diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

Hi All,

I'm actually starting this thread because I finally got off my *** two days ago and started trying to start welding. So I have specific questions regarding that. However, I figured I would also probably just lump whatever other questions I have with other things in it as well - hence the nondescript title.

First things first. I got an arc welder maybe 3 months ago and to be honest it sat in a corner intimidating the hell out of me for all that time. A couple days ago I decided to quit being a pu**y, sac up and start using it. I did spend some time during the time that it sat and I watched some videos and read a few things here and there, so when I tried it I wasn't 100% clueless to concepts - just 100% inexperienced.

Anyway, my first project is a header (I know - why couldn't I start with an L-bracket or something?) and so far it hasn't been pretty ... in ANY regard. At any rate, the ugliness of the welds are not as disheartening to me as the fact that NONE of them seem to be filling in the joint between the flange and tubing. They kind of just sit at the surface of the joint. They are holding the primary tubes in place, but when i realize that one of them was misaligned and I got the sinking feeling that I would have to cut and grind in order to get it off and set it right, I was actually able to just use some muscle and twist it free.

SO ... it got me thinking ... all the arc welding videos I've seen worked with flat pieces of metal and now I'm wondering if my arc welder is the right tool for making a header. So my first question is can I use it to build my header?

I recently watched an Aaron Cake video and he was using a flux welder and from what I've been learning about them, maybe that may be more appropriate for the header project??? Anyway, I'm here right now for advice, guidance, what-have-you.

Thanks.

Kman Art

iTrader: (1)

TIG seems to be the best for clean header welds. That being said, it isn't a requirement.

Depending on the thickness of your material, you might need to grind the pipes on an angle to create a V between the two pieces to ensure penetration. Make sure you are using enough heat as well.

You are braver than I am! My first welding project was my drag car's downpipe and dump tube.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

fixed.


TIG? well, i'm in no position to argue - especially since i'm here seeking help - but it would seem to me that RB (or whoever actually makes their headers) used some other kind.

by the way, i'm using the RB mild steel flange and some kind of low-grade stainless tubing (i'll have to go find my receipt to get any more specific than that). i was using 1/16" E7014 rods. I forgot to mention that in the original post.

anyway, I simply can't afford a TIG machine anytime soon. i really can't afford getting a Flux wire machine either, but i'm much closer to making that happen on a whim than a TIG.

I don't mind putting the header on hold if my equipment is wrong. I can always "create" another project - maybe that fancy L-bracket. I just don't want to lose the surge of fearless motivation I have right now because welding has always intimidated me.

placd1

iTrader: (3)

LOL we're all intimidated by something or the other. Welding is your thing and electrical is mine. The mere mention of wiring or electronics puts me into a cold sweat!

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

Dude, just use your arc to tack it then take it to a pro to weld with their big expensive mig or tig and years of experience. Might cost you $20

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

And do a test weld on some scrap first.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

oh, don't get me started. bodywork is another "thing" of mine. the only difference is i have zero intention to try it. i don;t mind doing some minor prep once in a while. i also don't mind painting, but i know i have no business doing bodywork. i do have a desire to learn welding because so many of my experiments and ideas hinge on it. so after years of wishing and i decided to get off my ***!

i'm sure you're right, but i already know how to hand over money to others. i'm sure i'm an expert at that many times over. however, i'm trying to learn/teach myself welding. paying someone to do it for me does nothing for me in that regard.

i'm not building a header because i NEED one. i have 2. i'm building because i want to learn welding as a fabrication skill and intake/exhaust parts will probably be my main future use of that skill.

also, you're right about the test welding. i was absolutely intent on doing just that, but it was simply a matter of not having any "scrap" around on the night i decided to give it a go and i've had the tubes and flanges waiting for the day i could use them.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

LOL In this part of the country, any TIG job its $110 an hour plus materials!

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

Ok that $20 figure is a bit optimistic, (I just figured that wages, along with the price of goods and services, were lower in the US than here)
Below is a pic of what I did the other day. I notched in these wastegate runners and flanges and tacked them on, got a local guy who runs an engineering shop to weld them up - them up TIGed the flanges and MIG on the other bit. The welds are beautiful, the only real flaw is the chunkier bits where he had to go over my arc'ed tack welds. He charged me $40 for half an hours work. I gave him fifty cos he's awesome and I use him for machining and welding all sort of **** I don't have the equipment for. You could take your work to any exhaust shop too, but I doubt they may not do tig.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

NICE, it helps to "know" people that do this type of stuff. For the OP, I am with you, weld as much as you can. I purchased a cheap MIG from harbor freight, and went to town with it. Ended up building my own downpipe for the car.

Next project - route the open wastegates to the midpipe

dhennessey

iTrader: (1)

Practice Practice Practice, that's the only way to learn....

Maybe you should try on a simpler piece than a header, even a rotary header...

try making a battery box, or something else you need.... Get used to the welder and what you need to do for different thicknesses of metal / combinations...

the other tip i can give is to always make 100% sure there are no protective coatings or grease or other dirt on the areas you're welding.. it will only cause impurities, and weaker welds...

use a wire brush on or off a grinder or drill to prep the areas that will be welded together and if the pieces are quite thick, you may want to bevel them to enable the weld to penetrate better...

I am not familiar with arc, but you may also want to double check your choice of rod. 1/16" sounds a bit smaller than what most use, but again, i don't know much about arc...

Good luck and i hope you show off your creations soon!

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

thanks for the encouragement.

actually, now that you mention it, i do need a battery box. i wanted an aluminum one, but i guess there's no reason why i couldn't try to make one out of steel and use it until i graduate to aluminum welding.

admittedly, i did not spend an awful amount of time and effort cleaning the tubes, so i guess that could have played a part in my failure. however, i don't want to make it sound like an excuse. i'm sure most of my failure comes down to fact that i just suck right now. i'm a newbie.

i got some of the "good" blowing noise (shhhhhhh) on some areas of the welds, but i also spent a lot of time pulling the rod away because once i got the arc struck, it would fuse to the flange.

dhennessey

iTrader: (1)

If you want more info on welding, check out weldingtipsandtricks.com Jodi has quite a few good videos about settings / procedures and just watching to check out what a pro does....

You're already doing the first thing... take advice and don't think you know it all...

Keep at it, we need more people out there that DIY!

82transam

iTrader: (18)

^Agreed, nothing more annoying than someone who is asking for help then argues that the advice they're given is wrong...

That website is a great resource, I used it when I first started TIG welding to keep the learning curve as small as possible (within reason, TIG is definitely not easy to teach yourself)

diabolical1 - when you say arc welder, you're referring to a "stick" welder right - an old fashioned kind where you basically have a consumable filler rod in a clamp? If so I would suggest getting a wire feed welder, preferably one that can also do MIG welding - MIG meaning shielded by gas. The term "MIG" often gets thrown around whenever people are referring to any wire fed welder, but technically if you're using flux cored wire and no shielding gas you are not "MIG" welding. Just wanted to point out that distinction.

I taught myself how to weld using a Lincoln wire feed/MIG welder that I got at Lowes. For many years I just used flux cored wire, but changed over to MIG a few years ago. Either will work for what you want to do, but MIG produces a much cleaner weld with almost not cleanup needed afterwards.

In my opinion a stick welder is less than ideal for anything that we are interested doing on our cars. I'm sure some will disagree, but the only time I've ever wished I had a stick welder was to repair some cast iron.

That's not to say you can't get some good experience or practice in on one, just get some 1/8" steel scraps and practice laying down some beads, you'll get the hang of what works and what doesn't... Personally my hands aren't steady enough to operate any welder one handed, I usually have to support the torch with both hands. Not sure how you're going about this, but you might need to steady the clamp/rod with your other hand to keep it from dipping into the weld/getting stuck

Hope that helps

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

A stick welder isn't an ideal machine to build headers with, or really, work on any thin material with. It certainly can be done, and years ago I built an exhaust with nothing more than a 90A stick welder, a lot of patience, and some thin (3/32"?) electrodes. However, it's not a first project. It requires a lot of skill to control the motion of the electrode, the length of the arc and to maintain an arc on such thin metal and such low currents. Even worse with cheap welders as they lack the arc stabilization of more expensive units.

At the very minimum, a flux cored wire feed machine will allow much easier welding on thin material. Of course you are then limited to only mild steel, and flux core welds require a lot of cleanup of the flux residue and significant splatter they generate.

I can't recall there being any videos of me using a flux cored welder, but plenty of me using a MIG welder on sheet metal. MIG and flux core processes can look the same.

If you are going to upgrade your welder, then going to a MIG would be ideal for header construction. Yes, you'd have to have a gas bottle around but perhaps you could borrow/rent one when needed and just run flux core on other jobs? Then again, gas bottles are quite cheap to just purchase.

Of course the grand daddy of all welding processes is TIG. You can basically weld whatever you want with a TIG machine. That's a fairly major investment in equipment and skill though, not really for the casual user.

KansasCityREPU

iTrader: (9)

I purchased a cheap Harbor Freight flux wire welder (no gas) because it only cost $90 and I can't weld crap with it. My welds look horrible . I learned to use a stick welder back in my high school days (over 30 years ago). I wonder how much nicer a MIG gas or even TIG would be to use and lay down good welds? Do TIG welders lay down a nicer weld then MIG? Which would be more versatile if you only had a choice of one of them?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Wire speed is critical for the cheap flux core machines. You'll find there is a very narrow range where the machine will perform. My cheap flux core welder is really only usable between "7" and "10" on the dial with the high current setting, and I don't quite remember what works well on the low current setting as I rarely use it.

The nicest wire feed welds will come from a properly set up MIG machine. Minimal splatter and no flux residue. With a proper torch pattern MIG welds will lay down very well. Almost all work one would typically do on a car can be accomplished by MIG. Sheet metal, exhaust, etc. While MIG will weld steel, stainless and aluminium, aluminum is best left to TIG. MIG welding aluminium really requires a spool gun, a practiced gun technique and a more advanced machine than the typical DC MIG.

TIG can produce the best welds of them all on basically any metal you want. Steel, stainless, aluminum, copper, magnesium, titanium, etc. It's all down to the skill of the operator. TIG is a steeper learning curve and takes a considerable amount of practice. It's also the largest initial investment. Unless you find a great used deal, an AC/DC TIG is going to cost about $1500, plus a large gas bottle, and supplies (tungsten, cups, filler, etc.). TIG also does not do very well on dirty material so for sheet metal repairs, a lot of prep is required and it takes some skill. On the other side, the welds produced require less grinding and are more easier to work afterwards.

82transam

iTrader: (18)

Great info from Aaron as usual. Like he said, unless you plan to really get into a lot of fab work, the TIG is probably a waste of money for you. A good MIG though is priceless. The gas bottles can get had pretty cheap from Tractor Supply Company and are usually in stock

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

good Lord! there's been some activity in this thing and i'm late. i just happened to be searching for a thread i posted in a few months ago and noticed that this one had more posts in it now.

anyway, thanks to all for the replies. i am taking your shared experiences and words of advice to heart and it is very much appreciated.

yes. that's what i have.

the more i learned, the more i started to realize that this is probably the kind of setup i should have gotten. however, when i went to buy the welder i simply did not have the savvy to know exactly what i was getting at the time. it was sheer ignorance on my part. it's really that simple. i knew i had some money in my pocket, and i knew i wanted to a welder. that was about it.

it's a lesson learned. i'm not beating myself up over it any more and i do plan to use it to get more experience with it. i'll cut the header back apart and put the parts away, then just practice on whatever other metal i can get my hands on.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

based on my limited and unsuccessful experience, these are the conclusions i've come to as well. i will consider my main question answered now.

i've recently shifted my focus onto the getting the Gen II started and RUNNING by the new year, so the welding is back on the bench ... literally! any money that i budget for myself for cars/projects will go to the Gen II in one way or another now, so that means no new welder until sometime after the new year.

admittedly, i find the terms a bit confusing, so i guess i misspoke. i was basically looking at the tip you were holding for the welds (if i recall, the video i referenced in my original post was when you were doing the front framework on your Cosmo - it lit a fire under me, so thank you. )


well, i dream of TIG (because of the metals it would allow me to work with) someday, but i'm really not trying to look that far ahead. right now, i'm just fine with getting experienced enough to create something functional. i'm not even THAT concerned with aesthetics.

however, yeah, i will be looking toward getting a MIG for the header project. now that you have confirmed what i suspected, i feel much better that i'm understanding what i'm learning, at least conceptually.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Many flux cored machines can be converted to MIG, so that might be something to look up for yours. Even if there isn't an official conversion, it can still be done. Reverse the polarity, replace torch line with one containing a gas tube (the torch likely already supports this, replace it if not), add a gas port and solenoid. Done and done, one MIG.

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

This thread has become pretty informative for novice welders the like of myself. Just scored a part I needed for my old 130a MIG machine and a disposable gas bottle with adapter kit and some solid mild steel wire, will give it a bash soon to see how it goes,

cant get stainless gas in a disposable bottle though, so I'm
also thinking about running some gasless S/S wire for some S/S stuff I want to do (dump pipe, I/C piping and wastegate plumbing, among other things) Anyone have an opinion on S/S flux core before I fork out 50-60 odd dollars on a roll? I don't want to hire a bottle, as they are rapists and i'll never get my moneys worth out of it for the piddly amount of use I need it for.

Or has anyone tried MIG on stainless steel with regular gas?

Worse come to worse, i'll just keep using my current technology 170a "stick" welder to tack stuff and get a professional to lay the actual beads.

For what its worth, the newer arc or stick welders **** all over "gasless mig" IMO. I cant see myself going back to it.

dhennessey

iTrader: (1)

That may be true, however, the chinese knockoff machines aren't usually the ones you want to convert, anything with a decent enough inverter and regulator will already support gas... IMHO

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Most of the flux cored stainless wire also requires a gas shield. At least, my local welding store could not get any which was straight flux core when I was asking many years ago.

For exhaust parts, you can typically use the same argon-CO2 mix you use when welding steel. For higher quality stainless you need to run pure argon.

Argon MIG welds very poorly. It takes some technique.

dhennessey

iTrader: (1)

Just curious, would you still back purge when mig welding stainless tubing? Like you would with tig?