased the engine.

The original owner of the car apparently had some problems with the car. More than likely a running issue or maybe a radiator or oil cooler problem that caused the engine to lose a coolant seal. Therfore the engine would have to be tore down anyways.

The fact that the guy only had 1000k miles on it and parked it for 2 years should be a clue that something is amiss here guys. If he in fact had a rebuild from Atkins why did he not go back to them and see about getting the engine fixed. Why? Maybe he never had a rebuild? Maybe he abused it? Maybe he didn't following the criteria of what parts needed to be serviced or replaced in order to validate a warranty?

The fact is that quickseven is not the original purchaser of the supposedly Atkins rebuild engine. Therfore all of this is based on 2nd hand info that is over 2 years old.
I recommend that anyone thinking about posting in this thread that would lean towards questioning the integrity of Atkins Rotary proceed with extreme caution.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately, Atkin motors failing in 3rd gens is not a rare occurrence. I know someone who just went through this mess about 2 years ago locally. I know of about another 5 people locally who also had similar issues (that's not a good ratio considering there aren't a lot of FD in Missouri on the Kansas City side of the state). You can look up KrisRX71993 here on the forum. The motor he got from Atkins wouldn't even propel the car.

I do agree that since the poster in this thread did not buy the motor him/herself from Atkins, that Atkins does not owe him a dime. However, that shouldn't matter if he wants to post information about the build. The problem is that he has no idea what has happened to the motor from the time it was built and to the time he bought the car.

Now I have ordered parts from Atkin and will mostly likely do so again if they have what I need. However I would never use my own money to purchase a motor from them.

Rx-7Doctor

iTrader: (13)

According to the rules of posting in this section which state. "One must have the facts".

Not heresay, not 2nd hand knowledge.
In order for quickseven to have the facts, he must be the original purchaser involved in this transaction.
Also states which item bought in the rules.
He did not purchase this Supposedly Rebuilt engine from Atkins.
Based on these two criteria this post is not valid period!

Mahjik, If what you are saying is correct then those people would have the right to start a thread. But it would have to be based on the forum citeria rules.
And only for their individual experiences based on the facts with proof of such.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

He's going by what the RX7Store is/has told him, so from his point of view, those are facts.

What proof would Atkins have that its NOT their motor? Its not like there is an Atkins stamp on every part they used. That's ridiculous and this has been hashed on the other threads.

People post here all time about used parts. I don't see why this is any different. People just need to be aware that there was a period of time at which the condition of the car and engine is unknown.

quickseven

iTrader: (3)

The reason the car sat for 2 years is because after this shop had done all this work to the car the original owner disappeared and was never heard from again....so this left the shop owner with outstanding bills and he filed a lean and eventually after a long process got the title of the car switched to his name. The engine was purchased from atkins and the rx7store put the engine in the car and got it running....this was before I bought the car....I have another receipt for that if you guys want it. The guy claims the car was broken in properly and never overheated etc etc...yes you can't believe what people feed you because obviously something happend to that coolant seal unless it was bad in the first place just like that rotor...Not blaming atkins on that cause theres too many unknown factors. I never said atkins owed me money...but personally I do believe an explanation would be nice. Just curious how a freshly rebuilt motor could be damaged like this.

Montego

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately the thread starter/new owner does not have a leg to stand on this. Lack of history and credibility of the source is in question here.


things that we do not know:

1. Is it really an atkins motor
2. The prior dealings with the last owner and atkins. Maybe he authorized the use of that rotor? It's one thing to actually see the damage first hand its another to hear it over the phone.

Now I'm not taking atkins side. I'm just saying that there are plausible scenarios out there.

Indyparts

iTrader: (16)

There seem to be alot of variables here.

#1 - The engine was broken in. By who? If the guy disapeared after all the work was done.. did the shop drive it around for that amout of time to 'break-in' the motor. Hell, it would have been better for them to drop the motor in and never start it up so that there is not carbon the motor to lock it up.

#2 - It sat for two years and then just fired right up. Where the hell can I buy a rotary like that? Even with rebuilds, I have seen engines that if they sit for more than a month are hard to get started.

#3 - You are going off of hear say from another shop that sold the car. I bet they didn't offer to give you a warranty on it, did they?

quickseven

iTrader: (3)

The engine was broken in by yes the shop owner....who had it at the rx7 store for the inital tuning and dealt with them through the process...I don't know if the car sat for 2 years with no one starting it up every once in a while but yes it sure did start up fine after it sat. No of course the guy didn't give me a warranty...He didn't sell it to me through the company it was never in the company as far as on the lot for sale...

DamonB

Mahjik, you're suggesting that since you have personal knowledge of issues with Atkins motors that this case is automatically the same. I'm disappointed.

That is not fair at all, no matter who the vendor is.

Seeing that the motor was supposedly rebuilt, the car then parked for a couple years and sold as having a "good" motor anyone should put 2 and 2 together and get a giant red flag. rx7doctor's first post is right on.

The issue isn't whether or not anyone feels Atkins builds good motors, the issue is whether the facts in this case support the OP's point of view. I insist that they do not. It doesn't take any leaps to determine that there are some shenanigans going on with the seller.

The car was knowingly purchased with a bad motor and now you're surprised there was in fact something wrong inside the motor? I get pissed when things go wrong and cost me money but often I have to accept that fault is at least partially my own. The motor was already bad. What was the best outcome that could have come from that after you decided to buy the car anyway?

Unfortunately you lost the gamble in this case.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

My point is that I can order a Atkins motor right now (or any vendor for that matter). The motor can be crap. I open it up and show pics on the forum of crappy parts inside. No vendor is going to claim that's the motor they shipped, whether they honestly really did or not. It would be stupid for the vendor to do so as it would be basically vendor suicide. Unfortunately, the vendors have the upper hand in these cases and it sucks.

I'm not suggesting its the same case here, but I've witness enough fresh Atkin motor failures to not be surprised if it is.

quickseven

iTrader: (3)

What are you talking about? The motor was just rebuilt....how is that considered a bad motor?

DamonB

How can the vendor know for certain something is his by looking at pics? Especially from years ago? If anyone called me second hand and tried to confront me with pics that their 3 year old second hand info insists are my doing I'd tell them to take a hike as well.

Somebody could go in my garage right now, take any number of (or the engine!)parts off my car and offer them for sale on ebay and I'd have no idea if the parts were mine or not by looking at pics.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Damon, they aren't going to do it even if its been 2 days. You know better than that. No builder who wants to keep his business is going to own up to shipping an engine with crappy parts.

Unfortunately, there's no real way for the customer to prove it either. Customer says "Here's what I got"; vendor says "That's not our engine"; end of story. It goes nowhere. Since the engines aren't stamped and/or tracked, the customer is always going to get the short end of the stick in these situations.