nik

There is a gas station in ottawa that claims to sell this fuel as of 2005, Topia Greenstop on woodward avenue.

I went there recently to buy some and they said it's not available yet. Called head office and they think there is no market for it. I think it's ******* bullshit and I propose us ottawa ppl pester them on the phone until they realize there is a demand for it.

The phone number for their head office is 613-594-4777, i use selection #4 on the automated response. I usually just ask when the fuel will become available, and they usually say they don't know.

The main benefits of this fuel are for us big turbo guys, basically any high boost high power car in ottawa would gain from this when properly modified.

Nick86

iTrader: (1)

How much different is the E-85 from the "Ethanol Blends" at places like McEwens? I'm assuming it has to do with the concentration and quality of the Ethanol in the fuel. Am I way off base?

Funny, my brother in law's BMW and Suzuki motorcycles both say explicitly NOT to use ethanol blends at all.

nik

Its 85% ethanol, whereas most ethanol blends are 10% ethanol.

Nick86

iTrader: (1)

So I was basically on track.

I've heard that some manufacturers are reluctant to warrantee engines run on E-85, as they haven't had long term tests of the stuff in different climates. I think it has more to do with their intrests in petrolium companies though.

Ethanol will eventually take off in Canada, but not until it gains momentum in the States first. From waht I saw last month, places like the Midwest are pushing it quite hard. The problem is that in Canada, the places that could benefit from producing ethanol are also the provinces richest in petrolium.

We'll see!

nik

Many newer vehicles are FFV (flex fuel vehicles) that are ok from the factory to run it. So there are tons of cars out there that can use it, just if its not priced according to the increased fuel consumption then nobody will want to use it.

The problem with this particular station is that it advertises as being the first in canada to ahve it. They even have a pump labelled E-85, just nothing in the tank.

23Racer

Thought I would pop in on this a bit. Most cars that are not flex fuel cars really shouldn't use E-85 on a regular basis. The ethanol content at that high of a ratio severely corrodes all non-stainless steel items in your fuel systems. This means that with a steady diet of E-85, your filters will corrode from the inside, your injectors will corrode or gall on the sliding surfaces and your fuel pumps (depending on the type) can wear very quickly and become useless.

There is no problems with the performance diminishment due to less stored energy in alcohol, but the non-flex fuel fuel injected cars really are not designed to operate on ethanol and the engine mapping as well as the fuel system components just won't work well for very long. The cars need specially coated lines and stainless steel fuel systems, as well as higher compression to take advantage of the higher octane in E-85. You also need larger fuel tanks to maintain vehicle range as the lower energy stores in E-85 substantially reduces your mileage. Turbo cars are a good alternative as long as you replace the fuel system components as you can up the boost to maintain the power levels.

There are tons of studies that have been done that show that non-flex fuel cars really shouldn't run on E-85, but a very strong corn lobby and a number of Mid-West Senators and Governors in the U.S. are pushing for it very hard. Why, think about it a bit.

The Federal U.S. Government provides strong subsidies to the U.S. Corn Farmers. The Corn Farmers hold a lot of cloat in the Mid-West. Political animals in those areas want to be re-elected and making the farmers rich is a good way to do this. Everybody becomes better off except car owners. Lets also ignore the fact that it has been revealed that it takes more energy to create ethanol from corn than the ethanol contains, so ethanol is a net energy loss to the system. Until we have a very in-expensive energy source to provide the electricity to create ethanol from corn then E-85 doesn't make sense.

You may think that I am against E-85, but I am not. It is a good alternative fuel that can reduce the load on the petroleum industry. My concern is the government and fuel companies putting this product out into the marketplace onto unsuspecting consumers and having major issues with a large number of them and the fuel getting dumped. Tell people the whole truth, slowly introduce the product into areas with high concentrations of flex-fuel designed vehicles and find a source that can provide the processing power and it will be successful.

Eric

nik

I agree totally that people should inform themselves before trying a new fuel. I was talking to a guy just yesterday that wanted to run it in his 1987 van, which I strongly doubt would be a FFV.

However, I don't see where anyone has not told the truth about this fuel? I've never read anything suggesting to use it in all vehicles. It always says make sure you have a compatible vehicle. I think appropriate warnings at the pump itself would do the trick (of course some people would ignore them, and still **** up their cars).

It's really not that hard to modify your current fuel system for this fuel, if you are upgrading stuff for a big turbo anyways. The key things this fuel will affect are the rubber parts, like injector orings, and any rubber hose in the system. Those will not last unless they are compatible. The other parts like injectors and fuel pumps are more of a long term deal, and many parts that are "incompatible" just mean they haven't been tested.

Nick86

iTrader: (1)

The states are where the real "propaganda" is, and more to what 23Racer is talking about I believe. (correct me if I am wrong).

While we were in Indiana, there were billboards and radio adds talking about how E-85 was a "Patriotic" fuel, and how it was a way to protect American intrests etc. But in fairness, what they were really pushing was AMERICAN flex-fuel vehicles. It was a sort of "Buy one of these and you'll be supporting America every time you turn the key" style campaign.

If people see it as an alternative to gas - like diesel - then it will be an easier sell. Campaigning to get people to convert their existing cars will be a guaranteed failure.

Sizzlenut

FYI
Ethanol corrodes most fuel tanks pretty quick. I hear it chews through most that aren't made of steel.

RXciting

How long term though? A few months? A few years, a decade?

I would be rather hesitant of running this through my pump considering it would corrode anything not made of stainless steel. Even injectors for that matter.

Are race application aftermarket pumps safe for this fuel, since they're deisgned to be used in vehicles running Ethanol or Alcohol? What about injectors, where would one get injectors that would not be damaged from long term exposer to this fuel?

nik

Saying it will corrode everything but stainless is simply not true, carbon steel is not a problem. The only metal that could be a problem is aluminum, and anodized aluminum like most of the aftermarket stuff is not an issue.

Either way, since the stuff is not available, I can't test any of our fuel system parts in it. When it does become available, I will test our AL fuel rails in there.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

Regular gasoline requires more energy to produce it than can be extracted from it (let alone what is extracted from it). Alberta tar sands with 15% oil content (common number for the stuff being extracted right now) requires more energy to extract the oil from the sand than the oil contains, let alone the rest of the process! Both Gasoline and E85 are not energy sources, but energy mediums.

I don't know that the US politicians and lobbies that are pushing it want it to be used in current vehicles not designed to be FFV (I could be wrong). I think they're pushing it and wanting more vehicles to be FFV too.

I think E85 is a good idea. Critics point to the fact that you cannot supply north america with the available corn supply. Corn is a starting point. They're working on efficient ways to get ethanol from other types of plant material.

Certain Dodge Caravans have been FFV for a long time, it may be even as far back as the late 80s. (early 90s I'm sure of) I believe that you have to change the oil to FFV compatable stuff. GM has a few vehicles that are FFV and Ford's 4.0L SOHC V6 has had FFV varients in many vehicles (Ranger, Sport Track, I think the explorer too).