Bori12A

iTrader: (1)

Hello all, I'm looking for some advice/information. I'm definitely going to be needing an EMS in the near future when my engine is complete. I'm wondering what are the features that I should be looking for in an EMS (safety features, options, standard features).

On Haltech's website they said:

"There are many differences between engine management systems. Things to look at include:
The number of inputs and outputs. Having more inputs and outputs offer more functionality in the way of ignition and injection types as well as extra outputs to control extra devices. Tuning resolution is also very important. The Haltech systems have 32×22 point mapping which gives excellent tuning potential. Finally, remember to make sure your ECU has closed loop O2 control, idle control and boost control all as standard."

I've browsed through here to usually its a thread about people asking what is better or which to buy, I'm more interested in when you are ready to get yours what are you looking for that tells you "This is quality/This is crap/not good enough". I want to make an informed decision not just base my decision on what is most common. One of the members on here wrote to pick about 2 EMS' that you like and than look for a tuner, but how do you get to those "2".

*** If it matters at all this will be for a 12A that is being converted to turbo and EFI. I will be using a S4/S5 Turbo II intake. I have more details if it matters**** Thanks for any help

Bori12A

iTrader: (1)

I should've said it's being built for turbo not "converted" going in an 85GSL

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

I find VE tuning is far more important than ecu resolution( unless its something less than 16 x 16). More resolution is not very important on a rotary, unless its something running more than 40psi or turning past 11k rpms.

Support is also very important aside from features. How much support you need really depends on if you are the one installing and or tuning it.

If you are doing either the install or tune it is important that you get very good tech support. This comes from either your dealer, or the ecu manufacturer. If you buy from an online shop( one that won't be doing the tuning), they might not offer an tech support.

Don't forget about future development either. There aren't a lot of ecu manufacturers who are really catering to the rotary market these days.

This article below really outlines why we prefer the Adaptronic brand. Make sure to check out all the hyperlinks too.

Adaptronic Engine Management Systems | TurboSource

Bori12A

iTrader: (1)

Thanks alot! I'm going to do some reading now

Akagis_white_comet

iTrader: (4)

+1 here for the current lack of information. I am in the process of fixing this in a cohesive, easy-to-understand manner, so stay tuned and you'll see some good things happen.

Turblown is spot-on about support from the manufacturer. I've dealt with Haltech a few times and have been quite impressed by them, based on their attention to detail and promptness in addressing specific issues. Also, their installation diagrams are clear, concise and easy for the average person to follow.

As for future development, this is another excellent point. Since I got my PS2K in 2010, Haltech has developed a few complimentary items to it, such as the I/O Expander12 box.

OTOH, Microtech's support has been a bit lacking based on numerous reports of lackluster service and of promised features never seeing the light of day. I was very unimpressed with their wiring diagrams as well. Seriously, missing characters on the ECU connector pinout???

Although I cannot give an informed opinion about the support network for the Megasquirt in its various incarnations, the I/O capabilities of the MS3-Pro are very impressive, as is its AutoTune feature. Aaron Cake would be the one to ask about such as he has considerably more experience with it than I do.

With regard to wiring your standalone, they all pretty much have the same requirements, give or take a little: Power, Ground, fuel pump, etc. Aaron Cake did a fantastic job on the MS3-Pro install video for his 76 Cosmo here:

Bori12A

iTrader: (1)

There's lots of information on that page you linked (hyperlinks too) that's pretty impressive. I've also noticed what you are saying about not many manufacturers catering to the rotary market. I visited their page, after finishing up with that article, to check out some of their units and I saw they have the link to where they recommend an ECU for your needs but under the Rx7's they only have S4 and up. I would have to contact them to see what they would recommend for my 12A correct?

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

You will need a wire in model for a 12A, either the E420D Basic or E440D Select

Adaptronic Universal Select Series

Main differences are traction control, flex fuel control, and adaptive tuning between the two.

Bori12A

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for posting as well. I actually saw Aaron Cake's video first and that's kind of what brought the question to my mind, because I know some of the guys on here that are very experienced don't just trust their engine life to a specific EMS because it's "popular". So I wondered what is it exactly that made Haltech so popular, what is it that engine builders and shops look for when building a customer car or shop car that lets them put their trust in using or recommending an EMS. Which is why I appreciate Turblown weighing in. I'm always into learning more especially automotive related, and even more if it relates to my dear Rx7, so as you said "I'll stay tuned".

Bori12A

iTrader: (1)

In the article you linked I believe I read that the plug in Rx7 units can use the factory CAS, is this also true of the wire in units?

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

You can use any sensor, including a CAS on every adaptronic model.

hoosier7

Care to explain this a little more? How is the method of fuel calculation a substitute for resolution?

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Sure. Keep in mind as with anyone's posts here, this is my opinion based on my own experience, and should never be taken as an absolute truth. I have tuned roughly 500+ rotaries, and a few pistons etc, but I don't claim to be an expert tuner.

There aren't any major differences in a rotary engines VE curve, like VVTI, etc. The fuel curve is pretty flat, just look at any properly tuned rotary engine's fuel map. This is even more true in positive pressure, vacuum areas do move around a little bit more. Therefore you won't see a huge difference in tuning when moving from 16 x 16 to 32 x 32. Most people would never be able to notice the difference in a proper tune moving between the two different resolutions on a rotary. You have to keep in mind that the ECU interpolates between your fuel inputs.

Now the difference between an ecu with an without Ve tuning is night and day. Outside of sensor settings( trigger, injector sizing, etc) you don't need a base fuel map when using VE tuning. You can literally start and run ANY engine port, turbo, fuel injector configuration in under 5 minutes. If you look through the blog link about there is a link that explains the VE tuning, and shows this. Furthermore once you are up and running you can tune the engine twice as fast using VE tuning compared to just INJ MS on time, and since the ecu does a lot of the calculations for you, if you are an inexperienced tuner you will end up with a better tune( much more consistent target AFRs across the board). Furthermore if you ever over boost, or have an large ambient or temperature change you fuel map will be a lot more likely to be on target with VE tuning.

I once tuned a car to 23psi, and after finishing the tune we decided to turn up the boost. I looked at the rest of the fuel map, and was able to roughly calculate the rest of the ecus fuel flow past where it was tuned to. A map tuned in VE, is 100x easier to read than one in INJ MS. This only took me 5 minutes to interpolated( NOT just using the interpolate ECU function, but looking at the map and knowing where it needs to be)the rest of the map. Well there was an issue with the BC setup, and the car hit 29psi. I stayed in the pull as the AFRs were dead on. I've had this happen multiple times with just using INJ MS tuning and I've always had to lift as the target AFRs were way off...

So to be clear I never said VE tuning was a replacement for ECU resolution, I just said that you really don't need anything more than 16 x 16 for 95% of rotary engines.

The next Adaptronic platform will probably be 32 x 32, but this will mainly be to accommodate piston engines( most engines now a days are dual VVTI), or those other 5% of rotary engines( running very high boost, or very high rpms). Currently the Adaptronic resolution is 32 x 16.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

What is noticeable by the driver and what is acceptable by the tuner are different things. In most cases the qty of breakpoints doesn't really matter, but more never hurt anyone. Also in some applications you may find yourself moving around breakpoints to fix unexpected fueling issues due to differences in intake, exhaust systems and/or engine porting. If you have more breakpoints to use you wont have to move the breakpoints. Also the interpolation of the ecu is not always the same between the ECUs. So saying a 16x16 is not much different than a 32x32 is not very true.

If I do not have a Lambda sensor connected to my ECU will my engine still start in less than 5 minutes and will take half the time to tune? I think you may be confusing VE Tuning for Closed loop control.

This is nothing specific to VE Tuning. If you use any type of manifold pressure compensation in your fuel calculation you will already have this type of fuel prediction. Some people use AlphaN in turbocharged applications. The main fuel map is Throttle v. RPM. All of the changes in fueling for differences in manifold pressure are done in an auxiliary fuel trim map. In alphaN you only have one 100% throttle row. This means under WOT you can run from full vacuum to max manifold pressure by the MAP sensor and the ECU will precalculate all of fueling requirements. Again nothing to do with VE Tuning specifically.

EB Turbo