hondah8er

Enzo totally off topic but do you tune haltech/microtech?

jetenginedoctor

Evil A-

I think you are mis-reading the point I'm trying to make. It's one thing to have a friend with a lot of experience help you do something they're arguably an expert at, it's something altogether different to put the wellbeing of your car in the hands of a well-meaning stranger who needs your car in order to try to ATTAIN expert status.

Guitar guy-

Frankly, the fact that you think you don't need a dyno, and can safely tune with nothing more than an EGT gauge and a wideband A/F meter shows not only that you've never learned to tune the right way, but that you're arrogantly suggesting that anyone who insists that using a dyno to tune is in some way less of a tuner than you. I promise you that if/when the day comes that you do learn to tune an engine in a safe, logical manner, you will no-doubt reverse your stand on whether or not a dyno is an important thing to have when tuning. We're not talking about some cheap low-buck small block Chevy engines that you can buy all day long for a few hundred dollars a pop, nearly bulletproof (or mulletproof????) and common as fleas on a dog. We're talking about tuning a very unforgiving little engine that costs more to repair than to buy 90% of the beater cars that small block Chevy are likely to find a home in. The only reason I even poke my head into this thread is because I'm frequently the guy that my customers see AFTER somebody trys to give them a low-cost tune. After paying for an engine twice, they realize that it would have been a lot cheaper and less of an emotional drag if theyd have just paid for a quality tune in the first place. But, we all make mistakes, I just think it's important to let people learn from the mistakes of others. I'm not suggesting that you can't tune, or that you are trying to blow up anyone's cars. . . . I'm just suggesting that you're leaving yourself enormous deniable culpability by tuning unfamiliar ECUs "for free" with no risk to yourself other than somebody bashing you on the internet. Just be really careful with the other guy's car. . . . okay?

BK

GUITARJUNKIE28

i understand the concern, but i've been street tuning without any failures--except once in my own engine...

maybe you go to the $200/hr dynos, but all the ones i've seen just plug in a sniffer or wideband and do pulls. that's ghetto in my opinion. while you can get the afr's good, it doesn't touch drivability or fuel economy.
it's true i haven't been doing this for decades...that's why i tune everything safe-not for the maximum power achievable.

and you guys are still implying stuff i never said.

jetenginedoctor

I don't go to any dyno except my own. The cost of dyno time at a facility where you can see the effect of changes to both A/F ratio and ignition advance in real time is a bargain when you compare it to the cost of repairing or replacing a blown up engine.

I too used to tune primarily on the road and never blew anything up. I probably have my luck and strong paranoia about blowing up a customer's car to thank for that. I'm sure that none of the cars I tuned back then run anywhere as good as I could have them running these days. I honestly believe that it's not a matter of being a super expert tuner. Instead, it's a matter of having a logical, systematic approach to the task as well as having the proper tools at your disposal. A wideband and EGT just don't cut it.

Anyway, I'm not interested in a flame war. I'm quite sure of myself, and I'm sure you feel quite sure of yourself as well. I just hope that you'll be at least curious enough to find out what it is that I'm talking about and perhaps learn it before you hurt your car or somebody else's in the process of "learning." I'm trying to help you, not get under your skin.

BK

GUITARJUNKIE28

ok if you wanna help, i'm all ears. i never claimed to be an expert at anything. i just don't understand the difference between egt on a dyno and egt on the road....

and i'm not not in favor of dynos! i do most of the fine tuning on them--especially in higher hp cars where it's basically unsafe to tune on the street. if i can get everything ballpark on the road, why not save $3-400, then just do the fine tuning on the dyno.

and as far as learnng new systems goes, i could play around with the cruise tuning and learn what i need to know. yes, there is a risk of making a mistake with a new system, but i think it's been blown way out of proportion. i've never blown up someone elses car, and if i did, i guess they'd get a free rebuild out of it.

jetenginedoctor

You can't correctly tune a car by EGTs. You need to be able to see the result of timing and fuel changes on the engine's torque in REAL TIME! This is where the dyno comes into play. Note that I'm not talking about an inertia dyno.

Go buy the Ben Strader book, read it cover to cover. Then go take one of his seminars. I promise you that it'll be a huge learning experience for you, and you'll be very glad you did. I'm not trying to bash on you, but I don't think your approach to tuning is very safe, nor is it very logical.

BK

GUITARJUNKIE28

i'm all about safe.
i may not extract every single ounce of power out of an engine the way i do it, but like i said before--the only car i've blown up is my own.
but i'll get the book anyway--what's the name?

GUITARJUNKIE28

how about i bring my car to you if i'm ever in the area and you can critique my tuning on it?

jetenginedoctor

Is this topic the only thing you think about?

I'll show you where you could have done better, but it will cost you. In order to do that, I have to essentially re-tune the car and show you the before and after test results. I don't do that for free. I'm 100% certain that I can find power using the dyno that you left on the table using the seat of your pants, wideband, and EGT. This isn't open for debate. Your argument is as baseless as suggesting that you can more accurately torque a bolt using a regular old socket and rachet than I can with a torque wrench. You cannot quantify the results of tuning changes without a dyno. EGT does in no way reflect optimal A/F mixture or ignition advance. A dynamometer does. End of discussion.

BK

GUITARJUNKIE28

you're pretty quick to criticise.

eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

Very interesting thread.

I watched Steve Kan re-tune my car on a dyno. He found holes in my map that I did not even feel on the street. So much for my own tuning

I'm sure BK can elaborate if he wants to, but a dyno allows you to tune for MBT. The dyno can tell you when you have advanced ignition too much by showing a reduction in power. This allows you to optimize your ignition maps. That is something you can't do in the street.

Anyone can tune to a certain AFR, even myself. Its optimized igniton tuning that separates a decently tuned car from a well tuned one.

But there is something to be said about tuning knowledge vs interface knowledge, since I had to give Steve a refresher course on the Wolf3D because he doesn't tune too many. Luckily I knew my EMS

Anyway, just babbling, not taking sides. I respect what both sides have to offer, and would probably allow and experienced tuner to street tune my car as well if that was their preference.

RETed

Geez, this got nasty pretty quickly...


Hey, I take offense to that!

I can tune a 13B with just an EGT gauge and a narrow-band AFR gauge... *GASP*
BUT, I tell all my customers that this is a street tune that can only go up to 90% of power potential.
If you want that last 5% to 10% of power potential, yes, a dyno is basically required.
BUT, I don't like to tune to the ragged edge, especially for street, daily driven vehicles, and my tuning shoots for the safe side of things - i.e. rich fuel maps with conservative ignition timing.

I was able to tune our 20B FC track car with no turbos with just the EGT and Autometer AFR 20LED gauge on the street.
When we got the car on the dyno, the fuel maps were pretty much dead on except for after peak HP at around 7,000RPM.
In fact, with the dyno, we were able to drop the ignition timing from 25 to 20 to drop the EGT's and only dropping 1 to 2hp.
We got more gains messing around with the Haltech ignition settings going into the MSD DIS-4 - constant duty @ 30%, overall gain of almost 5hp across the board! - that with messing with the fuel or ignition maps.
BTW, this 20B NA gets 15 to 17mpg on mixed city/highway driving.
We've probably put in only 3 - 4 hours of street tuning so far, so it's far from being refined.
We've been fighting ignition problems since day 1, but we think we solved it - broken pin on #2 channel on the DIS-4.

BUT, this is backed with a lot of experience with tuning Haltech's with the EGT gauges.
And like I said before, I don't tune to the ragged edge of power potential; I'd rather sacrifice 5hp for lower EGT's and safer, more reliable engine life.


-Ted

GUITARJUNKIE28

yea ted, but remember it's not safe....so every car you, i or anyone else has ever street tuned does not work, and absolutely will blow up any minute now...

RETed

That should be... that's with*OUT* messing with the fuel or ignition maps.


-Ted

jetenginedoctor

Hi Ted, I knew you'd jump on my EGT gauge remarks sooner or later. . . .

I know you've been doing it this way for quite a while, but trust me. . . . I 100% guarantee that you can tune better and faster with the proper dyno. If you ever make it to Texas, look me up and I'll show you how.

BK

GUITARJUNKIE28

so how come you're nice to ted and a dick to me?

gen3RxProj

Probably because he is from Hawaii. Ted would send Da Hui off the island to trounce him. ha.

GUITARJUNKIE28

lol

SkylarNeedsParts

lol you have no idea what you are talking about. try telling steve kan or any other world class tuner that you "MUST HAVE" a dyno to tune with.they offer street tuning as much as dyno tuning and get the exact same results. and dont try saying its because they have all this experience. thats true, however, do you really believe they started tuning on a dyno...no they started just like this guy did..do some research before you speak. and all this crap youre giving him about insurance and bonding is just that....crap. hes offering to tune someones car for free, and is therefore not selling a service. He blatantly stated that he was willing to tune for free because he is learning these systems. if you want to put your car in his hands its between you and him. hes already said he tunes conservatively and isnt out to test the limits of whatever mediocre setup you have on your car. hes using this to learn with. if you dont want your car tuned by him then thats fine, but if you arent going to do say something more productive than what youve already said then stay out of this thread and start one of your own so you can post where it wont take up space in someone elses thread, then you and your friends can stay there and congratualate yourselves on how little you know but how much fun you have telling each other that you know better than they do with your experience...oh thats right...YOU DONT HAVE ANY...just because you dont have the skills necessary to street tune doesnt mean other people dont.

thanks - Sky

GUITARJUNKIE28

his last post turned from you can't do it at all "safely" to just a dyno is better and faster.... if you got a story, stick to it!

jetenginedoctor

And who are you to say what I do and don't know about? Exactly WHO are YOU again?

Like I said to Ted, I guarantee that they can do better with the correct dyno than without. What would you like to wager on that one, friend?

And how do you quantify that statement? That's like saying you can determine the dimentions of a part without measuring tools just as well as if you had a DMM. Absolutely rediculous. . . . .

I think I know what conclusion you're jumping to, but you're wrong. You don't think that a dyno is an important piece of equipment? Think that it's an unecessary expense? Tell that to Shiv at Vishnu Performance. Tell that to Andrew at Dyno4mance, tell that to Toyota Racing Development, etc. Tell them that to them and the rest of my customers that they wasted millions of dollars on useless equipment, and they will laugh straight in your face. There is somebody in this conversation that doesn't know what they're talking about. That somebody is you.

Psssst. . . . . . I didn't start out tuning on a dyno either. I've been pretty lucky to have had good results tuning on the road, but as the cost and HP of the cars I was dealing with continued to grow, it was plain to me that I was going to have to have a real dyno in order to really get the most out of my customers cars.

That's good advice. I suggest you do the same.

That would be Evil-A's concern, not mine. Funny, you're trying to take me to task, but you can't even keep track of what I have actually STATED.

And a wise man once said, "You get what you pay for."

Did he state that blatantly, or did he state that clearly? All this drama makes it hard to choose the right words, huh?

And what dog do you have in this fight? I'm here stating facts that I can back up, you're just here to talk some stain and try to be a bigshot.

What makes you think that the setup on my car (or anyone else reading this) is mediocre? You're pretty condecending for somebody without a leg to stand on.

An education that will cost him nothing, but could potentially cost somebody (perhaps more than one person) a damaged engine. Most guys would probably prefer to learn for themselves, don't you think? Rather than entrust somebody who knows no more about what they're doing than they do themselves? This is just silly, why do you continue to argue in favor of it? Oh yeah, because you like to stir the pot.

Yeah, that'd be a little like Pee Wee Herman offering body building tips to Arnold Schwartzeneger. Though he means well, he's not likely to be taken up on his offer.

*****SNIP*****

You're the one yammering nonsensical jibberish. I'm ready to prove in person anyone who doubts the facts I present. How is that not productive? You're playing Susie Cheerleader for a guy you probably don't even know. If you're looking for a date, you're going about it the wrong way. . . .

*****UN-SNIP*****

Yeah, us dummies with experience road tuning, dyno tuning, and know the way we do it now is a lot better than the way we used to do it. . . . . congrats brothers!!!!

Oh yeah man. . . . you know me oooooh so well!!!! Can't fool you, can I???? You sooooo smart!!!!!!

Yeah, I guess you told me, huh. . . . . Lemme know when you're in the Austin, TX area, and I'll give you a free lesson on how to tune a car the right way. That is, if your Mommy will let you. . . . .

Thank YOU, for the laughs!

jetenginedoctor

Ted is one of a few tuners on this board who were doing it before I was. I have for years disagreed with his claims and methods, him stating that he can tune effectively with an EGT and a narrow band O2 sensor (if memory serves me, Ted please correct me if I'm wrong.) I tend to cut slack for guys who have done this as long or longer than me, whether I agree with them or not. Ted and I don't know each other personally. Truth is, we have crossed horns in the past, but I think we both share respect for each other despite our differences of opinion. One day, he and I are going to meet, go out for a few beers, and I'm going to take him to the shop and let him use my dyno. We'll let him be the judge after he's had a chance to do it my way. I'm confident even Ted will be a believer given the chance to experience this method of tuning.

As for everyone else. . . . . I don't know you. You might have thousands of successful tunes under your belt, though I doubt it. I'm here reading where a fledgling tuner is trying to educate himself the wrong way, and I'm trying to do the right thing by offering him the correct alternative. If he wants to tune cars for free, that's great. . . . . provided he does so in a safe manner. He can do a much better job on one of our dynos, and I'm ready and willing to SHOW him that personally. Since when does me trying to guide a guy in the right direction constitute an affront worthy of personal attacks by a bunch of guys on the internet who don't know the first thing about me? Like me or not, I've been around plenty long enough to know what I'm talking about. You can choose to either listen to me or not. The guys that listen will be the ones who accel in the tuning industry. It's my job to make better tuners out of guys like Guitar Guy, not trade flames on a car forum.

GUITARJUNKIE28

you're still using a dmm??? how ghetto is that.
there's no way you can accurately measure voltage with a dmm!!! around here, we use a labscope.

i do think you know what you're doing. you're just an ******* and are trying to bash me for no apparent reason. no one said dyno tuning sucked. but you said you can't safely tune a car on the street-which is just wrong.

i gave you the benefit of the doubt--since you know so much, teach me...and all you did was talk more ****. if you don't have anything productive to say, stay off this thread.

street tuning has its place, dyno tuning has its place.

jetenginedoctor

Do you know what a DMM is? It's not a digital multi meter, like what you're thinking. . . . that wouldn't do any good to measure an object's DIMENSIONS!!

Do a search for the term 'metrology.' There's your homework for tonight. Extra credit if you can explain to me the difference between this and your multi-meter. . .



how about this one????

jetenginedoctor

By the way, what kind of engineer do you claim to be? Who do you work for?