thewird's 20B Track Beast Project Finally Started :D
05-15-13, 11:54 AM
#326
Now that the car is put together and running...
How about doing a retrospective on the build, maybe in this thread, or maybe in a separate thread? You know, where you look back and say, 'if I had to do it again, I would...'
- buy this part instead of that?
- build this from scratch instead of buy something and modify it?
- use this supplier instead of that guy?
- wait longer to get that part instead of getting screwed by courier/brokerage fees?
That way, we can all learn best practises to do something like this.
Obviously you made a lot of good choices with super results. But there must be something you would improve on...(like budget for a new tranny, up front).
Just saying...
How about doing a retrospective on the build, maybe in this thread, or maybe in a separate thread? You know, where you look back and say, 'if I had to do it again, I would...'
- buy this part instead of that?
- build this from scratch instead of buy something and modify it?
- use this supplier instead of that guy?
- wait longer to get that part instead of getting screwed by courier/brokerage fees?
That way, we can all learn best practises to do something like this.
Obviously you made a lot of good choices with super results. But there must be something you would improve on...(like budget for a new tranny, up front).
Just saying...
05-15-13, 02:51 PM
#328
Now that the car is put together and running...
How about doing a retrospective on the build, maybe in this thread, or maybe in a separate thread? You know, where you look back and say, 'if I had to do it again, I would...'
- buy this part instead of that?
- build this from scratch instead of buy something and modify it?
- use this supplier instead of that guy?
- wait longer to get that part instead of getting screwed by courier/brokerage fees?
That way, we can all learn best practises to do something like this.
Obviously you made a lot of good choices with super results. But there must be something you would improve on...(like budget for a new tranny, up front).
Just saying...
How about doing a retrospective on the build, maybe in this thread, or maybe in a separate thread? You know, where you look back and say, 'if I had to do it again, I would...'
- buy this part instead of that?
- build this from scratch instead of buy something and modify it?
- use this supplier instead of that guy?
- wait longer to get that part instead of getting screwed by courier/brokerage fees?
That way, we can all learn best practises to do something like this.
Obviously you made a lot of good choices with super results. But there must be something you would improve on...(like budget for a new tranny, up front).
Just saying...
05-16-13, 09:08 AM
#329
I'm just taking about, sourcing the core 20B, rebuilding it, dropping it in, then getting it broken in.
The tranny is phase 2.
And the journey for the ultimate tune is never ending.
Please advise the others on your recommended approach for a 20B upgrade...and cost factors, if you care to share.
The tranny is phase 2.
And the journey for the ultimate tune is never ending.
Please advise the others on your recommended approach for a 20B upgrade...and cost factors, if you care to share.
05-18-13, 11:38 PM
#330
Haven't updated in a while, been so busy. I had planned to take the car to VIR this weekend a while ago but I have so much on my plate right now I parked the car after coming back from Sigma last weekend. Too many people are counting on me to get their cars built, repaired, and tuned that I can't afford a weekend off plus I would have had to put at least 2 days into my own car for some repairs and changes.
Anyway, starting where I left off. So after installing the Apexi ATS silencer, the car had the desired affect and lost at least 100 rwhp which is exactly what I wanted. Getting ready for Sigma I changed the diff fluid which was surprisingly still clear considering its been in there 2 years. I also changed the engine oil and the tranny obviously got fresh oil in there which I overfilled by like a liter hoping to get some more reliability. I also finally redid the turbo oil drain to fix the oil leak on the car and properly installed my catch can with a drainback into the pan. And that got me ready to hit the track again.
So then I ran the car at Shannonville with the Sigma crew. I was a lot gentler on the tranny but then I realized the car had a problem. It no longer handles like it used to
. It is no longer the nimble FD I once knew that could dive corners on a whim and come out screaming. Basically the front weight is quite noticeable as its 65 pounds front heavy and I also took out a lot of weight from the rear by removing the hitch, amp, water tank, water pump, and the hatch is now carbon fiber too. The car lags turning in and then the power is difficult to apply due to the crazy torque and power. I played with the suspension and tire pressures all day trying to get it to hook and turn-in properly. I managed to get the car to hook but I had the tire pressures so low the car felt like a boat and it still didn't solve the turn-in problem. I barely did my old Shannonville lap time but the car was slow as hell in the corners, the time was made up in the straightaways which isn't the way to do it at all. Then the best part was the wastegate dump broke at the weld just before the time attack which defeated the purpose of the silencer so the car regained its lost hp and I ended up going 3 seconds slower trying to tame the beast. I also popped the ECU fuse on the cool-down lap of the time attack so I had to be towed off the track, what good timing eh lol. Good news though is tranny held up but i was being really gentle with 3rd gear.
Here's some data from one of the laps... Coolant temps climb pretty fast but I do have the Evan's coolant in there so higher temps are to be expected. Intake temps seem to be good so I'm going to try to lower the water temps by splitting the v-mount air and forcing some of it to the rad. Though the higher temps might also be related to the extra backpressure from the silencer which is shown in the 2nd picture. I'm getting 30-40 PSI of backpressure pre-turbo and around 1750*F exhaust temperatures. Also, notice the lack of full throttle lol.
*the red circles are the back stretch at Shannonville
All in all it was a good day and I learned what I need to work on the car now which is handling. For the next track day I'm going to swap my springs front and rear to put the heavier springs in the front. I had 900 lbs (16kg) springs in the front and 1000 lbs (18kg) springs in the rear and now the 1000 lbs ones are going in the front. I also notice now that my tires aren't wearing on the inside so I'm going to be adding at least 1 degree of camber all around so my car is going to have the mad cambered look >_> but it should help the turn-in and grip around corners. I will be finally connecting the boost controller and speed sensor so I can raise the boost in 4th gear and up to take advantage of that 20b.
Honestly, I wouldn't change a thing. It's exactly what I wanted to build and has surpassed my expectations in performance. The only exception would be if I didn't need to rush to make DGRR, I would have put the extra effort to move the engine back 3-4 inches and down 1-2 inches which would have helped the cars balance. Of course this doesn't matter for 90% of 20b builds as nobody intends to track them seriously.
Given an infinite budget I would have done a drysump with a T56 magnum bolted to it and an 8.8 cobra rear end. But of course that isn't the case lol.
The overall damage was around 25k in PARTS ONLY. I did everything on the car with the exception of anything that was welded on the car which Dave did for me.
Now my car was built a very specific way (my way) and the build was done in 6 weeks to make DGRR which is probably some kind of record for a 20b build start to finish. I probably spent a little more then I needed to given the tight deadline as I ended up with a bunch of extra parts but no more then $600 I'd say. I got a lot of extra stuff most people wouldn't need/want like a very expensive turbo, electric water pump, excessive lower intake manifold, v-mount etc. and theres probably more I'm not thinking of at the top of my head.
Anyway, a 20b could be built cheaper given a budget but the good old saying applies here, "you get what you pay for". I wouldn't have done it any different. Anyone building a 20b is going to keep it for a long time so if you cheap out on it, your gonna have to live with it. And the best time to do something is during a big build, making changes later just causes issues and ends up costing more in the end. Do it all once, do it right without being a cheap **** and you'll be happy.
Mr. Jenkins, this winter?
thewird
Anyway, starting where I left off. So after installing the Apexi ATS silencer, the car had the desired affect and lost at least 100 rwhp which is exactly what I wanted. Getting ready for Sigma I changed the diff fluid which was surprisingly still clear considering its been in there 2 years. I also changed the engine oil and the tranny obviously got fresh oil in there which I overfilled by like a liter hoping to get some more reliability. I also finally redid the turbo oil drain to fix the oil leak on the car and properly installed my catch can with a drainback into the pan. And that got me ready to hit the track again.
So then I ran the car at Shannonville with the Sigma crew. I was a lot gentler on the tranny but then I realized the car had a problem. It no longer handles like it used to
. It is no longer the nimble FD I once knew that could dive corners on a whim and come out screaming. Basically the front weight is quite noticeable as its 65 pounds front heavy and I also took out a lot of weight from the rear by removing the hitch, amp, water tank, water pump, and the hatch is now carbon fiber too. The car lags turning in and then the power is difficult to apply due to the crazy torque and power. I played with the suspension and tire pressures all day trying to get it to hook and turn-in properly. I managed to get the car to hook but I had the tire pressures so low the car felt like a boat and it still didn't solve the turn-in problem. I barely did my old Shannonville lap time but the car was slow as hell in the corners, the time was made up in the straightaways which isn't the way to do it at all. Then the best part was the wastegate dump broke at the weld just before the time attack which defeated the purpose of the silencer so the car regained its lost hp and I ended up going 3 seconds slower trying to tame the beast. I also popped the ECU fuse on the cool-down lap of the time attack so I had to be towed off the track, what good timing eh lol. Good news though is tranny held up but i was being really gentle with 3rd gear.Here's some data from one of the laps... Coolant temps climb pretty fast but I do have the Evan's coolant in there so higher temps are to be expected. Intake temps seem to be good so I'm going to try to lower the water temps by splitting the v-mount air and forcing some of it to the rad. Though the higher temps might also be related to the extra backpressure from the silencer which is shown in the 2nd picture. I'm getting 30-40 PSI of backpressure pre-turbo and around 1750*F exhaust temperatures. Also, notice the lack of full throttle lol.
*the red circles are the back stretch at Shannonville
All in all it was a good day and I learned what I need to work on the car now which is handling. For the next track day I'm going to swap my springs front and rear to put the heavier springs in the front. I had 900 lbs (16kg) springs in the front and 1000 lbs (18kg) springs in the rear and now the 1000 lbs ones are going in the front. I also notice now that my tires aren't wearing on the inside so I'm going to be adding at least 1 degree of camber all around so my car is going to have the mad cambered look >_> but it should help the turn-in and grip around corners. I will be finally connecting the boost controller and speed sensor so I can raise the boost in 4th gear and up to take advantage of that 20b.
Now that the car is put together and running...
How about doing a retrospective on the build, maybe in this thread, or maybe in a separate thread? You know, where you look back and say, 'if I had to do it again, I would...'
- buy this part instead of that?
- build this from scratch instead of buy something and modify it?
- use this supplier instead of that guy?
- wait longer to get that part instead of getting screwed by courier/brokerage fees?
That way, we can all learn best practises to do something like this.
Obviously you made a lot of good choices with super results. But there must be something you would improve on...(like budget for a new tranny, up front).
Just saying...
How about doing a retrospective on the build, maybe in this thread, or maybe in a separate thread? You know, where you look back and say, 'if I had to do it again, I would...'
- buy this part instead of that?
- build this from scratch instead of buy something and modify it?
- use this supplier instead of that guy?
- wait longer to get that part instead of getting screwed by courier/brokerage fees?
That way, we can all learn best practises to do something like this.
Obviously you made a lot of good choices with super results. But there must be something you would improve on...(like budget for a new tranny, up front).
Just saying...
Given an infinite budget I would have done a drysump with a T56 magnum bolted to it and an 8.8 cobra rear end. But of course that isn't the case lol.
The overall damage was around 25k in PARTS ONLY. I did everything on the car with the exception of anything that was welded on the car which Dave did for me.
Now my car was built a very specific way (my way) and the build was done in 6 weeks to make DGRR which is probably some kind of record for a 20b build start to finish. I probably spent a little more then I needed to given the tight deadline as I ended up with a bunch of extra parts but no more then $600 I'd say. I got a lot of extra stuff most people wouldn't need/want like a very expensive turbo, electric water pump, excessive lower intake manifold, v-mount etc. and theres probably more I'm not thinking of at the top of my head.
Anyway, a 20b could be built cheaper given a budget but the good old saying applies here, "you get what you pay for". I wouldn't have done it any different. Anyone building a 20b is going to keep it for a long time so if you cheap out on it, your gonna have to live with it. And the best time to do something is during a big build, making changes later just causes issues and ends up costing more in the end. Do it all once, do it right without being a cheap **** and you'll be happy.
Mr. Jenkins, this winter?
thewird
05-19-13, 03:23 AM
#331
I could very well be wrong, but I was under the impression that, generally, more negative camber results in more grip, but less turn-in. And also, if all else fails, to regain some balance, you could always try using a rear ballast.
Btw, your car is ridiculously awesome. Gives me wet dreams, haha. Way to go with the build!
Btw, your car is ridiculously awesome. Gives me wet dreams, haha. Way to go with the build!
06-04-13, 01:40 AM
#333
Just thought I'd give you guys an update. I did a whole bunch of suspension changes in an effort to try to make the car handle better. I took the 18k (1000 lb) springs that were on the back and put them on the front as planned and then put 14k (~800 lb) springs in the rear thanks to Jimmy that gave me a pair. Maxed out the camber, added more toe in on the rear and re-set the castor.
Tested the setup this past Sunday at CSCS. The car worked leaps and bounds better then before, I could actually feel the rear and balance it with the throttle where before it almost felt like it was disconnected from the car. Turn-in is much improved also but the car pushes immediately after turn-in which makes it difficult to go fast around the slow corners. I am also wasting too much time balancing the car coming out of corners instead of accelerating.
It's definitely a step in the right direction but more work needs to be done. Major problem being the front push and being unable to power out of corners properly. I should also add I am quite rusty so I not only need to improve the cars handling, but I need to relearn my driving so I can tame the beast. Current plan is buy a 12" wide rim for the rear, buy a new set of tires, install an adjustable tri-point sway bar, and drop the front spring rate back to 16k (900 lb). And can't forget to try to get more camber out of the adjustment bolts along with rescaling the car again.
Another interesting fact is how ridiculously high my water temperatures get. I get to around 250*F after a few laps, boy does it climb fast. I think its due to the excessive backpressure from my buttplug but unfortunately I can't remove it until I upgrade transmissions.
Anyway, thats where I'm at now. I don't think I realized how much work it would be to make the car work like its ment to after it was "complete". I got a long road ahead of me.
thewird
Tested the setup this past Sunday at CSCS. The car worked leaps and bounds better then before, I could actually feel the rear and balance it with the throttle where before it almost felt like it was disconnected from the car. Turn-in is much improved also but the car pushes immediately after turn-in which makes it difficult to go fast around the slow corners. I am also wasting too much time balancing the car coming out of corners instead of accelerating.
It's definitely a step in the right direction but more work needs to be done. Major problem being the front push and being unable to power out of corners properly. I should also add I am quite rusty so I not only need to improve the cars handling, but I need to relearn my driving so I can tame the beast. Current plan is buy a 12" wide rim for the rear, buy a new set of tires, install an adjustable tri-point sway bar, and drop the front spring rate back to 16k (900 lb). And can't forget to try to get more camber out of the adjustment bolts along with rescaling the car again.
Another interesting fact is how ridiculously high my water temperatures get. I get to around 250*F after a few laps, boy does it climb fast. I think its due to the excessive backpressure from my buttplug but unfortunately I can't remove it until I upgrade transmissions.
Anyway, thats where I'm at now. I don't think I realized how much work it would be to make the car work like its ment to after it was "complete". I got a long road ahead of me.
thewird
06-04-13, 08:31 AM
#335
thewird
06-04-13, 08:54 AM
#336
overside oil coolers ducted to the bumper? One of my oil coolers is ducted, the other has a motorcycle radiator fan.
What about a little bit of water injection?
this is a bandaid solution but my car was already hooked up for it, I just moved my headlight washer down to in front of the radiator haha
What about a little bit of water injection?
this is a bandaid solution but my car was already hooked up for it, I just moved my headlight washer down to in front of the radiator haha
06-05-13, 10:27 AM
#337
Well I took the plunge. I placed an order for for 17x12 CCW rims and a fresh set of tires, 295 and 335 width. I'm also ordering a tri-point front sway bar.
I've been considering taking off the butt plug and try retarding the timing to back off the power some. This is probably a less straining way of doing it. Not sure why i didn't try it before.
thewird
I've been considering taking off the butt plug and try retarding the timing to back off the power some. This is probably a less straining way of doing it. Not sure why i didn't try it before.
thewird
06-05-13, 09:05 PM
#339
Well I took the plunge. I placed an order for for 17x12 CCW rims and a fresh set of tires, 295 and 335 width. I'm also ordering a tri-point front sway bar.
I've been considering taking off the butt plug and try retarding the timing to back off the power some. This is probably a less straining way of doing it. Not sure why i didn't try it before.
thewird
I've been considering taking off the butt plug and try retarding the timing to back off the power some. This is probably a less straining way of doing it. Not sure why i didn't try it before.
thewird
06-05-13, 11:30 PM
#340
Anytime you restrict the exhaust on a turbo car your going to build heat. Turbos like minimal to zero back pressure. If you are worried about breaking trannies just lower the boost and de tune your engine or run a throttle stop limiter. Running lower engine timing can cause engines to overheat as well.
My car is so quiet lol... (mine is at the end)
Some pictures thanks to Charles Spivak...
thewird
06-15-13, 06:25 PM
#345
So I went to a random dyno day today, had to go home to get my slicks and 2 people sitting in the back of the car to keep it from slipping. I also cut off the restrictor so this is uncapped power at 16-14 pounds of boost. 525 ft/lbs of TORQUE come from the 16 psi in the midrange and then it falls off to 14 psi by redline but still makes 621 rwhp. Also, to note the car was being pulled to 8,000 RPM so the RPM is off by 1k so the HP number should be higher if you move the torque to the right.
I would have made a graph to correct it but then you get the idiots who don't understand physics saying im making up numbers so this is what the dyno said, plain and simple. The torque speaks for itself. Also, large ports don't make torque my *** lol.
thewird
I would have made a graph to correct it but then you get the idiots who don't understand physics saying im making up numbers so this is what the dyno said, plain and simple. The torque speaks for itself. Also, large ports don't make torque my *** lol.
thewird
06-15-13, 08:46 PM
#347
Rotary Enthusiast
Looks good... new transmission next?
06-16-13, 11:14 AM
#350
I've since learned that the HP would be the correct one and torque is the one that is reading high do to the RPM misreading. So torque is high by about 12% which means is actually around 460 ft/lbs torque which is still a lot of torque. Can't wait until I get a proper transmission so I can start cranking up the boost.
This is dyno plot is without the restrictor so I'm not sure what I was making with it. Maybe around 500 rwhp? I'll only know if the water temps are better after I hit the track again.
thewird
This is dyno plot is without the restrictor so I'm not sure what I was making with it. Maybe around 500 rwhp? I'll only know if the water temps are better after I hit the track again.
thewird