0piston

iTrader: (8)

A plug-in TEC-3 unit for Mazda RX-7's, offered by Shane Racing. Anyone have any experiance with the tec III, did it live up to what they said it could do? I remember when they were releasing it, there was so much hype then..... nothing.

http://www.shaneracing.com/TEC%203.html

forcefed7

I think that it's a great unit, I've had one on my car for a few months now...

0piston

iTrader: (8)

Hey Force! you have to email me that diagram

600HP CLUB

shoot, this is great.
finally some plug and play because im super stupid withe electrical, any other things about tec 3 besides it's a great unit? any pros and cons i should know before i get myself into this mess!!


-mike

RETed

I don't understand it...how can it be a plug&play when you need to bolt-on THEIR ignition trigger system???


-Ted

ZoomZoom

iTrader: (2)

In the past you had to cut up the wiring harness and use all GM sensors. The Trigger wheels makes the timing much more acurate. Within a tenth of a degree. As far as Plug and play they mean Plug it into the Stock harness and use stock sensors. The Trigger wheel and the Mag sensor is the only other Mod. It makes the system all work where the stock system is lacking. If your going to tune your car and spend thousands to do it might as well be acurate. The system offers a wide variety of options and is for the true race car. For the daily driven car I would suggest soemthing a bit simpler and cheaper like the PFC.

RETed

Electromotive claims 1/4-degree acccuracy - where did you get "within a tenth of a degree"???&nbsp Sure, I agree that ignition accuracy is superior, but I have yet to see PROOF of this in real-world situations.&nbsp Have people bloen motors cause they are off by half a degree?&nbsp One-degree?&nbsp I sure haven't...

The Haltech E6K with a K2RD plug&play harness uses the stock ingition trigger system.&nbsp The only exception is the MAP sensor, which i'd bet the TEC systems also replace.&nbsp I'd say this system is a LOT more plug&play than the TEC is.

What is your definition of a "true race car"?&nbsp Road Racing?&nbsp Drag racing?&nbsp How do you define a more superior EMS unit?&nbsp Which ones goes faster?&nbsp Which one doesn't blow up?&nbsp Bottom line, it really has very little to do with the EMS unit itself - this is more of a testament of the tuner's abilities.&nbsp I find the Haltech can do almost anything the TEC systems can do in terms of engine control.

What it comes down to is extra features.&nbsp Sure, the TEC units can do knock control and self-tuning.&nbsp Sure the TEC systems have a Windows interface.&nbsp Does it mean it's truly "better"?&nbsp Not necessarily...&nbsp You can stop quoting brochure material now - I bet you have ZERO experience with Haltech systems?



-Ted

ZoomZoom

iTrader: (2)

Actually Ted I worked For Electromotive. We took Haltechs off of a couple single turbo RX-7's and put Tec II units on them. Without any other modification we made as much as 20HP on the Dyno additional than with the Haltech. As far as Haltechs go I am sure they work just fine. As far as who has the Best unit goes I cannot hand that to Haltch. We tested both units and noticed the Haltch had as much as 10 degrees of spark scatter above 7k RPM. As far as the Map sensor goes. Sure you can upgrade to a 3 bar map so you can have a finer tune as well as run higher Boost. What I mean by True race car is that many Drag racers in particular run N20 as well as a turbo and the Tec units can handle the extra outputs to control additional output solinoids and tune everything all on one unit without additional electronics etc. As far as reading brochures, Nice Stab. Ted Tec units are not as widely used because of the price not the performance. You can get a Haltech or Apexi unit for almost half the price. Like anything else in Life You get what you pay for. Saying that, not everyone needs a Tec. Myself, I run an Apexi PFC. The reason is I still have Stock twins and the Tec III had not come out when I needed an ECU and the Apex unit did everything I needed at the time so I just bought it. I am not against using a haltech or Apex ECU but there are a couple superior ECU's on The Market. Motors have been blow on every type of ECU. Its more more an Issue of responsible tuning and Engine condition than it is any other major contributer to failure. A rotary engine seems to make the most power just as its about to grenade. That also makes acurate timing very important when running the ragged edge. Its a Debate not a slam contest. Lets not make derogatory comments on my charecter because you have some problem with being wrong.

RETed

Oh, this is going to get interesting...&nbsp May I ask what your name is please and what your position in Electromotive?


This could be blames on better tuning with the Electromotive and inferior tuning on the Haltech.&nbsp This doesn't prove anything.


Interesting comment...&nbsp If you really work for Electromotive, I automatically label your comments are "biased."&nbsp I find your 20hp advantage hard to swallow...


Care to tell use the exact conditions and equipment used to come to this conclusion?&nbsp We've run "cheapie" induction timing lights up that high, and 10&#176 of scatter is something even these crappy lights would obviosuly show - nope, never seen that bad of a deviation.


You mean you're perfectly fine with a 2-bar MAP when running close to 1 bar of boost?&nbsp You're perfectly fine that if the boost happens to creep, that having the 2-bar MAP sensor "clamp" at 15psi with no higher maps to run on is perfectly fine with you?


Um, a Haltech can control NOS output...&nbsp What's the big deal...&nbsp Like I said before, it all ends up being a big fights over "extras."


Oh, I agree...but there is a term in the dictionary:&nbsp "overpriced."


Boy, now that's a surprise...


I didn't say the Haltech is the end-all of stand-alone EMS units.&nbsp Personally, I'd rather have a MoTeC, but that's a whole nother price range...&nbsp To be grouping the Haltech and PowerFC is a major mistake...&nbsp They are not even close to being similar.


Exactly...that's why I question your claim about 20hp more out of the TEC over the Haltech....&nbsp That's a pretty poor assumption that the swapping of ECU's got your the 20hp.


I think ALL ICE's are like that, not just rotary engines...


I've got no problem being wrong.&nbsp I have a problem when someone tells me I'm wrong with no way to back up their claims.&nbsp I'd happily bow to your claims if you can prove them...this forum (and the entire Net) is full of crap a lot of people spew.&nbsp I always take the critical side, unless you can show me positive proof otherwise.&nbsp I will not agree with you unless I have seen it myself - just because you say something does not mean I have to agree.

Looking forward to your comments...&nbsp I've had very bad experiences with ANY feedback from Electromotive systems.&nbsp All my visits to the Electromotive booth have ended with a bad taste in my mouth.&nbsp Any mention of a rotary engine, and they all point me to Tri-Point/Craig Naegler or Shane Racing/Ray Lochhead - either option is going to take a lot of money, as neither share their information unless you pay up front.



-Ted

ZoomZoom

iTrader: (2)

Well Ted I worked in the testing and repairs area as if I somehow have to prove now to you that my statements are valid. I also was comparing the Haltech vs the Tec II on a PFS Single Turbo car. I did say that a 3 bar map sensor can be used for more acurate manifold pressure readings. I dont understand your comment in relation to that. The 20hp gain was due to a combination of superior coils and the ablity to fine tune motor beyond the capabilities of the haltech or Software. You yourself admited the superior timing charecteristics of the Tec. Although you believed it doesnt matter. Its not the first time there has been a HP gain from the same swap. Ted you once again attack my word as non factual and biased and dismiss any findings we might have found. To tell you the truth Ted I do not favor either ECU for a stock Car with Bolt on Mods. Thats why I do not use either unit. As you liked to point out, it is "somehow not a surprise I dont use a Tec". I stated why I do not need either a Tec or Haltech. You seem the need to make some point of it in a derogatory way when I stated its not needed for my application. I do not push any particular ECU for every application because truthfully most street driven Cars do not need to spend the additional money for features they do not need. Motec ECU's are high performers and very expensive. I never said they were not. All in All Ted you cannot debate in a professional manner and its embarresing to talk to you when you make rediculous assumptions about me and or any knowledge I am trying to share with other members. I am sure you did have a bad experience talking to the booth. I had a bad experience with the guy in the Booth myself. Thats why I dont work there anymore. It has nothing to do with the performance of the unit itself. Of course many people dislike other RX-7 tuners because of thier demenor toward potential customers, I cant fault you for that. Your somewhat abrasive yourself so I can see why you didnt have a good experience talking to them either. I always try to be professional and share what information I have. You may refute the information I provide but you share your experiences and I share mine. I want to point out I am no longer affiliated with any Tuner shop. All information provided has been from previous experience and may or maynot reflect the official views or position of Electromotive Engine Controls Inc. If your interested in who I am you can PM me and we can discuss it. Lets keep this civil and not the typical pissing match your trying to bring.

HWO

basically the maps on the haltech single turbos rx7's weren't fully 100% tuned they had 20-25 more HP left in them and be spending a few more hours on the dyno, as they did with the tec system they ironed out those extra horses, weather it had been a tec, e6k or a microtech system there would have been 20hp to be had with the extra time spent on the dyno.


in other words, its advertising bolloux as ted is suspecting.

Shane Tofts
Kermit Green Series 4 RX-7 with HALTECH E6K

RETed

Testing and repairs...does that make you a repair tech?&nbsp Or does that qualify you as being capable of tuning an Electromotive unit on any automotive application?&nbsp What about other stand-alone EMS units?&nbsp Are you capable of doing that too?


How do you qualify yourself as being able to justify those statements?&nbsp Did you tune the Electromotive unit yourself, or did someone else did?&nbsp Did you attempt to tune the Haltech itself, or did your assumption tell you it was incapable of further fine-tuning?&nbsp Explain to me why the Haltech was limited in terms of not being able to produce more power like the Electromotive unit?&nbsp Was it the coils?


Sure, in theory...I have not seen it under real-world conditions.&nbsp No one pushing an Electromotive EMS unit has been able to in front of my face to this day; I'm still waiting.


Sure, I can say a number of people who have switched from Electromotive to Haltech and gained power.&nbsp Does this mean the Haltech is superior than the Electromotive?&nbsp No, not in my book.


I am cynical on ANYONE who claims their EMS system is "superior."&nbsp That 20hp claim already puts me on the defensive, as it is total bullshit - sorry if you're insulted by my use of langauge.&nbsp Hey, you can cry like a baby all you want, but BOTTOM LINE is you haven't proved anything.&nbsp Talk is cheap - you just made some claims, and I haven't seen any evidence to back it up.&nbsp All I hear is you-insult-my-authority-and-you're-a-jerk response.&nbsp Sorry if I come across abrasive - why don't you prove me wrong?&nbsp Claiming **** is not ENOUGH on here - too much crap is spewed everyday on this board alone.&nbsp Sorry if I put you in with the bullshit crowd, but this is how it goes until you give me undeniable proof of your claims.&nbsp By the way, it doesn't count that someone ELSE did something, and you're just regurgitating the scenario.&nbsp Unless you can give me all details (for example with the Haltech to Electromotive swaps - how much was the Haltech tuned?&nbsp Who did the tuning?&nbsp [BTW, PFS is NOT a good Haltech tuner]&nbsp Did you use identical ignition maps?&nbsp Was the fuel delivery changed in any way?&nbsp Was all other factors kept in constant?).&nbsp Yeah, it sure does sound a lot, but I've seen too much crap made because of mistuning and misinformation.

The SW20 MR-2 Turbo crowd *HATES* Haltechs.&nbsp Why?&nbsp Cause one of their "authorities" tried to install a Haltech on their 3S-GTE, and they ran into a mountain of problems.&nbsp Now "Haltech" is a dirty name in their circles...

You see what I'm getting at?

I don't really are if you come back to answer or if you run away.&nbsp I've had it out a lot worse with a number of people, and you're the biggest wuss I've ever come across.&nbsp Two posts and you're already whining about my treatment to you.&nbsp What the hell man?&nbsp You got some big ego I bruised?



-Ted

Evil Aviator

Technical debates are great for this forum, but please try to refrain from personal attacks. FYI, asking a question is considered much more pollite than making an accusation, and will yield the same useful information in the response.

Some thoughts from a moderator who has nothing to sell...

IMO the only way to compare the power-producing capabilities of two competing EMS units is to have a qualified representative from each manufacturer install and tune their respective products on the same car (or maybe even similarly-prepared cars ala stock car or spec racer rules) and see what the dyno says under the same ambient conditions. Everything else is marketing BS in my book. I am sure that someone like the Hitman would be happy to take on the TECIII.

The HPX ignition system claims 1/10th deg accuracy on the Electromotive web site:
http://www.electromotive-inc.com/products/hpx.html

http://www.computeruser.com/resource...ictionary.html
Definition for: plug and play

(PnP).The ability of a computer to automatically detect and configure new hardware components when they are plugged in, without requiring the user to go through complicated installation procedures.With plug and play, it should be possible to immediately use a new peripheral as soon as it is plugged in.

I would say that neither the K2RD Haltech or the TECIII are Plug and Play. They are closer than many other EMS units, but definitely not PNP by definition. I'm not sure if anybody would get in trouble for false advertising, but this would concern me if I were selling these products.

ZoomZoom

iTrader: (2)

As stated by the Mod, Posts made my Forum members are justified and there is no need for name calling or foul language. I was stating my experience with the units and the Qulified tuner was Peter at PFS. Of course I just expect you to attack him and somehow try to discredit his abilites Ted. You are not a professional at all. Your posts although ask some very important questions are laced with accusatory retorich and are immature at best. I think you could use some people skills. As far as Me tuning it myself. I do not make those claims and regardless if I did or did not Ted the Fact was a competent tuner did. I think you act as if you somehow have the final word on the subject. At no time did I say the haltech was Garbage or say that other ECU's did not have thier place but you somehow think I cannot post my experiences and you feel the need to try and discredit everything I say as Company PR B.S. I stated I do not work for that company or use that EMS. I did not run away and I am not a baby as you try to infer. I am a Professional and I also try to act like an Adult when i debate on a Technical level. The issue of gaining HP from superior hardware is true. Under higher Boost/ compression the Spark is like a candle you can blow out so a higher intesity spark charge will in effect give better combustion from the stock coil. Also its general knowledge that precise timing will allow for more acurate tuning. Somehow I dont see you backing off or acknowledging that I happen to know something that may be of some use for the rest of the Forum members. This will be my last post concerning the Tec EMS units abilites as Ted needs to be the haltech Watchdog of the Forum. I am just another RX-7 owner and Dont see the point in trying to discredit someone who actually has something to add to the conversation. Its been obvious that i do In Fact know what I am talking about. Just because something is popular doesnt make it the best.

AJatx

iTrader: (1)

Hitman has found the stock ignitors and coils to be quite efficient pass 7krpm for a 1 bar application. He's argued that unless you're running 30psi or "high" boost, the stock coils and ignitors are good enough and the CDI is overkill (if not a waste of $$$$ for lower boost application ~1bar).

Both of you attack each other in personal demeanor, Ted seems to be more rough on his methods and Zoom seems more defensive. The unprofessional and cry baby stuff should stop as both have no value to the issue being discussed. So the offensive AND defensive comments could stop. It makes for better reading.

I agree that there is a lot of misinformation being spread around for EMS products. Most of the "claims" are based off somebody's experience of EMS tuning and that "somebody" may not be the best tuner for that EMS product (limited understanding, limited experience, etc).

J

RETed

May I ask what was your last education level completed?&nbsp This is not a flame and is a serious question.&nbsp BTW, the spelling is "rhetoric."


(blah blah blah - snip)
That's what a CDI box is for...


(Stole this off the Haltech Support list...
So what makes the Electromotive unit different if the Haltech reads off the same 60-1 trigger wheel?&nbsp You do know that the Haltech has no problem reading off that 60-1 trigger wheel, right?

(blah blah blah - snip)

This still leaves a lot of holes in your story.&nbsp You still haven't answered my questions on...
Were you just a repair tech or are you qualified to tune Electromotive EMS systems?
Care to tell us what your exact job title was at Electromotive?
What is your experience with Haltech systems?

Are you going to keep ignoring these questions?
I've toned down my "abrasiveness," so I'm expecting answers to these queries...are you going to answer them or skirt around them?




-Ted

The_HITman

I too find it doubtful that anyone would gain 20hp on any system over a Haltech. I also extremely doubt the 10 degree scatter at any rpm unless something is not configured correctly or wired it properly. I have seen E6K's run to well past 10,000rpm with no problems at all with timing. While the E6K may not be anywhere near the ultimate system it does do a very very good job for its price and is far more competent than ZoomZoom is suggesting. If you want to see timing scatter, check out a Microtech for a good scare !

I would not mind looking at the TEC3 but not being able to get the software makes it a problem. Electromotive are virtually non-existent here is Oz. With so many good local products made here. Haltech, Motec, Autronic, EMS, Microtech, etc.. the chances of an import selling are not good. I belive a handful are getting around but compared to tens of thousands of other makes and models.

On the ignition side of things, I could see a bad coil costing 20hp, but not the ECU. Properly configured I have tuned engines that will pass 600hp on stock 2nd Gen coils, and past 500hp on stock 3rd gen coils. All with zero ignition problems. The 2nd Gen coils I have tested on 13B's pumping up to 28psi and still running the stock NGK BURxEQ spark plugs with their huge plug gap, and still not had spark problems. I still stand by the fact that if everything is working properly there is no need for CDI except for extreme situations.

Anyone that blows an engine deserves everything they get. When tuning on pump fuel it is always advised to loose a few hp rather than push the limit. The fuel quality itself is the biggest issue and not timing scatter. Experience more than a one time run on a dyno will show which settings will give a safe amount of power without risking the motor, so always keep a watchful eye over things after a dyno run. If you need to tune to 1/10th of a degree when using pump fuel then I find that person to be rather foolish when pump fuel quality can require shifts of 3 or 4 degrees.

I find it funny how so many people defend automotive ECU's almost to the death. I have seen brainless idiots over here go to fists because they believe their cheapo Microtech is the best system you can get because the fastest drag racer uses it. Its not until you explain that the racer gets his ECU for free under sponsorship and only requires it for idle and WOT that they calm down. For me, I look at what we were running 3 or 4 years ago and how we all thought ECU's were so powerful and great. Give it another 3 or 4 years and you will all look back and laugh at how we were fighting over small features. I know that in the present we all need to make decisions, but with a few exceptions almost all of the ECU's will run the engine quite OK. Some a little better than others, and some criminally bad, but so long a you pick a brand that you know works reasonably well, has the support for backup, and you trust, then you cannot go wrong. I tune all the brands out there, but the only one I am a dealer for is Haltech because of its high capabilities and service levels for its price. I can almost always grab an E6K off the shelf and stick it onto any engine and get very good results without a fuss. And that is the purpose of buying an ECU in the first place.

I can remember Electromotive taking Haltech to court many many years ago for breach of patent, and loosing quite badly when Haltech had an older and more directly applying patent. Just thought I would mention it. :-) From what I understand it was the reason why Electromotive were not real-time programmable for a long while.

Anthony Rodrigues

ZoomZoom,
Give up! There is no merit or capability of any other unit no matter how you want to approach it, "On the Seventh Day God Created Haltech", The rest of the worlds experience and/or results are totally irrelevant. Get with it boy!
-Anthony

RETed

Doh!
Don't you love it when the Microtech dealers beg...



-Ted

RICE RACING

Hitman is not saying there is no merit in other ECU types?

He is just giving his point of view based on his broad experiences the way I see it?

Kurgan

Haltech
---------
Affordable
Support
Broad user base
Quite popular on Rotaries

TEC
-----
More $$$
More Features
Tighter timing (who needs this for pump gas)
I've never seen one in person
Never seen one run a rotary
Never seen a support forum
Never seen any car running one

Both are quite competent systems. If you have to be better than the Jones', buy the TECIII. If you want the new kid on the block, buy the TECIII. If you want support that is practically unmatched in my bookd (thanks to the hitman and the mailing list that BDC set up years ago, plus numerous other avenues), buy a Haltech.

If you want the King **** of **** Mountain ECU, get a Motech and shut up!

They are all good units. Buy whatever you can work with. Buy whatever your tuner has experience with. Buy what you want.

I bought Haltech. I'll buy the E11 when it comes out too.

kim307

iTrader: (1)

HITman has spoken. This is getting interesting as he is arguably one of the BEST Haltech tuners in the world (ok...little exageration, but pretty much). He's the only ECU tuner that I know that goes "tuning tours" around the world.

Even with NO, ZERO experience with standalone ECUs', I find ZoomZoom's claim of 20hp just by swapping out the EMS hard to swallow.

HITman, are you gonna be at the Sevenstock this year?

Jay Kim

RETed

I'm surprised this thread isn't closed too?



-Ted

Evil Aviator

It was a close call, but so far I think that there is merit in keeping it open. I usually give the EMS gurus a bit more leeway because of thier supposed maturity, but I have been rather disappointed in the conduct demonstrated in the last couple of days.

IgoSlow

How much more is the TECH III running.. I like the idea that their harnest fit stock plugs and it's PURDY too .. =) And nice features.. I was in the process of buying a haltech from RPM but my dumb bank can't seem to lcoate his bank... BUt goign back tomorrow to see if i can't get the wire transfer to complete.. I wouldn't mind getting the tech III from shane racing as they are pretty good about shipping and even returning... Does the TECH II they sell use a new harnest that fit stock plugs??? OR is it an ecu that plugs up to the stock harnest.. cause my harnest is shot to itty bitty peices.. +( anyone have a spare 3rd gen harnest?? 5 speed PLEASE PLEASE.. (in good condition that is, good price too).